D8 - Phone Line

**jafar** · 30-09-09, 09:55 PM

So, another "issue"

Trying to troubleshoot my ADSL connection dropping out, and thought I've removed all devices from the line. Today the previous owner dropped by and told us that the alarm is infact connected to the phone line.

Now, I don't know where to begin to check.
I'll probably get a central splitter installed, but in the mean time, I would like to disconnect the phone line from the alarm (not being used anyway atm)

What's the best way to go about this?
First I really want to check that it is connected. Can't seem to see any phone line going in or out of the alarm box though.

**WIDEMR** · 30-09-09, 11:35 PM

Have you looked inside the box, or just none on the outside?

On the inside of the box there may be a line, and 99% it will be an old style 611 socket maybe maybe as mode3, if you disconnect the lead from the panel but the lead still pluged into the 611 socket it may disconnect all or some of the outlets around the house, or if you unplug the lead from the 611 socket it may do the same if the pins are old they tend not to spring back and make contact.

I install ALOT of central filters, and most of the time have been able to increase dsl speed and sync, even in some brand new houses were the cabling is all cat6, but may have had some bad joints going from socket to socket in a daisy chain, plus removing several filters and just having 1 helps alot.

Best way is to get a registered telecommunications cabler to install a c10 100e inside on the wall next to the first socket into the lead in cable (if they know the teslstra A2A requiremnts) and that will then filter the whole house, then get a cat5 or 6 cable run from the filter to a dedicated new socket thats jsut for the modem (this will be the only un filtered socket) by doing this even will all the old cabling connected onto the line (filtered side) i have seen huge improvements in alot of cases.

By doing the above, the cabler can also leave all the excisting cabling off while you test the dsl speeds ect, if its still poor this will give a clear indication that the problem is NOT cabling on your side, it may be telstras infrastructure or the isps ect. (or your modem)

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 01:34 PM

Thanks for your suggestion, WideMR

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 03:07 PM

Another question, just changed the phone number (P71E) to my mobile number.
Is there an option to generate a test call to my number, just to be sure it works?

**SCT** · 01-10-09, 03:31 PM

From

ADSL troubleshooting & your alarm system
Alarm systems, when wired correctly for monitoring, process the phone line first before it has the opportunity to travel throughout the premises or to you modem.

This is referred to as Mode 3 wired. The purpose of wiring your alarm system to Mode 3 configuration, is to ensure it is able to dial out in the event of a break in, regardless if the phone has been accidently left off the hook or if the phone is forcibly removed.

If the ADSL line is the same line being used in monitoring the alarm system, then a good quality Central / Remote Splitter must be fitted to the premises ensuring that there is no broadband signal being processed by the alarm.

In short, alarm systems hate ADSL broadand and modems hate alarms.

Failure to do so can result in ADSL drop outs, slow speeds, synchronisation problems, phone lines cutting out etc.

MCM make a handy ADSL filter designed to work with your alarm system.

However, as Widemr has suggested, a central filter such as this (any electrical wholesaler will be able to supply) is the go but it may need a bit of rewiring depending on your current setup. If you're not sure about doing or checking this yourself, it's probably best left to an experienced tech.

If, as you have stated, you are not intending to have the alarm panel dial out you should be able to just unplug the panel phone lead from phone socket (not the connection to the control board) it is connected to.
A mode 3 socket is usually identifiable by having a double crescent on the cover and/or the number 611 on it. A 611 socket is designed to allow this kind of disconnection without affecting any other equipment.
However...Again Widemr is correct in advising that these sockets can sometimes loose the spring tension in their pins and not close properly when unplugged.
My advise would be to give it a go..unplug your panel from the 611 socket and then check to see that all of your other phones (and internet connection) are still working.
If yes...cool, you're done! If no...call a tech to check it out for you.

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 03:56 PM

Yeah I will get a central filter installed.
At this stage, I just want to test the call back function of the alarm, can't seem to find anything in the stupid manual :|

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 04:33 PM

Wait, one thing I am not sure here.
There doesn't seem to be any phone lines going in and out of the alarm unit.
Does it mean that it is not connected?

**SCT** · 01-10-09, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by jafar

Yeah I will get a central filter installed.
At this stage, I just want to test the call back function of the alarm, can't seem to find anything in the stupid manual :|

"Callback" is a feature used by the installer or monitoring centre when carrying out a remote session in order to connect to the panel to upload a copy of the systems database, carry out remote programming or arm the system via a dedicated software package.
Essentially, they call the panel from the software, hang up and it calls their computer back and it answers the incoming call.
This feature has to be setup in the system programming before it can be done.
It's not something that an end user would normally use as you need to
-know the installer code and the panels download access code.
-have a copy of the remote access software and a compatible modem.
There are other methods of connecting to the panel as well but they will still require the same software and access codes.

Note: There is also an additional bit of hardware available that will allow you to call your system from your phone (or any DTMF phone anywhere in the world) that will allow you to carry out certain functions such as arm/disarm from a remote location...Hell, if you really want to you can connect it to an X-10 system, call it from your car on the way home and have it make you a cup of coffee, turn on the aircon and switch on the TV for you...really!!, but this has nothing to do with "Callback"

As "Callback" is an installer function, you wont find any reference to it in the user manual (other than maybe to say that the installer can do it if necessary).

**SCT** · 01-10-09, 04:57 PM

Actually, scratch that last part about all the X-10 stuff.
I just re-read the thread and remembered that it was a NESS panel we were discussing.
Been working on NX panels all day and have got them on the brain..sorry!

**WIDEMR** · 01-10-09, 06:18 PM

Few things in regards to your post SCT..

1. yes that MCM filter is ok for mode3 ect, but again if you filter the alarm, you filter the WHOLE HOUSE (or everything after the alarm) so that filter is ok if the modem is to be pluged into that filter, as in at the alarm.

IMO the c10 100e is a much better filter then that mcm and that clipsal labled one, and the ONLY filter that can be installed into Telstras lead in cable before the first socket (which may be the mode3) as per A2A doc, because telstra is responsable up to and including the first socket, they are letting us alter things under A2A but has to be by there guidelines, and they only want the C10100E (witch has a telstra part number maked on it) because they will then be responsable for that filter, even tho a cabler has installed it.

Also ONLY registered telecommunications cabler can install a central filter were its hard wired. so wouldnt suggest diy, so as SCT suggested, get a 'registerd' cabler

**WIDEMR** · 01-10-09, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by jafar

Wait, one thing I am not sure here.
There doesn't seem to be any phone lines going in and out of the alarm unit.
Does it mean that it is not connected?

As i asked... no lines / socket inside the main panel box itself?

Theres no phone lead comming off the main board, thats pluged into anything?

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 06:35 PM

Originally Posted by WIDEMR

As i asked... no lines / socket inside the main panel box itself?

Theres no phone lead comming off the main board, thats pluged into anything?

No, not that I can see.
Here's the pics I've taken of the main box:

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by WIDEMR

Few things in regards to your post SCT..

1. yes that MCM filter is ok for mode3 ect, but again if you filter the alarm, you filter the WHOLE HOUSE (or everything after the alarm) so that filter is ok if the modem is to be pluged into that filter, as in at the alarm.

IMO the c10 100e is a much better filter then that mcm and that clipsal labled one, and the ONLY filter that can be installed into Telstras lead in cable before the first socket (which may be the mode3) as per A2A doc, because telstra is responsable up to and including the first socket, they are letting us alter things under A2A but has to be by there guidelines, and they only want the C10100E (witch has a telstra part number maked on it) because they will then be responsable for that filter, even tho a cabler has installed it.

Also ONLY registered telecommunications cabler can install a central filter were its hard wired. so wouldnt suggest diy, so as SCT suggested, get a 'registerd' cabler

Thanks for the brand suggestion

Yeah I am going to get a licensed cabler to do it for me, don't you worry.

**WIDEMR** · 01-10-09, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by jafar

No, not that I can see.
Here's the pics I've taken of the main box:

Those pics shows only the outside of the panel, the phone line (if there is one) will come into the panel through the wall with the alarm cables, and the socket may be inside.

Only way to know is to to open the panel, which may set off the sirens and need to be reset ect.

**jafar** · 01-10-09, 07:16 PM

Ah thanks

**Tastech** · 02-10-09, 04:15 AM

Typing in P66666666E into the keypad will tell the panel to send a dialler test this works on V4.5 and onwards not sure about older versions
but will only work if
A Panel has a phone line connected to it
B panel has a receiver number programmed in P70E
c Panel is not programmed as a local

D8 do not like raw adsl and will multiple dial they will send the data but dont decode the handshake due to adsl tones and keep sending data

in saying that any tech worth his salt will put an adsl filter on any line that alarm panel is on

some techs say they are not required but if you monitor a line that has adsl onit and no filter the panel may manage to dial the contro; room and spit out an alarm before the adsl arcs up and starts corrupting the panels dtmf tones with its own

so a panel may get away with its weekly dialler tests but a multiple zone burglary may be lucky to get an alarm and restore on a zone but other dtmf traffic from the panel is corrupted by the adsl

**jafar** · 02-10-09, 12:35 PM

Thanks, Tastech.
How do I tell which version my alarm is?
Documentation is non-existant, except from the one I downloaded from the net (which is wrong anyway)

**SCT** · 02-10-09, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by WIDEMR

Few things in regards to your post SCT..

1. yes that MCM filter is ok for mode3 ect, but again if you filter the alarm, you filter the WHOLE HOUSE (or everything after the alarm) so that filter is ok if the modem is to be pluged into that filter, as in at the alarm.

Yep..thats what its for, not as a central filter.

IMO the c10 100e is a much better filter then that mcm and that clipsal labled one, and the ONLY filter that can be installed into Telstras lead in cable before the first socket (which may be the mode3) as per A2A doc, because telstra is responsable up to and including the first socket, they are letting us alter things under A2A but has to be by there guidelines, and they only want the C10100E (witch has a telstra part number maked on it) because they will then be responsable for that filter, even tho a cabler has installed it.

(Bold mine) Agreed, and as you correctly point out, Telstra are resposible up to and including the first socket. Many installers make the mistake of putting the mode 3 socket "inside" the panel. While this is certainly more secure, my interpretation is that is it incorrect as the 611 socket, generally being the first socket, should be installed externally (usually adjacent to the panel) where the Telstra techs can access it if necessary. Unfortunately a lot of Telstra techs will just disconnect the plug if there is any problem with the premises phones/adsl and leave it at that rather than sort the problem out...I guess this is why this incorrect practice has become so common.

Originally posted by SCT
a central filter such as this (any electrical wholesaler will be able to supply) is the go but it may need a bit of rewiring depending on your current setup. If you're not sure about doing or checking this yourself, it's probably best left to an experienced tech.

Wasn't necessarily recommending any particular kind of filter, just pointig out that there are several options available as to the method.
After re-reading my earlier post it does seem that I am suggesting that Jafar could do it himself.
This is of course incorrect. As Widemr points out,

ONLY registered telecommunications cabler can install a central filter were its hard wired

**WIDEMR** · 02-10-09, 05:42 PM

Actually just to be picky Telstra does allow the first socket to be located in a locked panel in some cases....

Extract from Specification 012882 (A2A)

Security alarm panels are often concealed in wardrobes or cupboards. The first TO may be installed in a wardrobe or cupboard, for connection of the alarm panel, as long as it is readily accessible to the customer for testing purposes in accordance with Clause 9.5.1.1. The first TO shall not be located inside the alarm panel unless:
• the panel can be opened without the use of a tool or a key or, where a key is required, the customer has the key to access the unit; and
• the customer is able to easily plug a standard telephone into the TO for testing.

Not sure what 42hour tamper or sirens have an affect with Telstras wishes, but its not mentioned

Having said that, again being the first TO (socket) it must be a Krone keystone 8P4C switching (if mode 3) for new installs (not a 611 or any other brand socket!) But i am yet to see 1 setup using that, exept mine. The Krone switching keystone jacks are expencive compared to what you can pay for a 611!

Extract from Specification 012882 (A2A)

600 series sockets, 6P modular sockets, or any brand or type of 8P modular socket not prescribed in this Specification, shall not be used for the first socket unless it is the original first socket and is reused.

**jafar** · 02-10-09, 07:06 PM

OK, a bit more update.
Just put P66666666E into the panel, the phone icon came up and after a while it went flashing. No calls received on my phone.
On the manual it says that if it's flashing it means communication error.
Probably either not connected in the panel or connected to another line that we have here (not activated, no dial-tone)

My question:
1. If the phone line for the alarm is not active, would it still affect my ADSL connection?