Some FOI Police Camera - Speed Stuff

[GT250]

Hi all,
The decluttering continues...
She's getting happier, slowly....

NB: These documents are OLD. But I believe that 'things don't change' that much in this sort of 'hard wired' infrastructure.

An interesting thing I read (I didn't know), is that if you are going down a certain incline in an automatic car in D and with your foot off the accelerator AND the incline causes your vehicle to increase in speed - they are not allowed to get you.
In my area, there is a downward hill (slight as it seems), that causes my car in D, throttle off, to increase in speed. Tested three times and the speedo increases just by 1-2kmh.. AND I've seen police with handhelds at the bottom.
Also little things about how far out of a towns incoming road area they are allowed to 'set up'...

I was going to post this in the other section that I have the sat dish and stuff. But I though you tech heads might like a read of how it all works out there in the Police Lidar (I think Lidar is mentioned - don't quote me on it), and Radar and Red light Cameras, induction loops and the setting up requirements - of which I'm pretty sure they don't follow all the rules, in the REQUIRED calibration periods etc...

So just a bit (ok a lot), of feedback why I decided to go through FOI to get these documents.
I was done for going through a red light camera yonks ago. Sun in my eyes, a crossing I've used for 14yrs and the photo's (and really good quality!), showed me that I crossed the 'line' even when the traffic on the other side had started to move forward (The photo's proving it). I went to court to plead guilty - HUGE LONG DRAWN OUT PROCESS - and we know why, don't we?
I explained to the magistrate that I don't run red lights, never have and that the photo shows how much the delay was between the light phases for me to be going through the intersection... He agreed and fined me the lowest he was allowed, which I might add shows how much discretion they have. It was a BIG difference, but the points remained (no point going down that path..!).

So. First of all, these documents were obtained through FOI. I'm sure that if anybody wants to get these and obviously updated versions themselves then they are available.
However, I can assure that it's a long and drawn out process with costs.

So here they are, free.

If anybody wants them please let me know. Pick up of course is free. However, I'd like to get something for P&P and maybe a case of beer
Trash - if you want them PM me ok.

NB: I've said their old.

[Bigfella237]

Sounds like some interesting reading.

I have been booked several times before coasting down a long incline, eastbound from the Goulburn turnoff on the Kings Highway if anyone knows it (they used to set up in that gravel pit on the left), also coming down Mt Ousley in the same circumstances, so I wish I knew about that coasting thing before, and I couldn't count the number of times I've seen speed traps elsewhere in a similar situation!

Anyhow, is there any way you could scan those documents to PDF so we could download them? I'm sure more than one of us would like to take a look.

Andrew

[Skepticist]

When the first radar speed detectors were put into service here they were frequently placed where the returns were best such as at the bottom of a steep decline where every car would be over the limit unless you rode the brakes all the way down. After a lot of complaints it was deemed to be unfair entrapment and those lucrative revenue raising sites don't appear to ever be used now so perhaps there is something official in the instructions for their use. What they do now is set up just over the crest of a hill where you'll naturally be speeding up after the climb unless you're watching the speedo very closely and compensating. Often has drivers concentrating more on the speedo than the actual road which is counter-productive road safety wise IMO.

[BCNZ]

Here in New Zealand, there is no defense for gaining speed downhill in an automatic vehicle. If your vehicle gains speed and goes over the limit, you are expected to use the brakes to slow down - simple as that.

A pet peeve of mine has been the use (and perpetuation) of the term 'radar' for speed detection devices. This is NOT radar. This is microwave detection.
Ships and boats use radar, as do airports.
True radar tells you what direction the signal is coming from. Microwave speed detection doesn't - it just gives you the speed an object is traveling.

Anyway, aside from that, those books look like interesting reading. I concur with Bigfella, it would be great if they could be scanned into PDF format so everyone could have a look.

[Skepticist]

The hill here that generated major revenue from the cameras initially is quite a long steep decline on the highway. Riding the brakes all the way down causes overheating with consequent brake fade and a lot of warped rotors which is great for the local brake repair and spare parts shops but counterproductive in terms of safety. My approach to it is to allow the vehicle to speed up a bit above the limit, then brake to under the limit, rinse and repeat making sure to be within 5km/h of the limit at the bottom of the hill 'just in case'. Haven't had any brake issues myself but another driver using the same car with brakes all the way down resulted in me changing rotors a couple of times to fix the vibrations.

[tristen]

Intelligent use of intermittent braking as described by Skepticist (and use of lower gears where possible) instead of riding brakes all the way down a hill is simple and effective.

It is the method I have always used in such situations as described in this thread.

I do not see what all the fuss is about.

[Bigfella237]

This thread has little or nothing to do with proper braking technique, it's more about those of us having been booked multiple times in a situation which, apparently, should never have been used to entrap people in the first place.

Andrew

[Gitch]

A pet peeve of mine has been the use (and perpetuation) of the term 'radar' for speed detection devices. This is NOT radar. This is microwave detection.
Ships and boats use radar, as do airports.
True radar tells you what direction the signal is coming from. Microwave speed detection doesn't - it just gives you the speed an object is traveling.

Just being picky and because I'm bored ... I thought RADAR stood for "RAdio Detection And Range". RADAR itself will only give a distance from it's head. Using the direction the head is facing we can determine the position of the detected object relative to the RADAR head i.e. Bearing 310 and Distance 2600M. Thence using two position reports, we can compute the direction, and speed of the detected object. The frequency of RADAR can be anything - the Jindalee OTH RADAR in Australia uses a frequency between 5 and 30MHZ (much much lower than most expect a radar to operate).

And, sorry, I've taken this way off topic...

[Skepticist]

My only reason for bringing up the 'hill and braking technique' thing was to highlight the entrapment we experienced in the early days of speed cameras of whatever technology and the apparent epiphany for the authorities about the wrongness of their approach to generate easy revenue.

I suspect these documents may well have been the catalyst for a change in the deployment of the technology. Maybe they hadn't RTFM before firing them up

[Gitch]

Off topic, but after driving down the east coast, I noticed those averaging speed systems are becoming more and more common - especially in NSW. Got me wondering what the tolerances on those systems are?? For example, there is one between Brisbane and Sunny Coast, I'd say over 25km between them. Based 25km that equates to difference of 7.37 secs between 110km/h and 111km/h. To me, that is a massive allowance for a tolerance on the equipment error - but a tiny tiny allowance for our speed...

[peteramjet]

The point to point cameras in NSW are only used for enforcing heavy vehicle speeds, which should be speed limited to 100km/h anyway. So if you are in a car or light vehicle you can just ignore them

[lsemmens]

That's not what the signage implies.

[peteramjet]

That's not what the signage implies.

Not sure what you mean, the signs simply say 'Average Speed Camera' or similar.

Regardless, the RMS site confirms they are for heavy vehicles only:

[lsemmens]

Each State is different the signage in SA just says

[peteramjet]

Each State is different the signage in SA just says

Not sure what that's got to do with NSW though. No idea if SA capture light vehicles.

Regardless, those same signs are used in NSW.

[GT250]

Hi all,

Just letting you know I have disposed of those FOI documents.

Cheers,
GT250.

[lsemmens]

No stress, I would have thought that signage was to a national standard. Looks like it ain't.