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Thread: Elon Musk, South Aus Power and the $33Million Bet.

  1. #21
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    Gas is they way to go for the required peak and base load because gas turbines can spool up in a few minutes or less.
    Coal can take days and base load is BS because of the unused wasted energy to keep the coal stations running while some load is covered with solar in sunny periods or other renewables.

    Gas, we have heaps but we send it all overseas or resorces sold off to China (thanks John Howard).
    Gov wants to intervene, pretty sure it is all smooth talk because they want to force coal on us for all eternity and that is what they subsidise for many billions each year.
    $$$...Welcome to Australia where corruption is legalized...$$$

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  • #22
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    So now Victoria joins South Australia with their diesel generators. Must be "clean diesel" eh ? SA is already up with the highest prices in the world. Vic customers can expect to pick up the bill for this one.


    Plans for two large-scale batteries to help secure Victoria’s power supplies this summer are in disarray, with a $25 million proposal by the Andrews government still in the planning stage months after construction was due to start.

    Touted as a “game-changer” by Energy Minister Lily D’Ambrosio when she and Premier Daniel #Andrews announced the investment in March, no successful bidder has been announced for the storage initiative.

    The project, which is meant to deliver two 20-megawatt batteries with combined capacity of at least 100MWh, was due to start construction in August so it would be ready for peak demand in January.

    The state will now rely on diesel generators pumping up to 100MW of power into the grid to guard against blackouts during heatwaves. It is understood the government is still assessing the bids to provide the batteries, but a spokesman for Ms D’Ambrosio yesterday declined to answer questions about the delay and whether the battery plan would proceed.

    “We’re making sure Victoria is equipped with the next generation of energy technologies that will support a resilient energy system,” the spokesman said.

    The batteries were to be installed in western Victoria, and each would be capable of powering a town such as Bendigo or Ballarat for up to four hours during a peak demand period.

    Opposition energy spokesman David Southwick said the Andrews government was “delivering a third-world energy policy” and changing its policy on the run.

    “These are desperate policy #announcements by a government who simply can’t figure out how to solve the problem they created in closing down Hazelwood and taking 22 per cent of energy out of the market,” he said.

    Experts have previously questioned the business case for large-scale storage in Victoria and whether $25m would be sufficient to pay for it. The government has claimed energy storage will play a “vital” role in integrating renewable energy into the network and improving grid reliability.

    “This initiative will highlight Victoria’s position as a leader in managing the transition to a secure and modern energy system through deployment of new energy technologies,” the state’s Environment Department said in an information packet for potential bidders.

    Clean Energy Council chief executive Kane Thornton said the batteries would play an important role in keeping the power grid stable and secure if installed. “In combination with new pumped-hydro and existing hydro, batteries will give us more flexibility to address peak demand for energy and deliver a cleaner and more #affordable energy system,” he said.

    AGL Energy has flagged plans to build a 250MW battery — which would be the world’s biggest battery and more than twice the size of the 100MW plant being built by Tesla in South Australia — at the site of the Liddell black- coal power station.

    The federal government last month unveiled the National Energy Guarantee, which attempts to align climate and energy policy by obliging retailers to buy certain amounts of energy from ready-to-use power such as coal, gas, pumped hydro and batteries, and from renewable sources such as wind and solar to lower emissions.
    Source : The Australian

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Gas is they way to go for the required peak and base load because gas turbines can spool up in a few minutes or less.
    Coal can take days and base load is BS because of the unused wasted energy to keep the coal stations running while some load is covered with solar in sunny periods or other renewables.
    Base load is bullshit hey ? Wow, thats an interesting theory considering it is in contrast to just about every energy expert there is, including pro renewable ones.
    And gas is better than coal because you can power it up faster ? You don't power them down in the first place, hence what base load power (which you think is bullshit) actually is for. And I take it you have never heard of selling excess to connected states ?

    Gas, we have heaps but we send it all overseas or resorces sold off to China (thanks John Howard).
    Wow, John Howard managed to send all our gas overseas ? We have had several successful Asian trade deals in relation to gas....we do have lots of it. The irony of course is if they didn't get that gas from us, they would be burning coal.....from us. You certainly dont mind a dollar each way do you ?

    Maybe it has something to do with the states do you think ? Victoria, New South Wales, Western Australia, Tasmania and the Northern Territory all have either complete or partial bans on gas exploration. Nah...that wouldnt have anything to do with it. Must be that John Howard.

    Gov wants to intervene, pretty sure it is all smooth talk because they want to force coal on us for all eternity and that is what they subsidise for many billions each year.
    More garbage. I'll even use the ABC for this one which is 2 months old.
    Australia's largest gas companies have assured the Federal Government they will increase supply to the eastern states next year, potentially avoiding an energy crisis and export restrictions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Gas is they way to go for the required peak and base load because gas turbines can spool up in a few minutes or less.
    sorry but that is wrong it takes half an hour to safely warm up the turbines at hallett before they put a load on them.
    i think we should build one dirty great big nuke power plant to run as much of the country as we can.
    as for the waste got it out of the hole put i back in the hole you got it out of and maybe stuff some greenies in there too.
    TRUTH ALWAYS wins over LIES and religion is one big LIE!

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  • #25
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    In fact the grid stability is not only about available capacity connected. In order to have a stable electricity network certain performance parameters must be there where one of the main criteria is Fault Ride Through capability of generating equipment. Which is ability of the generators to withstand fault occurred in the network for sufficient time (enough to clear the fault) without shutting down the generator (trip). Another important parameter is the generating plant inertia - the higher inertia is the greater capability to withstand higher step loads which are plenty seen in any network.
    Now to put everything in to perspective of renewable energy sources. Wind and Solar invertors in majority of cases are "non-grid forming" type and require external controllers to maintain network frequency (there are some grid forming inertors available but only of small capacity not sufficient to feed large networks). These invertors have practically zero fault ride through capability and trip almost immediately following fault event.
    Let's have a look at SA grid - it is almost 50% (don't quote me as I don't remember the exact figure) consists of renewable energy sources. Now imagine what happens when there is a fault in the network - like what happened after storm when one of the power towers collapsed. The network became very unstable and shutdown - first renewables and then overloaded conventional sources - coal and gas.
    The proposed battery storage supposed to support stability of the network during fault conditions providing the fault ride through capabilities, not what some people assumed to take over state supply. The same capability offer diesel generators. In fact we have designed 20 MW micro-grid with solar station and had to have at least 5 diesel generators constantly connected lightly loaded to form the grid and provide short circuit capability and sufficient inertia in order to meet micro-grid stability spec.
    For sure - batteries provide the above described functions but think about all other problems associated - high maintenance cost, required real estate (they need a lot of space to provide descent capacity - for eg 1 MW battery storage will require 40' container) and very important - production of batteries is not very green process. Also, how do you dispose them - this is one of the biggest problem.
    The above is the reason why people still rely on diesel generators working together with renewables in order to meet national grid codes. I see the hybrid power station will be around for awhile until either battery solution becomes more practical or solar and wind invertors stability performance improves.
    Last edited by fromaron; 26-11-17 at 08:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromaron View Post
    ...Also, how do you dispose them - this is one of the biggest problem.
    ...
    No problemo. Give them to me.

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    Built by Musk’s Tesla company, the lithium-ion battery has 100 megawatts of capacity and is reportedly three times larger than the next biggest battery. Paired with the Hornsdale wind farm 120 miles north of Adelaide, Australia

    "Last week the battery bounded into action just 140 milliseconds after a power plant in the neighboring state of Victoria suffered a failure that would ordinarily have led to a lengthy power cut, the International Business Times reported. The battery fed its stored energy into the national power grid, preventing an inconvenient blackout from affecting numerous homes in nearby towns and cities."




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    So now Victoria joins South Australia with their diesel generators. Must be "clean diesel" eh ? SA is already up with the highest prices in the world. Vic customers can expect to pick up the bill for this one.

    I am sure in my reading that these generators (SA) are duel fuel, ie diesel and gas
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

  • #29
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    It's nice to hear that this has worked as designed. The problem with such devices, you should not even be aware of its existence, let alone whether it works. Everyone would complain if it didn't.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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