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Thread: Solar Grid Connected Economics + Batteries?

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    Default Solar Grid Connected Economics + Batteries?

    The ATA has released an interesting economics study of adding battery storage to Grid Connect Solar Installations.
    The study includes new systems & retrofit.
    The links in the reports will take you to detailed reports in PDF form. All Free to download.

    Thought some here would be interested in the info & discussion.
    Also the free . See end of post for description.

    Household Storage Analysis

    16 Nov, 2015


    In the most detailed economic analysis yet produced in Australia on household battery use with solar, a new report by the Alternative Technology Association (ATA) says grid-connected battery storage should become economically attractive for many homes from around 2020.
    The report found that the economic value of batteries would be unattractive for many households in the next few years, but this would turn around by 2020 given the projected falls in battery costs.
    While batteries have great long-term potential to transform the electricity grid, household bill savings would depend on a range of factors including location, behaviour and grid electricity tariff.
    The report investigated the economic value of adding batteries to a new grid-connected solar system for a range of scenarios including: 10 locations across Australia, electricity consumption data for typical working couples and young families, three different grid tariff types and different sized solar systems.
    It used the ATA’s new solar-with-battery economic feasibility tool.
    “There’s a lot of hype in the community about battery storage, and while we think it is a great thing, we urge people to understand their own electricity consumption patterns and choose the most suitably sized and designed solar and battery systems,” said Damien Moyse, the ATA’s policy and research manager.
    “Different consumption levels and different lifestyles require different solutions – no one size fits all,” Mr Moyse said.
    “At today’s prices, most Australian households won’t be able to achieve a 10-year return on their investment – which is the typical lifetime of a well-designed and operated battery system. But by 2020, this will change for an increasing number of homes.”
    Mr Moyse urged people to keep household energy efficiency firmly in mind when considering battery energy storage:
    “Having a more energy-efficient home will mean you need smaller sized batteries, which will ultimately be better for your overall energy costs and the environment,” he said. “Batteries need to be considered in the context of an overarching, holistic energy management approach – whether that be for a household or business.
    “We recommend people read this report and consider what it means for their individual situation and consumption patterns.”
    to read the report.
    to learn more about Sunulator.
    Source:

    Also a report on Towns & Estates unplugging from grid & producing all there own power needs.

    Regional towns and new housing estates could function viably and economically off the electricity grid, a new report reveals.
    The report, What Happens When We Un-Plug: Exploring the Consumer and Market Implications of Viable Off-Grid Energy Supply, found many Victorians could unplug from the grid by 2020 and use renewable energy systems with battery storage.
    It has been produced by the clean energy social enterprise and the
    A number of scenarios were examined for the financial viability of stand-alone power systems in inner-Melbourne, Werribee and Bendigo. It was found that some regional towns could be viably off the grid today.
    Tosh Szatow, director of Energy for the People, said it was exciting that by 2020 cost would no longer be a barrier to individuals and communities generating and storing their own power.
    “Our research shows that if we plan well, there is a huge opportunity for energy customers to save energy and money and at the same time make our energy grid more reliable,” Mr Szatow said.
    “It also means that communities can be involved in buying back their local energy grid and investing directly in local energy generation and storage.”
    The report found new housing developments could become energy self-sufficient precincts. It also pointed towards the need for ensuring stand-alone power infrastructure is managed and installed in a way that does not risk leaving stranded assets.
    Damien Moyse, the ATA’s policy and research manager, said the cost-effectiveness of stand-alone power would be good for electricity network companies as well as consumers.
    “The stand-alone approach would give electricity network companies the opportunity to sell assets that they can no longer afford to maintain, and creates the potential to unwind cross-subsidies from urban to regional consumers,” Mr Moyse said.
    “Considering our research focused on Victoria, which has low levels of sunlight compared to most other states and low electricity prices, stand-alone power would be even more attractive in other parts of the country.”

    To read a summary of the report,
    To read the full report,
    Source:


    Sunulator simulation tool

    Welcome to Sunulator, a free tool which estimates the economic feasibility of a solar-battery system.
    What is Sunulator?
    Sunulator is a simulation tool that can help you plan for grid-connected solar power. Unlike most other solar calculators, Sunulator uses half-hourly consumption and generation data over a whole year to estimate how much solar generation will be consumed onsite versus exported. Based on electricity tariff information, it then calculates the impact on your electricity bill and projects the savings over a 30-year time frame. Financial results include payback period, net present value and return on investment.

    Scenarios
    Sunulator allows you to compare the results for several scenarios, e.g different sizes of solar array or panel orientations, or different amounts of battery storage.

    Community investment options
    In Australia most solar installations are owned directly by the electricity consumer, usually a homeowner. Sunulator can also assist community organisations to install solar systems via additional investment options:


    • A community organisation installs a system and sells electricity to the host site
    • A solar system is installed through a loan from a community organisation
    • A community organisation acts as an electricity retailer.

    Economic returns are estimated both for investors and the host site.

    Requirements for using Sunulator
    You need some experience with spreadsheets and some knowledge of electricity data, e.g tariffs and kW vs kWh. You also need Microsoft Excel,
    version 2007 or greater, and system permissions to run macros etc.







    Regional locations
    If you want to use Sunulator for locations outside the eight Australian capital cities, please download the file for your state listed below. Save it to the same place you’ve saved Sunulator, and it will automatically look into the
    file to find the information it needs. There are 177 locations in total; “TMY”
    stands for “Typical Meteorological Year”.








    If you need help with Sunulator, please consider the ATA’s
    Acknowledgements
    We would like to acknowledge the help of our partners in providing this service including:


    • The Mullum Trust

    source:
    http://www.ata.org.au/ata-research/sunulator

    Cheers, Tiny
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    It is very interesting to see where this is leading too and some straight talk regarding the feasibility of these systems.
    Say you were in an area of maximum sunlight, had the best quality Batteries available and managed the system to its fullest, it still wont be 'FREE' electricity as first there is the installation costs, general maintenance and repairs over the projected life of the installation and the replacement of panels and Batteries at the end of their productive life.

    Some areas may not be able to be 'Stand alone' and may need 'assistance' from another form of generation be it wind, water or fuel of some sort.

    At least it appears that this study is addressing many if not all these subjects and paving the way towards better generation of power.
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    Standalone power is only going to happen if the electricity suppliers play their part correctly.
    If off-grid supply means reduced infrastructure required for the energy company(especially reduction of peak load demands) then
    this cost saving must be passed on to the household that is willing to invest in batteries that enables the cost saving.
    In other words it is only fair if the energy supplier subsidises the cost for the batteries. That means the energy supplier
    buys huge amounts of batteries for a lower cost and sells the batteries to the household at this wholesale cost. So no profit (or loss) from the sale
    but a gain by not having to provide so much infrastructure for the peak loads. They invest in the batteries instead but the customer still pays for it.
    This would kick start a major industry even way before 2020 if these guys wake up now and battery demand will become so high that Australian companies might become involved to produce them, especially the mining for lithium in Australia of which we apparently have plenty of.
    A win win for everybody involved and the government would not have to pay a cent, although that brain dead institution could stop still spending 10 Billion ontax breaks for coal exploration and focus a wee bit on something less 19th century.
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    Sounds like a plan, nomeat, problem is, convincing someone to run with it.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Sounds like a plan, nomeat, problem is, convincing someone to run with it.
    That's exactly what I thought.

    The forecast is that power co's will just let the people fund their own systems & therefore will reduce the power co's profit, which will drive the price of power up which will cause more people to disconnect & self fund their own power, spiralling the Power co's into a crash & burn.
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    If this takes off the only way the power companies can remain solvent is to increase supply charges,

    If Peak Lithium doesnt step in first

    The U.S. Geological Survey produced a reserves estimate of lithium in early 2015, concluding that the world has enough known reserves for about 365 years of current global production of about 37,000 tons per year
    Even though 365 years of reserve supply sounds very comforting, the point of the EV and stationary storage revolutions is that current demand will shoot up, way up, if these revolutions do happen.
    The 100 Gigafactories scenario could come true.
    And if that happens, the 365-year supply would be less than a 17-year supply (13.5 million tons of reserves divided by 800,000 = 16.9 years).

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    Apparently the authors of that survey are not aware that the lithium of spent batteries can be almost 100% recycled.
    Also NOBODY really knows how much Lithium is REALLY down there until we dig for it.
    There are signs that Australia has a lot although there is hardly any real exploration done yet.
    Wish I could buy shares in some Aussie Lithium explorer but I can't find any listed, don't have the cash anyhow.

    I remember back in the 1970's that we were told we only had 30 years of oil left at the current use back then. LOL
    Those articles are just the usual dribble of somebody who does not see all the facts.
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    Off grid lithium is already economical for the DIY people, especially if you use your energy wisely. All you really need is 3kw of solar, 1000ah of lifepo4 cells, a decent dedicated lifepo4 solar charge controller, a small 350-500w wind generator and that's it. The problems many come across at the moment is retailers only offer modified or standard lead acid charge controllers, which stuff lifepo4 over a couple of years.

    For the future, we will see rural communities setting up their own local interconnected grid, running on solar and wind with a central storage people can use when they get low on energy and business can tap into. This will blackout proof their area, lower costs dramatically and provide an economical energy base for communities. If they add a decent size back up genny and run it on seed oils which would be grown and processed in the local area, would give rural communities self sufficiency in energy.

    Aus has the second largest reserves of lithium and when your cells give up, you can expect 50% back for recycling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Apparently the authors of that survey are not aware that the lithium of spent batteries can be almost 100% recycled.
    Also NOBODY really knows how much Lithium is REALLY down there until we dig for it.
    There are signs that Australia has a lot although there is hardly any real exploration done yet.
    Wish I could buy shares in some Aussie Lithium explorer but I can't find any listed, don't have the cash anyhow.

    I remember back in the 1970's that we were told we only had 30 years of oil left at the current use back then. LOL
    Those articles are just the usual dribble of somebody who does not see all the facts.
    Always come down to price to extract not size of potential reserves and EROEI.
    Recycling lithium from batteries is five times more expensive than extracting it from brine.

    Surge in demand is going to create surge in price.



    The ocean is full of hydrogen, but it costs more to extract, store and burn it than the energy it would produce.

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    This has just had the last panel connected but I ask the same question, what use is this when the Sun goes down??
    If you need another generation system to meet the night shortfall, to run that costs just as much as it would if that system ran 24/7 on its own.

    The article claims it can power some 33,000 homes which great but look at area it occupies to do so, somewhat more than any fuel fired generator station needs to power up 10 times that many homes.
    Last edited by gordon_s1942; 23-01-16 at 02:52 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dishtrackted View Post
    Recycling lithium from batteries is five times more expensive than extracting it from brine.
    Be interested to know where you got that information from, according to my soruces it's a very simple process and having seen the insides of a few different cells, with lifepo4 cell, all you have to do is take out the contents, seperate them which is easy and then repack the cell. My suppliers have already offered to teach someone how to do it, so they can maintain their market share down here. Sending them back to the maufacurer is not economical at all. They say they'll suppy new cases and the membranes, haven't gone to deeply into it as don't have any intentions of going that far, but it wouldn't take much to get them to provide me with the recycling process specs.

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    Recycling seems to depend on who you talk to about it like Aluminium that paid over a Dollar per Kilo but now you cant give the damn stuff away.
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    Recycling depends on demand and whether the politcal system is after short term profit growth or long term sustainability. Good recycling provides sustainabilty, prpfit growth the opposite. There will be a market for Lithium recyclng, once demand grows to ouststrip supply.

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    Tiny,

    Thanks for the interesting/useful post. We're soon to come off the 60c feed-in rebate here, and I've been wondering whether batteries (so called "soalr optimisers") would be worthwhile. The Powerwall has certainly generated a lot of hype. My feeling was that these systems are still too expensive for a typical household...

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    Quote Originally Posted by RossV View Post
    Tiny,

    Thanks for the interesting/useful post. We're soon to come off the 60c feed-in rebate here, and I've been wondering whether batteries (so called "soalr optimisers") would be worthwhile. The Powerwall has certainly generated a lot of hype. My feeling was that these systems are still too expensive for a typical household...
    How will that affect you regarding costs of using electricity?
    Do you have a single meter only system that when the Panels are generating, it reduces what ever you used before or the 2 meter system where one records power generated and the other Power used which I believe is the system used in NSW ?

    If you have the second system, will the Supplier give you a credit at the same rate they charge for Power used, ie say they charge 20 cents a Unit for Power used, will they give you the same rate for Units you have generated?
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    Default awesome

    anybody know if hho is worth it

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrd584 View Post
    anybody know if hho is worth it
    I take it you are talking about Brown Gas technology? Oxyhydrogen.

    If so I have heard of the technology being pushed as a green fuel for cars, trucks etc,

    In home power generation, it's just another fuel to run your generator.
    Will a converted generator last long on this type of fuel?
    Is there actually any generators that are designed & built for the purpose (not converted to)?
    You still need to generate power for electrolysis to produce the Oxyhydrogen (HHO) from H2O.
    This fellow thinks there is merit in it - albeit as only part of the power generation.

    I prefer something more passive than a fuel generator.
    Is it cost effective as opposed to Solar, Wind & Micro Hydro power generation??

    If you have some info supporting it's worth; I'd be interested & happy to be enlightened.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Man makes mini battery power station in his home after buying six Tesla Powerwalls.
    Gold Coast local Clayton Lyndon recently invested $80,000 to have six residential Tesla Powerwalls installed, essentially making a mini battery power station in his home.
    Mr Williams said he expected Mr Lyndon will break even in four to five years based on full consumption.

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    Saw that article, don;t know who did the mathematics as they don't add up?
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    Agree,I've seen other articles on the pay back and its cheaper to pay the electricity and invest in something else other than batteries.
    Surely he need to invest in energy saving how do you spend nearly 20 g on power a year?
    Turn off a few lights put a timer on your pool pump

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