Phased Lock Loop on LNBF

[highkick05]

Just query regarding this technology (PLL). I know it's used with those professional type LNB setup's

Do normal LNBF's typically use this technology (PLL) or is it some special thing that keeps and converts the input stream as close as possible to the output signal/stream/data it's sending to the receiver and not in standard LNBF's..


I've just noticed a Titanium dual output C-BAND LNBF that has this technology included in it . then there's quite a good review on it , which seems to give quite impressive results.

This be worth buying ? my other option would be a WSI's ESX242 or a satking dual output C-BAND LNBF, which to me looks like a 'strong' type brand. There's even a brand called Supermax.

Confused which to buy cos even the ESX242 with its 13k noise figure and impressive 70db gain rating is said to be just hype/marketing crap perhaps a lie and really just 15k/65db (also funny to note Titanium is the one saying this , creator of PPL in a C-BAND LNBF)

To maintain the output signal in phase with the input
signal, most LNBs rely on an oscillator. For C-band LNBFs,
the oscillator frequency would typically be 5.15 GHz.
There is a small deviation of this theoretical frequency,
due to imperfections in the crystal, temperature fluctuations,
etc. This is why regular C-band LNBs struggle with
signals that have low symbol rates or high FEC values.
To get greater stability, high-end LNBs for professional
use often use an additional external 10 MHz reference
signal, combined with a PLL oscillator.
The PLL oscillator basically uses the input phase to synchronize
the internal oscillator, thus compensating for
the oscillator’s deviations. The result is a perfectly timed
output signal, which is in phase with the input signal.
This requires a rather complex circuit and hence the
usually higher cost of PLL LNBs; though not so with Titanium’s
PLL series of LNBFs.

Answered my own question again

This true or correct about normal LNBF

[mtv]

In the simplest of terms PLL provides frequency stability (Eg: doesn't drift).

No, PLL is not typically incorporated in the design of cheap LNB/F's.

[highkick05]

In the simplest of terms PLL provides frequency stability (Eg: doesn't drift).

No, PLL is not typically incorporated in the design of cheap LNB/F's.

On some C-band LNBF's by the look, some TP's are out of reach.

Does frequency stabilisation (PLL) provide that you can get these TP's, OR does the argument for lower noise 13k and stronger gain 70db grant that you can reach these harder to get TP's.

[mtv]

PLL helps maintain stability, which can improve reliability, as does lower noise.

Gain within an amp also amplifies self-noise as well as signal.

The key to reliable reception is capturing a sufficiently strong signal, but most importantly, signals must have low BER and high MER.

The best way to improve weak signals is to use a larger dish.

[hos here]

So how does temp effect the LO. I find my Zinwell ( on 1.8 m solid) works better at night on difficult tp's. Also have a combo C / Ku from 'Pro Logic Inc' on a 3.7 m solid spun alu 'Andrews' - better at night too. With respect to Intelsat 19.


Hos Here

[mtv]

Local Oscillator stability is affected by temperature and all have a tolerance figure.

Cheap LNB/F's typically have a tolerance of 1MHz.

Commercial quality LNB's are typically 25kHz with many as low as 5kHz.

Combining a high tolerance oscillator with PLL circuitry substantially increases signal stability.

The old rule of 'you get what you pay for' applies.

Changing atmospheric conditions also play a part and signals, whether they be terrestrial or satellite, fluctuate all the time.

[gordon_s1942]

So how does temp effect the LO. I find my Zinwell ( on 1.8 m solid) works better at night on difficult tp's. Also have a combo C / Ku from 'Pro Logic Inc' on a 3.7 m solid spun alu 'Andrews' - better at night too. With respect to Intelsat 19.


Hos Here

I read an article that said twice a year to expect a problem with receiving a signal because the Sun was aligned directly behind the Satellite and the Dish.
I am sure Austar posted a notice to this effect many many years ago as the Sun transitioned during the seasonal change.
During this very brief period the radiation of the Sun booms into the focal point of the LNB and depending on the shape of the LNB, how hot the case got and when you combined the two, there could be a problem.
After more than 30 years of satellite transmissions and Dish's over just about every inch of the Planet along with more robust electronics, research and development has almost eliminated this completely.
Now any problems would be more likely due to a component fault aided by the heat of the Sun.

[tristen]

I read an article that said twice a year to expect a problem with receiving a signal because the Sun was aligned directly behind the Satellite and the Dish....

Yes, solar outages do occur twice per year but has nothing to do with LNB local oscillator frequency stability, the current thread topic.

However, as it has been mentioned, there is a brief explanation of what constitutes a solar outage at , for those who might be interested.

There is a more graphic representation and explanation of solar outages at .

[irdeto2engineer]

These are some quite good cheap LNB's I use. No need to buy the tricked up PLL. I use twin out which means one port vertical one port horizontal so I can feed to multiswitches and have multiple satellites going to mutliple stb's. You can also get dual and quad out which means each port has V & H if you wanted to use say one dish feed to 4 stb in a home.

[irdeto2engineer]

Now if you really want high end use with Microwave filters and LNB's spend a couple thousand US$ and buy some Norsat gear. then you will need a nice mount that costs several hundred US$ as well. Norsat LNB's are single polarity so you need 2 sets. Also they weigh a lot so you will need to have a good set of strong lnb arms or some extra support. You can see I have an extra support for the Patriot mount on clients dish to make sure they don't droop and go off signal.

[irdeto2engineer]

In the simplest of terms PLL provides frequency stability (Eg: doesn't drift).

No, PLL is not typically incorporated in the design of cheap LNB/F's.

In most cases unless you are broadcasting not really an issue for home users. However if you are in an area with high terrestrial interference no cheap Titantium will help you would need a proper set of microwave filters and LNB's like the Norsat setup I put pictures of.

[irdeto2engineer]

I read an article that said twice a year to expect a problem with receiving a signal because the Sun was aligned directly behind the Satellite and the Dish.
I am sure Austar posted a notice to this effect many many years ago as the Sun transitioned during the seasonal change.
During this very brief period the radiation of the Sun booms into the focal point of the LNB and depending on the shape of the LNB, how hot the case got and when you combined the two, there could be a problem.
After more than 30 years of satellite transmissions and Dish's over just about every inch of the Planet along with more robust electronics, research and development has almost eliminated this completely.
Now any problems would be more likely due to a component fault aided by the heat of the Sun.

LOL No solar outages have not been eliminated. However what does help is that the larger dish you use the let time out you have for the solar outage.

A 1.8m maybe be gone for ten minutes or more but a 4.2m or 5m may only lose signal for say 3 or 4 minutes.

[irdeto2engineer]

PLL helps maintain stability, which can improve reliability, as does lower noise. Gain within an amp also amplifies self-noise as well as signal. The key to reliable reception is capturing a sufficiently strong signal, but most importantly, signals must have low BER and high MER.

The best way to improve weak signals is to use a larger dish.

Well a larger dish also allows you to add on extra LNB's. Here is a Prodelin 3m primed on Thaicom5 78.5e kuband. Mounted is a twin output Cband LNBF on 68.5e. Ten degrees you say? isn't that too much? Well it's still as good as a 2.4m solid on the same satellite. It really depends on the strength of signals on the offset satellites you want to receive.

[irdeto2engineer]

So how does temp effect the LO. I find my Zinwell ( on 1.8 m solid) works better at night on difficult tp's. Also have a combo C / Ku from 'Pro Logic Inc' on a 3.7 m solid spun alu 'Andrews' - better at night too. With respect to Intelsat 19.


Hos Here

I don't really like the Zinwells. I live in Taiwan and can get them here. I have found cheaper LNB's I buy from another supplier to be better.

[highkick05]

irdeto2engineer, you seem to have used quite a few LNBF, what brand is good for DUAL or even QUAD output.

I have WSI or Titanium are going to be my 2 options...both sell overseas. WSI look to have shutdown about 3 years ago, many ppl saying they've been ripped off trying to buy them.

Regarding temperature variation on LO stability is this it ?

WSI is saying a LO STABILITY of ±2MHz @ -40°f ̶ 150°f ... this is surely

whereas

Titanium is saying a LO Stability (over temp ex offset) ± 50Khz / ± 10Khz at operational temperature so this is actually .05MHz .. weird, but the Titanium actually has it's fins (cooling fins?) exposed , surely this cools something a bit better
Pitty they don't make their in Dual Output , that has a LO stability of 100Khz, this is right or marketing hoo haa. Anyway I not know why this higher figure is better anyway, I thought 50Khz is smaller would be better.

Surely the Titanium w/ PPL included should kick ass. Are these correct?

Supermax I can't get any specs for this , although it sells in Australia
the Satking one is the same, not enough specs but sells in Australia (sheesh)

[mtv]

Looking purely at the specs you've posted above, the WSI has much poorer LO stability @ 2MHz.

The temperatures quoted are the normal operating range.

Frequency stability will be less outside of the range.

The 50/10kHz of the Titanium is much better.

I reiterate that you must have good signals to begin with, because you can't improve something that isn't there.

[highkick05]

Looking purely at the specs you've posted above, the WSI has much poorer LO stability @ 2MHz.

The temperatures quoted are the normal operating range.

Frequency stability will be less outside of the range.

The 50/10kHz of the Titanium is much better.

I reiterate that you must have good signals to begin with, because you can't improve something that isn't there.

Obviously and definitely, I'll get around to switching the Zinwell back on it prehand to see if their is something else going on with it.

[highkick05]

Now if you really want high end use with Microwave filters

These microwave filters, what do they filter? undesirables like Wifi/Radio/Terrestrial etc power surges everything or just some thing?

Titanium also make a wifi filter LNBF C1-PLL C-band LNBF WiMax 4G LTE WiFi Filter 3.7 - 4.2GHz. Again only Single Output.

I take it Wifi would be a pretty big issue around satellite dishes. I live in a complex with other houses around me, wifi going everywhere. Wish I had the $ to grab those Pro setup's

[B52]

Just query regarding this technology (PLL). I know it's used with those professional type LNB setup's

Do normal LNBF's typically use this technology (PLL) or is it some special thing that keeps and converts the input stream as close as possible to the output signal/stream/data it's sending to the receiver and not in standard LNBF's..

PLL Phase Lock Loop. controls the stability of the output frequency. Standard DRO lnb’s have an internal trimmer adjustment. Each LNB is manually Calibrated at the factory. DRO LNB’s are susceptible to frequency drift cased by temperature variation but the drift can only effect super narrow data transmission. It has little or no effect on video SCPC or MCPC. On your receiver you can manually scan a sat frequency offset it by up to 3 MHz above or below the frequency and you’ll see the receiver will lock on

Most LNB manufactured in the last 6 months use a PLL chip anyway which automatically calibrates the output frequency .

A PLL LNB doesn’t help with weak signal. Using an LNB which output 70dB gain also doesn’t help with weak signal. High gain meaning higher noise floor it helps if you have a very long cable run or if you are ruining more then 4 receivers of the same dish. The industry standard is 60dB…

For weak signal reception you’d be looking at the lowers possible Noise Figure. Claims below 15 ° is BS because it’s already the noise figure of the dish. Most of LNB’s published specifications are Nominal… if they had to be verified by a certified laboratory most won’t meet their published specifications anyway.

I've just noticed a Titanium dual output C-BAND LNBF that has this technology included in it . then there's quite a good review on it , which seems to give quite impressive results.

I was also takes by the fantastic description and the favourite feedbacks and so I got 2 of them.. The dual output with the fins and a single output without the fins.


A simple test concluded that they are just your standard run of the mill LNB with PLL. The fins are just a gimmick and do nothing to improve the reception.
I have 1.8m set on Asiasat 5… receiver tuned to 3960 H SR3000.- many the LNB’s wouldn't even lock including the Titanium. The CL222 and the Mediastar (UHG515N) was able to view the channels. See more here…


The Titanium I have here was used for ½ an hour and I am happy to sell it for $70.- it cost me more then double. PM if anybody wants it.

[highkick05]

B52 , MEDIASTAR do a dual output ? Can't find a website with any lNBF on it

Would you believe just yesterday, both output's on this odrok just amazingly started working.. I can now scan both V's on both output's with no problem AT ALL

I took a plastic bag cover off my positioner motor that I put on the end of it to stop any rain or such getting into it. Plus the dude over back fence I think fixed this old lady's dog alert ssytem thingo wire around the border top of her fence ? f@#k me

Both done at the same time would you believe it happened, so which one would have been the cause ? lol

ok, now after moving the dish it''s back to practically unusable. wind as well not like yesterday calm.

putting the zinwell on now, sick of it