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Thread: Solar Grid Connected Economics + Batteries?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrd584 View Post
    anybody know if hho is worth it
    Not at this stage. The equipment is very involved and the H2 O2 breakdown using solar and electrolysis is inefficient.
    There are new technologies in the horizon (I mentioned somewhere in the science forum) but it looks like 10-20 years before something like that could be available for consumers.


    Everybody says lately that battery storage will get cheaper eventually. Some say in 5, some in 10 years.

    That all depends on the market.
    Here I don't think so with the current Government pushing for coal and avoiding/gutting any incentives for renewable energy.
    Our power companies are offering the power walls for hideous prices, utter rip off.

    It took about 10 years before CFL energy saver bulbs were available in Australia after Europe had them. I don't think things will be different here either.
    Totally unthinkable to have Australian companies producing batteries despite enormous amounts of Lithium available here.

    So don't hold your breath for cheap batteries or other storage methods of electrical energy.

    Maybe power walls from China one day could theoretically work out to a useful break-even but I would be very wary. Imagine burning 'hover boards' but 1000 times more powerful.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 14-09-16 at 07:16 PM.
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  • #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Totally unthinkable to have Australian companies producing batteries despite enormous amounts of Lithium available here.
    agree; why weren't we at the forefront of this technology with our resources?

    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    So don't hold your breath for cheap batteries or other storage methods of electrical energy.
    maybe there is hope though,
    Cheers, Tiny
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  • #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    agree; why weren't we at the forefront of this technology with our resources?


    maybe there is hope though,

    Aluminium and steel? I don't know where the reporters get their info from.

    Apparently the Zcell will use the existing Zinc Bromine technology (Z for zinc?) which is explained here:

    The Aussie company Redflow makes these batteries and this is the one they want to put in the for household use:
    What they somewhat only indirectly mention is that the the battery has to go offline for a period of time for the automated maintenance procedure every 1-4 cycles. Otherwise great features, 100% DoD, endless shelf life, super safe.
    ... but price almost $20,000 installed

    However up to now they have mainly been in professional use for remote telecommunication systems but by marketing them as a solar battery backup for private consumer use I would think if the demand is there, that they have the potential to drop considerably in price as the chemical components are very cheap with the electrolyte (main component by weight and volume) is not even consumed as all. The pumps, valves and electronics should become significantly cheaper with larger production runs.

    Electrical Storage only makes sense once a reasonable break even becomes feasible, so it up to these guys to do something about production (and initially be easy on profit margins) to get these things under $10k ASAP otherwise I see no future.

    They must also become direct deliverer, no distribution middle man for this to work.

    It is time to get made in Australia affordable again. Our distribution systems and their mandatory 100% profit margin sucks big time.
    I have been down that road too many times and lost too much money. In the end every body screws you here. It is not just because of the cost of labour that nothing works here.... better stop the rant!
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 14-09-16 at 09:37 PM.
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  • #24
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    It's easy enough to legislate to discourage poor behaviour of the power companies and encourage people to invest in storage or modify their use.

    The first thing to fix is the fee the electricity companies charge just to read your meter. OK, it's really the connection fee, which runs at about $120 per quarter for me.
    So before I have even flicked a switch on, I have to fork out $120.

    If this fee is minimised, lets say $10, then electricity providers will want to recover it in the electricity price. So instead of 22c/kWhr they might charge 28c/kWhr.
    The result is the more electricity you use, the more you pay. The less you use, the less you pay and the pricing encourages that.

    Next is to make use of the smart meters the providers claimed would provide better services.
    There are four meters on mine.
    The first can be charged at a fixed rate, lets say 28c/kWhr and that rate can only be changed with 90 days notice.
    The second can be Off Peak. Also charged at a fixed rate like 12c/kWhr but the power company controls when it is turned on and off.
    Nothing new so far.

    However, there is room for a floating market price meter.
    The third meter can be a price that is changed live by the electricity company, but the user controls the price at which it turns on and off.
    The provider doesn't know what the user price the user sets their meter at, but they can control the load by varying the spot price.

    The same can be done for grid connect feed in.
    The first is a static price feed in. Lets say 5c/kWhr that the power company will pay for any power you feed in any time.
    The second is a floating price that is tied to the price on the third meter. For example: Spot-12c.

    The point of all this is to allow everybody to profit from power shortages and discourage power surpluses.
    So if the spot price drops below off peak price, then the power companies are going to turn on everything to make use of power they cannot otherwise sell.
    Of course if there is a power surplus which they cannot sell, why should or would they be forced to pay you anything for it. When the buy price hits 0 cents,
    you can either give that electricity away to the grid for free or you can do something about it.

    One can see that there is a clear advantage in using less power in general and particularly at peak times.
    During off peak times there is no reward in providing power, but there is during peak times and considerably more so.

    If the peak price rises to 30c/kWhr, then most people will turn off their power at 28c/kWhr because it is cheaper.
    The power company could raise the static price but then more people while switch to the floating price and the more they would have to pay the feed in.

    They control the price, but the customers control the consumption.
    Anybody who can store power stands to make a clear profit based on the how much the companies are charging customers and still gives them the ability to purchase bulk power.

    Finding batteries on the surplus market is no different to solar panels. You just have to know where to look.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    I think a Choice? study claimed a Tesla power wall would take 23 years to break even in a connected system. I think they have a ten year warranty..........

    Sent from my 6045B using Tapatalk

  • #26
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    The economics of batteries is rather simple just like it is with Solar Panels.
    So with solar panels a good price is $0.80/W If you can get panels cheaper than this you're winning, if they're more expensive then you're paying too much.

    So it is with batteries measured in $/kWhr. I haven't worked out what a good price is for batteries yet, but currently you can find second hand batteries for about $0.083/Whr.

    Grid electricity now costs me $0.25/kWhr or $0.00025/Whr which means that I have to get 332 full discharge cycles out of the batteries to break even.
    I like to go by 50% discharge, which is 664 cycles or about 2 years to break even and double that again for 25%.
    What this doesn't consider is how quickly the deep cycling will kill the batteries.

    When you apply this logic to expensive lithium batteries, it's quite a long payback time. I just worked this out for my old man and it was a 12 years to break even.
    So either battery prices have to drop or lifespan increases or electricity prices increase.

    The way to force the electricity companies to play the game is to make them to buy at a price fixed price with relation to the price they sell.
    Float the price and let the market solve the problem.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    "The way to force the electricity companies to play the game is to make them to buy at a price fixed price with relation to the price they sell.
    Float the price and let the market solve the problem."

    Totally agree, our problem is that we are not organised in a body to do exactly what you have stated.


    This is my system that has evolved since 2013
    Total PV generation is 8.8KW
    Battery storage is 19.2 KWh usable (GEL system 38.4KWh)

    Since I installed the batteries, I have zeroed the bill and in credit aprox $10 per month.
    Last edited by Percul; 25-10-16 at 09:23 AM.

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    So I'm revising my current prices for buying in at surplus.
    I recently picked up 2kW of panels for about $0.35/W.

    Surplus battery prices are currently about $0.10/Whr (ie a 12V 100Ah battery (1200Whr) sells second hand for about $120)


    I'm now faced with a new problem.

    I have plently of grid connect inverters which I currently don't use. Instead I use off grid inverters from 24V and 48V.
    It would make a lot of sense to have the grid connect inverter connected to gross offset any incoming power.
    The problem is that the PV array is about 400V. It's not an issue for me to wire batteries into a 400V string, but regulating them then becomes a problem.

    I'm really looking for ideas of how best to make use of everything that I have.
    There's no real techincal limitation to what I can do, only a legal and safety limitations.
    Obviously I don't want to cause a dangerous situation. Safety and Legality are the limitations.
    Technical skill I have in as much abundance as sunlight.

    The issue really is how to make use of 400V grid connect inverter with an unlimited supply of evil genius + PV + batteries.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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  • #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    So I'm revising my current prices for buying in at surplus.
    I recently picked up 2kW of panels for about $0.35/W.

    Surplus battery prices are currently about $0.10/Whr (ie a 12V 100Ah battery (1200Whr) sells second hand for about $120)


    I'm now faced with a new problem.

    I have plently of grid connect inverters which I currently don't use. Instead I use off grid inverters from 24V and 48V.
    It would make a lot of sense to have the grid connect inverter connected to gross offset any incoming power.
    The problem is that the PV array is about 400V. It's not an issue for me to wire batteries into a 400V string, but regulating them then becomes a problem.

    I'm really looking for ideas of how best to make use of everything that I have.
    There's no real techincal limitation to what I can do, only a legal and safety limitations.
    Obviously I don't want to cause a dangerous situation. Safety and Legality are the limitations.
    Technical skill I have in as much abundance as sunlight.

    The issue really is how to make use of 400V grid connect inverter with an unlimited supply of evil genius + PV + batteries.
    You should be able to rectify the incoming 400v to any voltage you like, say 48v then regulate the battery charging at that 48v.

    My micro hydro unit produces 370VAC which reduces voltage drop over the long distance to the batteries. It is then rectified to 12VDC for charging the battery bank & regulated at 12VDC. The regulated 12VDC is shunted to a 240VAC hot water element. Nice mix eh, thank the Rainbow Power Co. for that.

    Now for a grid connected system you should be able to tap into the incoming solar 400v & rectify it down to battery voltage, then when battery bank is full switch it back thru to the grid feed in with a simple switched circuit. Tying the battery bank into the 240V supply when needed shouldn't be too hard either.
    Any safety & legalities at play are only if the system can feed power into the grid when it shouldn't. Don't want to fry your power company linesman.

    Hybrid Grid interactive with battery backup systems are already in operation so it must be legal to do so.
    Some interesting reading @
    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

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    look at the sunny islands
    dont say linux if i wanted it id install it

  • #31
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    Solar hot water is a stored energy that has a pretty good pay back.

    In central Qld I havent used electricity for years to heat water,saves maybe $1000 a year* ( x about 5 years so far) cost me $2500ish to install

    *

    For me to do batteries I would lose my 44 cent feed in tariff so it really doesnt add up

    ..................................
    A good solution would be a community owned generation and storage facility where everyone shared the benefits and the profits funded more community projects

    Democratise power and cut the corporation and the guys in the suits out of the loop
    Last edited by Dishtrackted; 10-03-17 at 12:41 PM.

  • #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post

    I have plently of grid connect inverters which I currently don't use. Instead I use off grid inverters from 24V and 48V.
    It would make a lot of sense to have the grid connect inverter connected to gross offset any incoming power.
    I can't see the point of going off grid (unless there is no power available at all).

    Apart from the fact you can at least get something for unused generation, the service fee at around a dollar a day means you are connected to biggest backup generator around at a reasonable price.

    In Victoria, the standard feed in tariff is rising to a minimum 11.3 cents per kwH from 1st July 2017 which is great news.

    And at roughly $350 in service fees to stay connected to the grid, why buy a generator ? If you need extra power, the grid is still cheaper than a petrol powered generator.

  • #33
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    yes and no.
    The situation admin is that I have a talent for scrounging.
    So panels, Batteries, Inverters and cabling cost me next to nothing.

    What does cost me is the guy coming and reading my meter. That costs me about $120 per quarter.
    The only grid electricity I use is to power things which my off grid inverters don't like.
    Toaster, Heater, Aircon or anything with a high startup current like the washing machine and the fridge.
    The fridge I keep on grid only because it sometimes has a high startup which can trip and I come home to find all the food spoiled.

    If it's on grid, then obviously I'll reduce my bill down to almost nothing, except that $120.
    I go off grid and then I lose that safety net, even though I have a generator.
    And I'm not sure if I can go on-grid with a feed in tariff to offset the connection fee without having to fork out for some kind of official set up.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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