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Thread: Just a question on "faster than light".

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    Default Just a question on "faster than light".

    Watching a Discovery Science channel doco on the universe........

    1/million th of a sec after the big bang, the universe is the size of our solar system.
    mhhhhhh. 9 billion km in diameter!!

    That would suggest that the "energy/particles" that made up the universe at that time traveled many many times the speed of light in those early times.

    Any takers? Trash??
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    Hmmmm vairly interlesting !

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    1/million th of a sec after the big bang
    ...(space)time wasn't 'invented' yet
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    What you're asking is called Cosmic Inflation.
    The description I think is a bit of a cop out, but it was spacetime itself that expanded, not the matter in it relative to that space.
    It's the best fit description compared to observations. The cosmic microwave background is the primary evidence for it. It's very smooth.
    If the universe did not hyper inflate, the microwave background would be lumpy.

    Of course it could be that the big bang as we think of it is an illusion and the inflation associated with it.
    But if that is the case, then you have a lot more problems trying to explain the observations.
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    So? What you're saying is that prior to the Universe, there was nothing, nada, zilch? Am I right? Then "nothing" exploded, and here we are? I find that harder to believe than a supreme being created us. Or made "Something" explode to create us. Strangely enough, in this universe, we have yet to see anything appear out of "nothing" but we do "create" things daily.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    So? What you're saying is that prior to the Universe, there was nothing, nada, zilch? Am I right? Then "nothing" exploded, and here we are? I find that harder to believe than a supreme being created us. Or made "Something" explode to create us. Strangely enough, in this universe, we have yet to see anything appear out of "nothing" but we do "create" things daily.
    To me 'understanding' the Big Bang or Creation, call it what you will is like believing in Religion (Faith) with it depending on who is telling what.
    I was sent Video of one version supposedly supported by a distinguished group of Scientists that claimed that 'everything' was contained in a huge sack and one day (reason unknown) the stitching on the sack was unpicked by the Deity and released the universe.

    We know a lot but in reality we know nothing and dont have the 'language' needed to explain it.

    In my confused way I was thinking of the proposal of 'Bending Space' where bringing two points together means you could just go from one to the other immediately even though the two points can be many light years away.
    This theory was written into that Sci Fi series 'Dark Matter' recently and it made me think if it is possible, are you now traveling 'faster than Light' or is it like a fly going at 1km per Hour inside a vessel that is traveling at 60KPH?
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    I wonder if light is, in fact, the fastest thing, or is there another invisible universe out there that is, in fact, travelling so fast that light never can catch up, nor escape. Sort of like breaking the sound barrier. Speed is only relative (I wonder who proposed the theory of relativity in the first place ) and if an object travelling at light speed in one direction approaches another object travelling in the opposite direction also travelling at light speed, is their speed relative to one another 2C, or is it just C?
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    What you're asking is called Cosmic Inflation.
    The description I think is a bit of a cop out, but it was spacetime itself that expanded, not the matter in it relative to that space.
    It's the best fit description compared to observations. The cosmic microwave background is the primary evidence for it. It's very smooth.
    If the universe did not hyper inflate, the microwave background would be lumpy.

    Of course it could be that the big bang as we think of it is an illusion and the inflation associated with it.
    But if that is the case, then you have a lot more problems trying to explain the observations.
    To me as a perfectionist; that is the biggest cop-out (spin) I've ever read, yet as a student of the universe it is by far the best explanation I've heard or seen.
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    Yeah, I don't like cosmic inflation very much Tiny, but the pieces fit. Not that I am always thinking of other reasons why it might be an illusion of some kind.

    I don't buy into the religious reasons. Yes lsemmens, before the universe there was nothing. Not space, not time. Yes, I know that is a hard concept to grasp and doesn't seem to make sense. But then a lot of things about the universe don't make sense.

    So in terms of cosmic inflation we might say that people are units standing on a big rubber mat. The rule is that you cannot run at any speed faster than "c".
    Now we expand the mat rapidly in every direction, the person standing beside you not running, nor you, are being pulled apart faster than the speed of light.
    You run toward each other as fast as you can (still not exceeding c), but you still appear to be moving apart. When the inflation stops, you still cannot run faster than c.

    If you were at one edge of the mat and another person was on the opposite edge, you would now be so far apart that given all the time elapsed so far even running towards each other at C for 14 billion years, you still have no idea they other person exists.

    The universe is both infinite and finite. It is an infinite universe inside a finite one. This doesn't make sense, how can something bigger exists inside something smaller?
    "c" is the key. If we assume the universe without cosmic inflation is inflating at the speed of light, then if you jump into your spaceship and head off towards the edge of the universe as fast as you can go (speed of light) then, you can never reach the edge of the universe. You can only get further away from it.

    The other unexpected find was dark energy. I can't but help wonder if this is the driver of cosmic inflation. I don't know.
    But, if we assume that dark energy is real, then cosmic inflation becomes real in the future.

    Every point in the universe is moving away from every other point and it is accelerating. Eventually there will come a time where every static point in the universe will be moving away from every other point faster than the speed of light. "The big rip" Where spacetime itself is torn apart at the planck scale and the universe ends.

    The big rip actually makes more sense to me than the other concepts.
    Cosmic inflation being the dominant force in the universe suddenly stops? That doesn't make sense.
    But I'm sure somebody with come up with a clue.

    There are some clues with dark matter too. But I'm still lost even with those clues. It's lack of interaction and it's temperature or lack of that too.
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    Time is faster than light.
    You can have clocks in two remote locations and time will affect both instantly

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    Ah, but there in lies the reason for time. Time (information) travels at the speed of light.
    For if you travel at the speed of light, time=0
    Two clocks in different locations do not exist in the same time anymore than they exist in the same place.
    The distance between them, their velocities and the amount of gravity acting upon them determine how fast time passes for each.

    Time and gravity appear to be two faces of the same thing. Increase gravity enough and time ends.
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    I don't buy into the religious reasons. Yes lsemmens, before the universe there was nothing. Not space, not time. Yes, I know that is a hard concept to grasp and doesn't seem to make sense. But then a lot of things about the universe don't make sense.
    Is the concept of a god any harder to grasp than a concept that appears to make no sense?

    F'rinstance if the universe and all therein just spontaneously popped into existence out of nothing, why do we not see this phenomena as a "regular" occurrence. We can observe the effects of gravity and can even demonstrate those effects as can we see light. We daily see "creation" of stuff, but never see anything just appear out of nothing. The only explanations that make a convincing argument are, either the Universe has always been, or that someone, or something, created it. Scientists and physicists both have yet to create something from nothing. Heck, even Star Trek's replicators only re-arrange atoms, they do not create new things.

    Here's a thought, are we certain that our universe is the biggest thing, or are we just atoms swirling around in some even more gigantic creature's rectum? Are the atoms that we have observed, the smallest objects or are they infinite universes in and of themselves. The creatures thereof, discussing this same topic and, possibly, concluding that they are unique in "creation" not being able to see the BIG picture owing to their size.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    ...... are we just atoms swirling around in some even more gigantic creature's rectum?
    You may be onto something there.


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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Is the concept of a god any harder to grasp than a concept that appears to make no sense?
    It is to me ; if a God created the Universe, then who created God & who created them? They must have been in this universe or another universe to exist, ad infinitum.
    At some time there was either nothing/a starting point or as you say; "the Universe has always been."
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Is the concept of a god any harder to grasp than a concept that appears to make no sense?
    The concept that a God or some 'Being" created the universe makes the least amount of sense because how was said 'Being' created?

    God did it, so shut up !

    Thousands of years ago religions were created (amongst many other reasons)to make people shut up and stop thinking about things like how was the universe created.

    I am an atheist and have never stopped thinking.

    My theory ATM is the Universe is cycling and possibly multiplying :

    The cycle of OUR Universe started from a singularity and expands (accelerates if you like that better) until it all reaches the maximum of speed of light.
    Due to the high speed our space time dimension folds to a cone like shape were it all ends up in the tip which has no dimension:
    A single black hole with the singularity of OUR entire universe.

    This final black hole carrying our Universe is travelling AT the speed of light.
    Well it would be if something still existed standing still next to it.

    ...but who is there to say that is a final stable state?

    Hell no, a new BIG BANG occurs and something new happens:
    Part of the energy and matter ends up faster than light relative to the old universe and the rest slows back down.

    As the old Universe does not exist any more the singularity of each new Universe is standing still
    when their Big Bangs occur and there is nothing that can tell anymore which one would be slowing down and which one is faster than C.

    Because no matter can exist faster than light in each Universe, we can not detect matter from this coexisting Universe
    and no matter can crash into each other.

    So there are two Universes created from the former one that can never meet, however gravitational influences exist between the coexisting
    Universes which we call ATM Dark matter.

    Question is if there is synchronicity between our Universe and the coexisting one. That means does our Dark Universe end at precisely the
    same time as ours? If not, then the Universes are breeding.

    Over the years I have mentioned numerous times on this forum an idea that there is a second universe moving faster than light relative to our
    Universe as an explanation for Dark matter.

    Einstein does not contradict that.

    A proper explanation how all the matter ends up in a singular black hole is still a challenge. I can never get my head around all these dimensions.
    Keep in mind you can not view things in three or even four linear dimensions once everything gets near the speed if light.
    Fact is that we are accelerating towards something and that might be that final black hole near the end of the universe that parts of the universe have already reached as they were
    already moving near light speed at the time of our Big Bang.


    Does anybody want to comment on all that?
    Took me way over an hour to make that all up.... or should I start writing SciFi books.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Ah, but there in lies the reason for time. Time (information) travels at the speed of light.
    For if you travel at the speed of light, time=0
    Two clocks in different locations do not exist in the same time anymore than they exist in the same place.
    The distance between them, their velocities and the amount of gravity acting upon them determine how fast time passes for each.

    Time and gravity appear to be two faces of the same thing. Increase gravity enough and time ends.
    I do not consider time is Information but because it is something we can measure people perceive it as information. I also do not agree the time = 0 if I travel with speed of light. My body will age for the time taken to cover a certain distance with the speed of light.
    I do agree the time will stop for an individual if you increase gravity for him/her enough. Or to the entire population the time will stop if gravity forces increased .
    All discussions about speed are product of relativity so as time. As everything exists in three material dimensions but also change with time I believe that time should be the forth one, isn't it?
    The same way we travel in X, Y or Z axis we travel through time. This time travel is called ageing process and I think if I continue unwinding this theory I go nuts.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromaron View Post
    I do not consider time is Information but because it is something we can measure people perceive it as information. I also do not agree the time = 0 if I travel with speed of light. My body will age for the time taken to cover a certain distance with the speed of light.
    If you were to travel AT the speed of light(which is not possible) you would reach the end of the Universe instantly, so yes time becomes theoretically zero.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromaron View Post
    I do not consider time is Information
    Time for a rethink about relativity Fromaron. Don't worry, we all learnt this way. How you think the universe works is classical newtonian physics.
    You don't understand Eisensteinian physics properly yet.

    So the first thing to grasp is how relativity works, or rather how it is limited.
    C = the speed of light. This is the limiting factor, and of course the topic of this thread.

    The point is nothing can travel faster. If it could, I'd want to know about it.
    And it is not so much photons of light, "The speed of light" is more of a theoretical speed limit. And the concept of "information" at it's simplest is changing the smallest point in space from a 0 to 1 or moving that bit to the next point in space. That speed no matter how close those two points are will always be C.

    This has ramifications for other properties of the universe like mass. The faster you travel, the more relativistic mass you acquire.
    When the velocity of a particle reaches the speed of light it's mass becomes infinite.
    The more correct way to describe it is, the harder you push, the more the universe pushes back.

    What does this mean in terms of aging on a human scale.
    Well if you get in your space ship and head out at high speed, the electrons in your body cannot travel faster than the speed of light.
    Everything slows down and as you reach the speed of light, they stop. Since time is a measure of how fast one particle moves in relation to the other. If neither particle can move relative to the other time=0
    Meanwhile outside of the spaceship, particles are streaming in at the speed of light. The entire universe appears to stream in all at once.
    Since time has stopped for you on your spaceship, you can't even put your foot on the brake to slow down. The moment you reach the speed of light, its game over, literally.

    "I do agree the time will stop for an individual if you increase gravity for him/her enough."
    But this is exactly what happens. Where it happens is the event horizon of a black hole.
    I we imagine your spaceship is about to enter "the imperial stargate". As you travel into the black hole, the spegitification and frame dragging causes time to run slower at the front of the ship compared to the rear. If instead we can think of the whole ship as a single particle. Time runs slower and slower as we get to the event horizon. Space itself is now curved so much that not even light can escape, remember this isn't "light" as we see it, this is "light" in terms of information. Looking down into the black hole, time stops it appears frozen. Looking back up and out of the black hole we see the entire history of the universe play out instantly. Time running infinitely fast.


    The faster you go the heavier you get. The point comes when you get so (infinitely) heavy you cannot push any harder.
    or
    The faster you go the more time slows down for you. (You don't notice this, time appears normal to you) but you travel so fast that time stops.
    For no better reason than particles at the rear of your vehicle can never travel to the front.

    Don't worry if your head hurts thinking about it. It hurts everybody's brain including the people who have work with it every day.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    If you were to travel AT the speed of light(which is not possible) you would reach the end of the Universe instantly, so yes time becomes theoretically zero.
    Speed of light in the ideal environment (I should say - no environment at all - full vacuum and no any external force fields around) is exactly 299792458 metres per second. Simply using math it is easy to calculate time required to reach the end of universe which will not be 0 - 100% guarantee.
    The reason we can't reach the speed of light is simply because the energy required to achieve it will be very high and some people say is close to infinity (E=m*c_squared). The funny thing is when you turn your light at home you actually witness the light which inherently reaches the speed of light . Hence the old theory of photons when a material particle with a known mass gets transferred to an electromagnetic wave (field) with 0 mass.
    Because people can see evidence of both material and field properties when they research light the theory of energy field (the light falls in to the category) was kind of developed. But I talk from the old school point of view. Trash or others might explain the recent developments in this area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    The faster you go the heavier you get. The point comes when you get so (infinitely) heavy you cannot push any harder.
    or
    The faster you go the more time slows down for you. (You don't notice this, time appears normal to you) but you travel so fast that time stops.
    For no better reason than particles at the rear of your vehicle can never travel to the front.

    I agree with all you say with 1 addition though. Because of the theory of relativity the time will stop, your weight will become an infinity and no light will travel faster than yourself but all this true for an observer who is watching the ship with a person on board and the ship travels with speed of light. For the person on the ship the time doesn't stop as well as his weight is unchanged etc.
    If that person turns the light torch the generated light beam should travel with double speed of light for the person who is stationary on earth.
    This is where the theory of field should come handy because for the observer the ship will be converted to some sort of energy field and the torch light beam we simply cannot capture yet.

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