Electric vehicles

**allover** · 04-12-17, 08:37 AM

Seems a lot of technical sites are championing Tesla and their electric cars as ground breaking in running costs and eventually in purchasing price as production increases and market share sky rockets, but i only see one tiny (err huge) problem. The Government is going to lose a huge income source and i don't think they are going to sit there and do nothing. So i am going to run against the tide and say with a govt impost on electric cars that they are not going to take over the world any time soon

**Uncle Fester** · 04-12-17, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by allover

Seems a lot of technical sites are championing Tesla and their electric cars as ground breaking in running costs and eventually in purchasing price as production increases and market share sky rockets, but i only see one tiny (err huge) problem. The Government is going to lose a huge income source and i don't think they are going to sit there and do nothing. So i am going to run against the tide and say with a govt impost on electric cars that they are not going to take over the world any time soon

The reality shows that your assumptions are wrong.
Goverments that charge the highest fuel tax (according to your link) also have the highest uptake on EVs, see Norway:

and many other European countries also offer government incentives and infrastructure that promote EVs.

It seems that those with the lowest fuel tax: Australia and USA will have the lowest uptake, obviously, because petrol is 'too cheap' so why bother.

+ in the USA we have Trump and in Australia we live in the 19th century even in our Metros where EVs would be quite practical. Oh and I almost forgot, we have so little sun shine to charge then with PVs, so we must use coal power of which we CERTAINLY do not have enough either. EVs are totally useless in Australia

The EV revolution is on, just not here.
We are only a bit of fly shit in the World economy, however they are all going to come running us when they need that cobalt and nickel sulphates to 'fuel' the revolution. It wil take another 2-3 years before that will happen but also at least that time before any significant mining can be established.
Luckily there are a handful of smart explorers working on that right now and this upcoming new mining boom might just save us from the great Australian financial crisis when our realestate and banking goes bust, provided we keep a low AU$ so our mining products stay competitive.

**allover** · 04-12-17, 03:09 PM

The highest petrol taxed countries with the highest uptake there fore will stand to lose a greater percentage of their tax share, my post refers to the lose of income to the governments and how they will recoup that income. I suspect if not now the likely source will be electric cars as some form of surcharge
eg Norway us$2.42 per liter, of that us$1.44 is tax, ie 59%. Now if there are 1,000,000 cars doing 12,000kms a year (12,000,000,000K's) averaging 30 km a liter 400,000,000 litres @ 2.42 = $968.000,000 x 59% = us$576,000,000 income that they will have to find from some where

**DB44** · 04-12-17, 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by nomeat

The reality shows that your assumptions are wrong.
Goverments that charge the highest fuel tax (according to your link) also have the highest uptake on EVs, see Norway:

It seems that those with the lowest fuel tax: Australia and USA will have the lowest uptake, obviously, because petrol is 'too cheap' so why bother.

Too cheap? Why on earth should governments try to force us to use an inferior product that is simply not ready for prime time? Let's face it, the impact will be on the poorer. Already many people who once could afford a car now cannot. Increasing the cost of ownership excludes what for many is almost a necessity. You don't see our politicians using public transport! Or electric vehicles. I will happily use an electric vehicle, or a hydrogen one or any other non-polluting technology when they reach the stage that they can meet my needs at the same or cheaper cost than a petrol driven vehicle. In the case of electric cars I often wonder if there are any real savings in pollution at all. The power to run them still needs to be generated. Even when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. And the batteries themselves need to be replaced and disposed of.

**LeroyPatrol** · 04-12-17, 05:16 PM

It amazing the push of EV's now when in the 90's GM had a beauty that got killed off! Look up 'who killed the electic car'

.....Leroy

**Uncle Fester** · 04-12-17, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by DB44

Too cheap? Why on earth should governments try to force us to use an inferior product that is simply not ready for prime time?

Looks like you, like most here are still living in the 19th century, why doesn't anybody try to think a bit forward here?

The car technology is already there and it is superior. I admit mass production is not quite there yet, but the market is growing exponentially towards that. 2-3 years from now low cost EVs will be available, just not here in Australia where nobody wants them.

EVs are very simple to produce and once mass production gets going they will be cheaper than their inferior petrol guzzlers, not to mention their low running costs and almost no maintenance requirements.

Originally Posted by DB44

Let's face it, the impact will be on the poorer. Already many people who once could afford a car now cannot.

What really? Every man, woman, kid and dog has their own car here in Australia, at least that is what I see when I look around me these days.
I wish ppl would share cars more but I mostly see one person sitting in one huge car. Strangely when I grew up there was only one car for the whole family and we still survived.
Now there is just endless traffic congestion.

In the case of electric cars I often wonder if there are any real savings in pollution at all. The power to run them still needs to be generated. Even when the wind doesn't blow and the sun doesn't shine. And the batteries themselves need to be replaced and disposed of.

I want one(pretty sure I am not alone) not because of saving pollution but because of the Ferrari like acceleration and I can charge it for free with my solar panels and hey, it has a battery! The sun doesn't always have to shine.
I am of course anticipating a model that has over 400km range, so with my 40km daily average that means the sun doesn't have to shine for 10 days! The panels actually still output 10% on cloudy days so I still get enough for that 40km as well.

However I might end up getting the Mitsubishi PHEV(OK not quite like a Ferrari) when it comes out with 270 mile range and also has a built in generator for the rare occasion I would have to drive further than that in one day. I never have but I live semi rural, who knows.

As for replacing batteries it is claimed that they will last the whole lifetime of the car. For the long range ones that definitely seem likely.
On the other hand, due to their simplicity, EVs could be built to last much longer than today's cars, so replacing a battery instead of the whole car is definitely environmentally friendly, while the components in the Li batteries are mostly NON toxic and recyclable, unlike the millions of lead acid batteries we have to throw away to start conventional cars.

**Uncle Fester** · 04-12-17, 08:20 PM

Originally Posted by LeroyPatrol

It amazing the push of EV's now when in the 90's GM had a beauty that got killed off! Look up 'who killed the electic car'

.....Leroy

Interesting point.
Back then the oil multis had GM of course in stranglehold but today we have Elon Musk who is doing this to show the oil industry the back door.
Now GM has to compete so they don't miss out.

In the mean time we also had laptops and smart phones that demanded the mass production of high density Li-Ion batteries so the EV battery development could benefit from that.

**DB44** · 04-12-17, 09:25 PM

@nomeat. I look forward to these superior vehicles being available in the future, just like superior power sources. Until then I don't want to subsidise them.

**lsemmens** · 05-12-17, 12:02 AM

The minor problem with electric vehicles is range and charging time. In the last week I have travelled an average of 300 + km a day, towing heavy loads through the hills. I couldn't afford to sit around for an hour or more the "fast charge" my car. I'm certain that the 400km range touted for EVs is based on lightly loaded and relatively level driving.

**DB44** · 05-12-17, 05:49 AM

They're my main problems with them too, but I don't think they are at all minor problems. I'm also sceptical about the lifetime battery life claims and even about pollution savings overall. I read a very good article not that long ago on driving a Tesla between Sydney and Melbourne. It sounded like great fun, and the car was no slouch. However, the route had to be planned especially around the power requirements. At one stage they had it connected to an extension lead from a motel room, without the proprietor's permission. Also a nice anxious time nursing the car at lower and lower speeds to get to the next charging station. And this in a car retailing for I think about $160,000 or more at the time.

I'll be quite happy to have one once they are practical and ready for prime time. When they are actually better or at least as good as existing vehicles, I can't see them having any problems dominating the market. I just don't want to be pushed into one by government charges before they are ready. And at the moment they are clearly not.

**enf** · 05-12-17, 07:15 AM

Originally Posted by DB44

They're my main problems with them too, but I don't think they are at all minor problems. I'm also sceptical about the lifetime battery life claims and even about pollution savings overall. I read a very good article not that long ago on driving a Tesla between Sydney and Melbourne. It sounded like great fun, and the car was no slouch. However, the route had to be planned especially around the power requirements. At one stage they had it connected to an extension lead from a motel room, without the proprietor's permission. Also a nice anxious time nursing the car at lower and lower speeds to get to the next charging station. And this in a car retailing for I think about $160,000 or more at the time.

I'll be quite happy to have one once they are practical and ready for prime time. When they are actually better or at least as good as existing vehicles, I can't see them having any problems dominating the market. I just don't want to be pushed into one by government charges before they are ready. And at the moment they are clearly not.

Got a mate with a Tesla....he and his wife trip around all over the place, quite often doing the "motel thing" you describe....great car, really, really fast if you've got a power point every 50km...

Too expensive for my taste, although I must admit I just spent a small fortune (by my standards) on a new big engined gas guzzler....f*ckin fun though....

**Uncle Fester** · 05-12-17, 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by DB44

I just don't want to be pushed into one by government charges before they are ready.

Don't worry that is never going to happen here.

**Uncle Fester** · 05-12-17, 05:42 PM

Originally Posted by enf

Got a mate with a Tesla....he and his wife trip around all over the place, quite often doing the "motel thing" you describe....great car, really, really fast if you've got a power point every 50km...

Things have moved on and they are moving fast.
Even my little pushbike with a tiny 0.5kWh battery will go further than 50km @50km/h.