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Thread: Laws of Physics changed in 50 years?

  1. #21
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    Try this one Nomeat.
    You heat an Ammonia absorption system in order to cool it
    It's a heat conveyor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    In both cases no energy is created just transformed, while the transforming device requires some extra energy to function.
    i rest my case.
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  • #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Try this one Nomeat.
    You heat an Ammonia absorption system in order to cool it
    It's a heat conveyor.
    I think the absorbtion system is a bit like a still and the problem is to convey that heat you generally need more heat than it coveys(unless maybe ), which shouldn't be a problem if the heat to boil out the ammonia can come directly from the sun.

    Trash, check this one out:


    and applied:


    ...nice for superconductors in transport systems if this could be applied in large scale one day.
    Last edited by nomeat; 23-07-17 at 04:20 PM.
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    I am surprised that no one has, as yet, coupled a heat pump to a generator. Using the figures in my post #11 above (i.e. 0.8kW input and 4.9kW output) and an efficiency of only 50% (R & D should improve on that):

    Power generated = 4.9 x 50/100 = 2.45kW

    Deduct 0.8kW to power the heat pump

    Remaining power = 2.45 - 0.8 = 1.65kW.

    "1.65kW is a pathetic quantity of power", you say.

    Is it?

    Assume it is coupled to a 48V 200AHr LiFePO4 battery bank. Total capacity is 9.6kWHr.

    For the sake of simplicity further assume:

    1. The battery bank is discharged to 30% capacity i.e. 2.88kWHr
    2. Everyone is in bed between 22:00 and 06:00 Hrs
    3. Power draw during that period is 200W - refrigerator, fish tank aerator, bedside clock/radio and the occasional toilet light, etc.

    Power output to charge the battery is 1.45kW. Time to charge the battery = (9.6 - 2.88)/1.45 = 4.6 Hrs.

    When the battery is fully charged power is diverted to the water heater.

    During the day the 1.45kW is supplemented by the battery bank to power the house.

    The advantage of this system is that there is no reduction in output because of overcast days, trees shading the PV panels, etc. It just works 24/7.
    Last edited by Guiseppe; 24-07-17 at 12:46 PM.
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    How do you charge a battery with heat? A peltier element in reverse? Way too inefficient to get any benefit.
    The quantum dudes are working on that but if I understand the carnot principle right, the heat pumped from the machine can not be reversed into enough kinetic energy(for a generator) to run by itself, let alone release extra energy otherwise you WILL have issues with the Laws of Physics ( second thermodynamics), Trash correct me if I am wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    How do you charge a battery with heat?
    The heat pump is driving a generator which charges the battery.
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

    "What has changed between the arrival of the First Fleet and today?"
    "Wearing leg irons is now not required."

  • #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    The heat pump is driving a generator which charges the battery.
    Sorry you are making no sense.
    The heatpump is a motor that needs electricity (energy) to run. It does not and will not run on it's own. It does not create any energy it uses it to pump HEAT from one place to another.
    Heat does not move on it's own from cold to hot. You need some energy for that.
    If you want to create a heat motor (a totally different device) to reverse the heat flow which is possible, the carnot principle/second law of thermodynamics forbids that the heat motor would have enough energy to turn the compressor with enough energy to keep the cycle running.
    Your heat motor spins while heat moves back from hot to cold but but the energy it releases will always be less that what was required to push it from cold to hot(up the hill) with the compressor.

    Just like you can't pump water into a higher tank and use that water to flow down a turbine to generate power to run the pump to pump it all up again.
    Last edited by nomeat; 24-07-17 at 11:22 PM.
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    OK. Enough of generalities.

    A real world example - our LG LGM304V-6.

    1. According to the nameplate it has 2.10kg of R410a

    2. The wall unit is 5m from the outside unit

    3. External temp is 10C

    4. Internal temp is 12C

    (a) Describe each and every process that occurs,

    (b) Show calculations for energy in and energy out for each and every one of those processes

    (c) Show the result as Electrical energy input and Heat out both expressed as Watts.

    EDIT: If no familiarity with the LG then a Fujitsu, Daikin, Mitsubishi, or whatever unit will do.
    Last edited by Guiseppe; 25-07-17 at 11:53 AM.
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

    "What has changed between the arrival of the First Fleet and today?"
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  • #29
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    I had hoped when I posted the above that a forum member would know someone who knew someone who knew a Heat Pump Design Engineer who would answer my question.

    Alas it appears that no one does.

    Or does the lack of response indicate something more, um, fundamental?
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

    "What has changed between the arrival of the First Fleet and today?"
    "Wearing leg irons is now not required."

  • #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    I had hoped when I posted the above that a forum member would know someone who knew someone who knew a Heat Pump Design Engineer who would answer my question.

    Alas it appears that no one does.

    Or does the lack of response indicate something more, um, fundamental?
    I posted links from the Wikipedia that sufficiently explains the processes and the carnot cycle that allows you to make theoretical calculations yourself if that is so important to you.
    Tristen's link also provides enough explanation and calculations to show that there is a limit
    I see no point of doing time consuming cacluations for each process myself when it has already been done for me.

    If you don't believe others who have spent a lot of time doing this research you will have to do the research youself in an attempt to DISPROVE what is actually common knowledge in the laws of physics and not expect others to do it for you.

    Read the links.
    Welcome to Australia where corruption is legalised.
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  • #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    I posted links from the Wikipedia that sufficiently explains the processes and the carnot cycle that allows you to make theoretical calculations yourself if that is so important to you.
    Tristen's link also provides enough explanation and calculations to show that there is a limit
    I see no point of doing time consuming cacluations for each process myself when it has already been done for me.

    If you don't believe others who have spent a lot of time doing this research you will have to do the research youself in an attempt to DISPROVE what is actually common knowledge in the laws of physics and not expect others to do it for you.

    Read the links.
    I have never said I do not believe others nor have I said I want to disprove anything.

    I am not interested in theoretical calculations.

    I am sure that real world calculations for each process has been done. All I want is a link or reference to them.

    Read my posts.
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

    "What has changed between the arrival of the First Fleet and today?"
    "Wearing leg irons is now not required."

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