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Thread: Negative mass created !

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    Default Negative mass created !

    Read it here:


    Are we going to get a propulsion system that could accelerate a space craft for ever,
    while it continuously falls away from the negative gravity of the negative mass it is towing with it !

    Trash, shoot me before I start trying to build one, now that I know that it is possible to create negative mass, there may be simpler ways.
    ...now where are those forbidden laser pointers
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 24-04-17 at 09:18 PM.
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    Ah thank you for entertaining me tonight with some brain food.
    So my first thought is always ... who's pulling my leg.
    A quick check of the source it seemed legit. Then a quick read of the article to get a handle on it.
    OK.. got it. Running negative mass or acceleration through the formula F=ma is a bit of fun.

    But this isn't anything new. I first saw this 30 years ago. In fact, I'd bet a good 20 cents that you've seen it too.
    The experiment they're describing is at the atomic scale in ultra cool bizzare matter states. Heheh.. you ain't leaving this planet in a hurry

    Ok, so the real world example you have seen before. Good old high temperature superconductor doing it's thing.
    It obeys and reflects Newton's first law very well.
    A body remains at rest or in motion unless acted upon by an external force.
    Under normal temperature conditions, the YBaCuO would be accelerated due to gravity and fall to the floor.
    No surprises there.

    Under superconducting conditions ignoring friction due to air resistance we can see the superconductor moving along the track almost frictionless.
    Something we've become accustomed to.

    When the superconductor sits above the magnetic track, gravity pushes it towards the magnetic track. The ΔB (change in magnetic flux) causes an eddie current to flow in the superconductor which then mirrors the magnet below it. This repels the superconductor (negative acceleration) and the superconductor levitates above the magnet.

    The same thing happens below the magnet. The superconductor falls away due to gravity, but again, the -ΔB in the superconductor sets up an eddie current which causes the mirror opposite magnetic pole and the superconductor is attracted to the magnet. The harder gravity pulls or pushes, the more the superconductor negatively accelerates it with respect to (in this case) gravity.

    ======

    OK .... so you want to play negative mass.
    You remember that little particle called the Higgs Boson. Hold on to your hats because your about to get a applied physics lesson on it and you might actually understand in an abstract way how the Higgs field actually works.

    So lets start with the things you do know. The higgs field gives particles their mass. The higgs boson is the carrier particle.
    Add to this your desire to have negative mass.


    So I'm going to ask you to use your imagination a little for this lesson.
    I want you to think of .... the economy. You buy and sell things for money. I can give you a dollar and you can spend it. Nothing abstract there.
    Now imagine a cashless society. You have a magic electronic box that stores your electronic dollars and if you want to buy something, you can magically transfer e-dollars
    to anybody else.

    Imagine the economy is the higgs field, and the dollar is the boson, the imaginary carrier particle of the economic field.
    You visit a country with this cashless economy. Everybody talks about this imaginary thing called "the dollar". You can't see any dollars, but you notice that people who have more dollars seem to attract more people. (They have more economic mass).
    If I give lots of people lots of dollars, they will be attracted to me like bimbos to Hugh Hefner.

    Enter the negative mass. I need to be so badly in debt that people are repulsed by the thought that just being in my presence will make them poorer.
    That's the description of negative mass in terms of (economics) and the higgs field.

    You need the particle equivalent of my ex-wife.
    Last edited by trash; 25-04-17 at 12:51 AM.
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    At first I thought of superconductivity too, only here we don't have any magnetic fields and it would not matter in which direction you push the laser spin-activated rubidium.

    It would accelerate against a force from the side just as much as from above, unlike the floating superconductor than needs an external magnetic field
    in the direction of the force it is trying to repel. The rubidium should also continue to accelerate against gravity as long as it is in a negative mass state,
    unlike the superconductor that finds equilibrium between the magnetic and gravitational force and just floats.

    There is plenty of ultra coolness in deep space if very low temperatur is the common denominator to create negative mass.

    To create negative mass, the researchers applied a second set of lasers that kicked the atoms back and forth and changed the way they spin.
    Now when the rubidium rushes out fast enough, if behaves as if it has negative mass.
    Way too vague information here but changing the atom's (nucleus) spin can also be done on macro molecular level with a changing magnetic field like every MRI machine.


    .... and then what happens if negative mass occours at the event horizon or BEYOND?
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 25-04-17 at 01:25 PM.
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    Actually you do, or rather you don't. Superconductors by their very nature expel magnetic fields. If you have a Bose-Einstein condensate, that's exactly what you have.

    The rubidium should also continue to accelerate against gravity as long as it is in a negative mass state,
    unlike the superconductor that finds equilibrium between the magnetic and gravitational force and just floats.
    Unfortunately this is the same thing. You're just looking at it from a different perspective.
    It's not the magnetic flux B or the gravitational field g that is the source of acceleration. It's the acceleration of itself inputted into the system that is the source.
    Remember, there is no free lunch in the universe.

    If mass x acceleration (in) ≠ mass x acceleration out, THEN you're breaking the laws of thermodynamics.

    Now I can see that you might imply that this source of energy comes from the gravity of random objects in the universe. ie. After the object is accelerated, it has stolen gravity from the mass of something else in the universe. That clearly doesn't happen else there would be a change in the gravitational constant and ... the only thing flying away at warp speed is our imaginations

    Notice in this statement, "Now when the rubidium rushes out fast enough, if behaves as if it has negative mass."
    Not that it has negative mass. F (force) is still a positive number in a one dimensional model. But this is a complex number, a 3 dimensional vector. F=m0*a(x+y+z)° where a is the vector and also always positive.

    Cars driving down the opposite direction on the highway do not have negative mass or velocity unless that is in theoretical one dimensional maths.

    There are of course a few other minor details of the universe that you might be conveniently overlooking. Like the electromagnetic force which is just a slight bit stronger than
    gravity. Imagine a hydrogen atom with an amu of -1. this hydrogen atom is covalently bonded to an oxygen atom with a mass of +16 and just for giggles another hydrogen atom with +1 amu. Both hydrogen atoms are identical except for our thought experiment of one with -1 amu.
    What is the behaviour of this water molecule?
    Well, it behaves just like water does in the same way that heavy water does with respect to water. Our "light water" would have a molecular weight of 16 amu.
    1 litre of it would weigh about 900 grams.
    Nothing magical here... it doesn't leap off the planet. The hydrogen atom is well and truly chemically attached to other matter on this planet. Gravity isn't the dominant force here.

    To sum it up:
    You can't propel yourself forward by patting yourself on the back
    Last edited by trash; 25-04-17 at 03:40 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Now I can see that you might imply that this source of energy comes from the gravity of random objects in the universe. ie. After the object is accelerated, it has stolen gravity from the mass of something else in the universe. That clearly doesn't happen else there would be a change in the gravitational constant and ... the only thing flying away at warp speed is our imaginations
    Well then lets look at the other direction. If I fly towards a planet's gravitational field and add only a comparatively small amount of energy to change the vector so that I whizz around it and get catapulted away with significantly higher velocity, then where else did I steal the energy from?

    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Imagine a hydrogen atom with an amu of -1. this hydrogen atom is covalently bonded to an oxygen atom with a mass of +16 and just for giggles another hydrogen atom with +1 amu. Both hydrogen atoms are identical except for our thought experiment of one with -1 amu.
    What is the behaviour of this water molecule?
    Well, it behaves just like water does in the same way that heavy water does with respect to water. Our "light water" would have a molecular weight of 16 amu.
    1 litre of it would weigh about 900 grams.
    Nothing magical here... it doesn't leap off the planet. The hydrogen atom is well and truly chemically attached to other matter on this planet. Gravity isn't the dominant force here.
    H-atoms can exist bonded alone in pairs. If I could get them both to "behave" like negative mass??? then I do not see why they cannot escape our planet completely and eventually our entire solar system as they repel themselves from the force of gravity.

    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Notice in this statement, "Now when the rubidium rushes out fast enough, if behaves as if it has negative mass."
    Ok lets get down to the crux of the biscuit.
    You say it behaves basically like a superconductor from this test, so why are they hyped about a negative mass discovery?
    How does negative mass really behave ???

    After having a read here:
    it seems very unclear how negative mass really behaves.

    based on the Einstein field equations:
    Positive mass attracts both other positive masses and negative masses.
    Negative mass repels both other negative masses and positive masses.
    This leads to a runaway motion that would enable a spacecraft drive as I described in my OP. I pat on my own back and off I go
    The calculation shows that the conservation laws are not broken, but it is classically forbidden, like you say.

    The other view is very far out but strangely coincides with a theory I have favoured and mentioned in the past several times, that at the time of the Big Bang two universes were created.
    I don't understand this reverse arrow of time thing, unless the Big Bang was also the other universe's end when ours was created but now still exists
    going backwards relative to us until we meet again when it has it's Big Bang and we die. My idea was that the alternate universe was created at twice the speed of light
    relative to ours and maybe that could be kind of the same thing.
    Whatever the case, this reverse Universe would have negative mass and it would interact with ours through gravity and could explain Dark Matter and
    and the calculations based on this idea would make mass behave like this:
    Positive mass attracts positive mass.
    Negative mass attracts negative mass.
    Positive mass and negative mass repel each other,
    which otherwise satisfies the rule of classical physics.

    So what is it going to be?
    A crazy physical paradox or a crazy universe
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 25-04-17 at 09:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Well then lets look at the other direction. If I fly towards a planet's gravitational field and add only a comparatively small amount of energy to change the vector so that I whizz around it and get catapulted away with significantly higher velocity, then where else did I steal the energy from?
    You of course stole this momentum from the larger mass. The reverse is also true, you can use a large momentum to accelerate or decelerate a smaller momentum.

    mu1+mu2 = mv1 + mv2 .... again... there is no free lunch.

    Not that if you use a negative mass in this equation, it still must ballance.

    Have you heard of the "society for the preservation of Jupiter's orbit"?
    It was a bit of a joke organisation like the people's front of Judea

    H-atoms can exist bonded alone in pairs. If I could get them both to "behave" like negative mass??? then I do not see why they cannot escape our planet completely and eventually our entire solar system as they repel themselves from the force of gravity.
    You'e still ignoring all of the other real world forces which are going to effect such a theoretical particle.
    the Electromagnetic force is still going to be the dominant force acting on this particle.

    Here's a question for you? Does a negative mass attract or repel a negative mass?

    and the calculations based on this idea would make mass behave like this:
    Positive mass attracts positive mass.
    Negative mass attracts negative mass.
    Positive mass and negative mass repel each other,
    which otherwise satisfies the rule of classical physics.
    [+m] + [+m] = +M
    [+m] + [-m] = -M
    [-m] + [-m] = -M

    It looks like that if the EM force doesn't hold these particles together, they're going to continually fall up until there is no more "up".
    The most obvious property of such particles would be that they evenly fill the cosmic voids. The evidence for that isn't looking good.

    If we assume a negative mass attracts another negative mass, then such matter clumps together, in which case you would see negative mass galaxies with blue shift. Again, that isn't happening.

    Ok lets get down to the crux of the biscuit.
    You say it behaves basically like a superconductor from this test, so why are they hyped about a negative mass discovery?
    Ask a stock broker. Boom on rumour, bust on results.

    How does negative mass really behave ???
    If you really want to know, the answer is here ... E=mc²
    E becomes a negative number.

    This is the simplistic version of general relativity.
    If we look at it terms of mass,

    m=(√[E²-(pc)²]) / c²

    Now if we have a negative mass, then we end up with the square root of a negative number.
    If we reverse the terms, we end up with a square of a negative mass and thus a positive energy.
    Reverse the equation once again and we end up with a positive mass.

    After having a read here:
    it seems very unclear how negative mass really behaves.
    I like this part.... In theoretical physics, ...

    In quantum gravity, which I know absolutely nothing about, I think.. err... guess such a particle might have a spin of -2 and this is where I fall off the edge of the flat universe.

    This leads to a runaway motion ...
    At this point the laws of thermodynamics alarm bell should be ringing.


    So what is it going to be?
    A crazy physical paradox or a crazy universe
    The simple answer is of course that your interpretation is wrong.
    The negative mass is an illusion, at worst a fabrication.

    What happens the the cesium atom after it leaves the BEC? It magically changes it's mass from a negative to a positive?
    Again, with we run the change of mass through E=m1-m2*c² .... woah, that's a lot of engery !

    My suspicion is that we have standard conservation of mass and momentum with an interesting but not magical action.
    The observations are real but exaggerated to get attention for other purposes.
    It is however fun to think about negative mass.

    Did you know that negative mass works well in time machines. I have one and I can see into the negative future (ha).
    Here is a video of your space ship from the negative future.


    The negative forward is of course reverse.
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    On a funny note, my 10 year old son has some kind of flare for cosmology.
    I don't know where the hell he gets these questions from.
    I'll be driving and he's asking me questions about gravity, mass, singularities, event horizons, galaxies, cosmic microwave background, speed of light, anti-matter AND recently negative mass. It's seriously disturbing how advanced his questions are. And my standard response is... Where the hell are you picking up all this stuff, because I sure as hell haven't been teaching you it?
    I wonder where he gets is questions from? It's like somebody is coaching him.

    Yesterday I caught him running simulations of colliding galaxies together on his computer. (which I thought was pretty awesome)
    He tried running simulations of colliding three black holes, I laughed and told him one would be thrown out at high speed ....
    Wow dad, how did you know that was going to happen? [yeah - dad has still got it]

    He's sitting beside me on his computer ... I just decided to spy on him ....
    sheeet.... he's downloading videos on food poisoning. I asked him why? He's showing me how cool Ramsey's kitchen nightmares are.

    It was only 4 years ago the fvckstick catholics had his brain full of creationist shit and I was vaccinating his little brain against it.
    He had to change schools and I suspect they might have asked the ex-wife that he leave the school.

    I put that down to genetics, My dad dragged my sorry arse to sunday school. It only took me three weeks before they told my dad "please don't bring the boy back, he asks questions that disrupt the other kids." Fvcking dinosaurs gets them every time. Kids love dinosaurs, christians hate them.

    I've got 10 hours more driving with him this week and I don't have enough podcasts for him to listen to.
    I should make a list of the questions he asks and post them here for a laugh.
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    Thanks guys, find the conversations interesting,
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    On a funny note, my 10 year old son has some kind of flare for cosmology.
    I don't know where the hell he gets these questions from.
    I'll be driving and he's asking me questions about gravity, mass, singularities, event horizons, galaxies,...
    Yes the kids today and the Internet, which I have filtered up so heavily that almost only science passes through
    My youngest (also 10) drills holes in my brain with science questions but it seems we are unfortunately the extreme minority.
    The coverage (or perhaps better the awareness) of science in ours schools today is IMO deplorable.

    But even when I was a smaller child, when I wanted to invent an antigravity device and way before I had physics at school
    I already thought that all the benefit from this antigravity would require at least the same in effort to create it.
    I don't know why I came to this conclusion, maybe from throwing a stone in the air and hoping it stays up eventually and getting very tired
    from always trying to keep it up there

    Hence the request in my OP to shoot me if I try create negative mass

    ..but thanks for playing the game with me.
    The blue shifting galaxies was the best. I really hadn't thought of that.

    Edit: also on a side note, when I was a kid my parents left me mostly alone and nobody stopped me from doing sometimes slighty dangerous chemestry and physics experiments to experience first hand what science is like. I could in fact purchase all the chemicals I needed from a chemist (late 1960s) because those in my chemestry kit did not satisfy my curiosity.
    Not to mention what I did with 240V (around the age of 12) but I always had a healthy respect of the forces involved and never experienced even a light shock but some nice light effects and plenty of broken fuses.
    Of course I read a lot about what I intended to do before hand.

    Today parents would be locked up for allowing their kids to experience science like this and I also know my 10y/o would do exactly the same as I did, so I have to keep a very close watch on him. I keep my computer PSUs now locked in a small storage room because he has already wants one. He also knows that he will never be allowed to play computer again if he takes it out of his own PC, but I am thinking about replacing it with a laptop.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 26-04-17 at 11:57 AM.
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    Of course we have negative mass, it's called Canberra!

    Out of curiosity, Trash, What is your qualification? Are you some form of school teacher?
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    No, I'm not any sort of school teacher, though I know I'd make a pretty good high school science teacher.
    I'm just a engineer/nerd. I would not look out of place in the cast of the Big Bang Theory. I have been accused many times of being Sheldon Cooper.
    I'm not Narcissistic like Sheldon, the rest I don't deny.


    Anything you bring to the table Nomeat, I would love to be true. I want a god damn flying car! I want faster than light travel or even tachyons.
    Reality has been keeping me on this planet.

    Yep, I was no different. I used to ride my bicycle up to North Ryde to go to Selby's (A chemical wholesaler). I used to buy all kinds of cool chemicals and all I had to do was ask for them by name. The only thing they wouldn't sell me was acids, or something nasty like Potassium Cyanide. I tried, all of those and much more.
    They would ask me questions about what I was going to do with each chemical before I bought it, just to check I had my head screwed on.

    But then as an adult, I've had more trouble buying benign chemicals for benign straight forward reasons.
    I wanted to buy some Borax so I went to a local chemist. The woman at the counter summoned the demigod down from his dais for a judgement.
    He asked me what I wanted it for. (As a kid I would buy ti off the shelf). I thought, I could feed the chemist with a bullshit excuse, but I figured I'd just be honest.
    "I want it for use as an electrolyte..." with a bit more detail. His eyes glazed over and he hid behind ignorance and refused.
    I then walked down the mall to K-mart and found some in the garden section. I went back to torment the chemist afterwards.
    I think I really hurt him when I said, "All you had to do was stick a label on it like everything else."


    Today parents would be locked up for allowing their kids to experience science like this and I also know my 10y/o would do exactly the same as I did, so I have to keep a very close watch on him.
    Ah, I wouldn't let that stop him. I'd ask him what he wants to do, what he thinks will happen and then either let him, or make a modification for him to keep you happy.

    You know he's going to build a tesla coil eventually and he's going to work it out much sooner than you realise. So I wouldn't say no to him or he'll surprise you.
    I'd never say no, just facilitate him at every oportunity. Give him what he wants and enjoy the falls and be there to stop him hurting himself.

    I built a good size coil. My high school physic's teacher decided to give me some helpful warnings. Which I of course weaponised.

    If he needs a high current supply, then give him something with a big circuit breaker on it.
    If he needs a high voltage supply, then give him something with high impedance.
    If you know something he is going to do is going to fail, I'd want to be there to see the splash !

    An example today.
    I was showing the boy how we can make hydrogen and oxygen from water (I was using some fuel cells in reverse to generate the gas).
    I filled up a syringe with my usual ratios to facilitate the task. The boy was a bit underwhelmed that hydrogen was, "just air."
    That was until the explosion launched syringe plunger over his head with a loud bang like a .22 going off.

    Showed him a peliter device today too. Here, hold this for me ..... He couldn't tell if it was getting hot or cold.
    He was amused by it, but not really interested in it.

    About 30 years ago, a friend and I decided to fill a paper bag with acetylene for shits and giggles. Bang... yeah, that's cool, let's fill a garbage bag !
    My friend's old man comes out as we're filling the bag. "What the fvck do you think you little mongerals are doin?"
    "Nuffin !"
    "Filling that bag with acetylene... ya doing it wrong.. give it here... This is how you do it! Now take it down the bush, put a big fuse on it and let it off down there. You'll break window's if you do it around here."

    He is still as much a hoodlum as I am and I recognise his vandalism when I see it


    The boy caught me off guard again while driving with questions about roche limits and planetary ring systems.
    Oh come on! how do you know about that? I suspect he has picked up news about the Cassini mission.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

  • #12
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    Arrrgh... don't remind me of my pathetic search for borax at chemists a few years ago. The only things you can get in Chemists there days are drugs that can kill you.
    Ebay is stlll my friend and Bunnings is sometimes an option.

    A lot has changed since we were kids and it is called the Internet.
    Most kids today just watch all the (crazy) experiments in Youtube rather than DIY, which I find very entertaining myself, especially the fake ones.
    Stuff with microwave ovens and lithium batteries are always popular and Youtube saves cleaning the mess afterwards.

    I think they still make water in highschool. My older son chose physics at school with only 2-3 others. Luckily the subject wasn't dropped.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 30-04-17 at 01:24 PM.
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    Chemistry never did interest me, still doesn't. One of my school friends managed to blow himself up one week end, he was off school for months. Not sure what he's up to now, but I'm certain that it would be chemistry related.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    3 students in Physics? Shit, how many kids in the grade?
    I'm trying not to believe the country is dumbing down and that I'm just getting smarter. Is it wishful thinking?

    When my physics teach was choosing the electives for the HSC I told him that electronics was going to be one of them.
    "We don't have any equipment to teach it, so no." (this was a rich private school)
    "Well I'm going to do that elective with or without you, I have ALL the equipment, what do you need to teach it?"
    I could not wait to get to year 11 specifically so I could do physics.

    I also did Chemisty, I was good at it even though I thought I wasn't. I sort of found senior chemistry boring because it was about processes and not so much about discovery.
    My year 12 chemistry teacher tried to get me to drop the subject, until she discovered that I popped 3rd place high distinction in the national chemistry quiz.
    The best thing I learned from high school chemistry was that I no longer thought of teachers as automatically smarter than their students.

    I would have also done biology, but it was exclusive of physics back then.

    Yeah, I don't use youtube like that. I will watch anything anybody sends me for a giggle, but I don't search youtube looking for an experiment.
    I tend to create and do the experiments myself. Watching the mythbusters is fun, but I'd rather be hands on with my own experiments and I've always been sensible about my own safety. Not that I didn't make a few mistakes as a kid, those mistakes were the seeds for better safety.
    I have friends who will not hesitate to make a chlorine bomb the traditional way. I just won't do it, not like that. Unless I can control the reaction timing and rate and do it remotely. What I now consider to be common sense. It sounds boring, but it has a benefit, you tend to understand what the catastrophic limits are and how to improve them
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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