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Thread: The White elephant.

  1. #21
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    You are all wrong, it was little(big) Johnny Howards fault, he did not split Telstra up into service and supply, like those smart Kiwis over there. Phucking Liberals
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"



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    Some seem surprised there is a cost blow out. I'm certainly not, it's kind of the norm for gov projects. I don't blame one party anymore than the other either. I couldn't believe when Telstra got that $13b windfall for their aging pos copper network. I always was of the opinion that in time the private sector would upgrade trunks, links etc as demand for bandwidth grew. This was the case as we transitioned from dial up to ADSL etc. But as I mentioned some time ago, wireless will catch up and the nbn would be redundant before it's even completed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admin View Post

    I can remember getting howled down when I said the popularity of 4G and beyond would mean many people would not have a need for a high speed fixed line and that future technologies would make mobile internet faster and faster and with that would come larger data plans.

    Running fibre to everyone's door isn't going to fix anything. Well, it might appease the deluded but that's about it.
    I am sorry to be a bit rough here but anybody who thinks a wireless connection can compete with even a single hair of fiber is deluded and totally ignorant of the laws of physics.


    A radio signal can only have a relatively narrow band while an optical fiber can carry the entire spectrum almost up to it's optical carrier.
    Any 'breakthrough' compression algorithms in wireless technology can also be applied to fiber and the wireless connections will always have to compete with nearby transmitters in dense areas, thus limiting bandwith further, while two fibres can even touch each other witout interference.


    The fibres in my street are 3mm wide bands of 12 fibres each and 6 of these ribbons summing up to 72 fibres in one small cable. Just comparing the copper price in weight should make this fibre cable significantly cheaper when mass produced but unfortunately it never came to that, so we will never know what it would REALLY had costed once the FTTP got past pilot projects.
    For those who still don't get it: Once you start doing the same thing over and over many times it gets cheaper !
    That is common sense, not a delusion.
    Who was pocketing $$$ and Bogarting the system is a different story, *cough Telstra*.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 28-10-17 at 06:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by admin View Post
    It amazes me how Labor is somehow innocent of all charges in regards to something they actually implemented from a drawing on a napkin.

    They are the architect of a very poorly planned major infrastructure project, which isnt surprising given they have botched every other major project such as the Pink batts fiasco that killed 4 people and set fire to 200 homes as well as the School Hall project where everyone got a school hall....even if you had one.

    How much tax would you like to put on your children and grandchildren for the "full fibre" network ? I am not happy about being taxed to pay $90,000 to connect a single "full fibre" premises.

    Figures released today show the most expensive broadband connection in Australia cost the National Broadband Network $91,196 for a single home.
    That was the cost of the fibre-to-the-premises (FTTP) link for one residence in Ravenswood, Tasmania.
    Tasmania had the second most expensive FTTP connection and the highest cost commercial link — $86,533 for a bowling club at Invermay.

    And when it would it actually be finished ? Take a look at the speed of Labour's roll out when in power.......we would still be waiting in 2050 for a connection at their roll out rate. The roll out speed under the Coalition has been very good, despite the constant negative press. I get NBN next month, under Labor it would not have been this decade.

    What difference would FTTP make to FTTN in the current situation ? None. People aren't having problems because they dont have FTTP, they are having problems because of bandwidth limitation due to providers under purchasing.

    It should have been a private sector project, not something the taxpayer gets stiffed with. Any government project immediately blows out beyong all reasonagle costs because the unions force all sorts of idiotic pay rates and conditions. Australia is one of the most expensive places to build anything period.

    I can remember getting howled down when I said the popularity of 4G and beyond would mean many people would not have a need for a high speed fixed line and that future technologies would make mobile internet faster and faster and with that would come larger data plans.

    Running fibre to everyone's door isn't going to fix anything. Well, it might appease the deluded but that's about it.
    Admin fttn isn't as bad as it is made out to be. I get constant high speeds but once rain hits i loose connection. I dont blame the liberals as they didnt bring the rain. Now getting connected to fttn i was nearly in tears looking at the poor bloke waving through hundreds of cables to find the right one to hook up and yeah he had to wipe them clean cause they had mosture on them.
    Fibre was the only way to go and sure mistakes may have been done but what business starts with a bang? Maybe it might have taken 5 years or ten years more to be completed but it would have been done proper. Generations after us would have benefited also. Turnball was forced to make another plan too make it look cheaper faster bla bla bla and i don't blame him at all he did was he was told and i know from a local politician that he was against changes and supported fttp. The thing people are whinging about now is not the solution just more of a problem. We had a chance to change it back and we didnt take it so we shouldnt blame whoever is in charge.
    Solution there is none as if anyone is going to rip up the crappy network we are building and start again.
    Again fttn isnt so bad 90 percent of the time i don't have any problems but i am only 300 mtrs from the node and i cant speak to people 500 to 1000 mtrs away.

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    I've just heard about the stupidity and bureaucracy of NBN co. This person is in an area that was under supplied with copper, with his old service being on a pair gain system. The NBN has been connected in his area with FTTN. He can't be connected as there is no spare available copper pairs to reach him. He contacted the NBN and requested to be connected by FTTP. They told him he would have to pay for this, and quoted $18k to run the 400m of fibre. When he asked them what would do, they said that they would run new copper cable.

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    Sounds about right.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Anyone have any idea what it would cost him to contract directly with someone to lay the fibre? If NBN even allowed this, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    I am sorry to be a bit rough here but anybody who thinks a wireless connection can compete with even a single hair of fiber is deluded and totally ignorant of the laws of physics.

    A radio signal can only have a relatively narrow band while an optical fiber can carry the entire spectrum almost up to it's optical carrier.
    Any 'breakthrough' compression algorithms in wireless technology can also be applied to fiber and the wireless connections will always have to compete with nearby transmitters in dense areas, thus limiting bandwith further, while two fibres can even touch each other witout interference.
    Fibre is wonderful. But history is full of technically better solutions which lose in the marketplace. Like most idealistic proposals, the original proposal was very fair to everyone on one view. It would have given everyone fibre right to their premises but at a ridiculous cost to the taxpayer which no serious effort was made to quantify. The estimates were laughable. And just recently we have seen examples of the costs of such installations in more difficult areas. The cost even of the current poor compromise has already blown out and will blow out more. Many of the claimed benefits are simply political propaganda. Yes, there are real benefits, the overwhelming majority of which would have accrued by fibre to capital and large regional cities, or even only parts of them. And of course it is in these areas where the improved wireless technologies will be competing with the NBN. It is in these areas where some of the Telco's may well have eventually installed their own fibre except for the NBN monopoly. An NBN saddled with the ridiculously inflated cost of the roll-out and the unrealistic idea that a return must be received on this money. And that it will be able to be sold for a sufficient price to achieve this return. I can only see this happening if they expand the monopoly to exclude competition from wireless and other potentially competing technologies. And heaven help us, the poor end users who will pay for it.

    The fact is that wireless, even if it is an inferior technology, will be able to compete very effectively for customers who largely do not care about the technical aspects. I expect that wireless services in cities and large regional areas will be able to deliver a service that is fast enough for most users and cheaper, perhaps considerably so. Even now, many customers, at least anecdotally, would have stayed with their existing cable or adsl service had this been an option. There is little reason to suspect that they will not switch from the NBN to comparable cheaper wireless solutions if they become available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    I am sorry to be a bit rough here but anybody who thinks a wireless connection can compete with even a single hair of fiber is deluded and totally ignorant of the laws of physics.
    At the end of the day, The privet sector was reluctant to invest in fiber for the simple reason it would be expensive and obsolete before it is completed and so good old Mr Rudd decided to take the ropes and commit the nation to more then 50 billion.

    You can read and hear of all the good things fiber has to offer.

    In the real would all you hear is complains about the slow speed and frequent dropout. I hear time and again how Optus clinets request to have ADSL reinstated.
    Last edited by B52; 29-10-17 at 04:47 PM.

  • #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by B52 View Post
    At the end of the day, The privet sector was reluctant to invest in fiber for the simple reason it would be expensive and obsolete before it is completed and so good old Mr Rudd decided to take the ropes and commit the nation to more then 50 billion.

    You can read and hear of all the good things fiber has to offer.

    In the real would all you hear is complains about the slow speed and frequent dropout. I hear time and again how Optus clinets request to have ADSL reinstated.
    And now we have no fibre to homes any more and it is costing 60+ billion and we have all the complaints you are talking about, which are only related to the totally pointless FTTN system.
    That was obvious from the minute Liberals killed FTTH and of course the complaints will never end.

    I am one of the lucky ones who lives within one of the FTTH pilot projects and am loving it, with my family watching streamed 4k from Netflix on two different tellies simultaneously..
    No drop outs here.

    BTW the private sector normally doesn't fund our roads and highways, electricity grid and even our old copper telephone network was AFAIK originally mostly funded by the tax payer. The privat sector then gets the infrastructure for dumping prices from the government !

    Of course such a major infrastructure project goes beyond what the private sector would be willing to invest in and it historically never had to.
    Right now $30-40 billion is being invested from the NSW state for a few laughable km of highway smack in the middle of Sydney, which unlike an NBN benefits only few, so few that many might avoid it because of the outrageous toll fees. Nevertheless very few kick a hissy fit about that waste.

    My motto has always been "If you don't do it right you don't do it at all".
    Full fibre, future proof for the next 100 years or they should have cancelled it, but not this cost blow out of patchwork with never ending complaints !

    The bit between the pit and the house and the modem could have been at house owners cost but in the 21st century I should be able to expect some return from my hard earned tax money: to have fibre pass my house, just like I had power, telephone, water and sewer in the last century.

    But now I have to feel almost ashamed that I have full fibre while the majority do not.

    I want to sum up: NBN has been stuffed up, period.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 29-10-17 at 09:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DB44 View Post
    Even now, many customers, at least anecdotally, would have stayed with their existing cable or adsl service had this been an option. There is little reason to suspect that they will not switch from the NBN to comparable cheaper wireless solutions if they become available.
    I have the "option" to connect to FTTN. The "option" is not really an option as in October, 2018 my phone will be disconnected and I will be forced to either go the NBN route or wireless. I am giving serious thought to the latter - my questions will be the subject of another thread.

    Given that on a good day and the kiddies are in school I can get about 11Mb/sec why would I want to change to NBN?
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    The private hector would manage such projects with less wastage but also concentrate on more densely populate areas. The regional and remote areas wouldn't be subsidised by the city folk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    I have the "option" to connect to FTTN. The "option" is not really an option as in October, 2018 my phone will be disconnected and I will be forced to either go the NBN route or wireless. I am giving serious thought to the latter - my questions will be the subject of another thread.

    Given that on a good day and the kiddies are in school I can get about 11Mb/sec why would I want to change to NBN?
    Because say you want to download diablo it used to take me 2 to 3 hours now takes 10 min tops. Again fttn isnt so bad if you arent too far away from the nod anything over say 800 mtrs you will struggle.

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