Liddell Power station to close

[exited]

My point is that overall, total reliance on subsidised renewables is folly, and the ALP states have seen massive increases in prices due to them. This affects the poor, not the REAL latte sippers who you actually seem to support.

And yes, the coalition have mucked things up in NSW, but they had help...AND encouragement. I'm not denying this at all. NONE of them have a clue, but if you want to take the rose coloured approach then you are more than welcome to.

Come on enf... the REAL sippers are on the right.

The lefties are beer drinkers and hell raisers. Haven't you noticed?

P.S. that linky thingy is paywalled - for rich eyes only

[enf]

Come on enf... the REAL sippers are on the right.

The lefties are beer drinkers and hell raisers. Haven't you noticed?

As long as they keep you convinced of that then they are happy and you are doomed. The REAL latte drinkers are the Greens in the wealthy inner suburbs who keep pinching seats from the ALP. They made their money in the world they want to end and just don't give a sh*t about poor people.

P.S. that linky thingy is paywalled - for rich eyes only

Hmm...wasn't when I posted it...and I don't have a subscription. Still isn't for me....dunno why.

Paul Keating backs NSW electricity privatisation plan

The Australian
6:43PM November 28, 2014
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FORMER Prime Minister Paul Keating has endorsed the performance of NSW Liberal Premier Mike Baird and his plan to privatise the state’s electricity networks and taken a backhanded swipe at NSW Labor leader John Robertson.

Appearing besides Mr Baird at the announcement of the name of Barangaroo Point, part of the revitalisation of Sydney’s former industrial waterfront, Mr Keating praised Mr Baird saying he was going “exceptionally well”.

Mr Keating said he supported the Premier’s views on power privatisation, even though “there are still some obscurantists in the Labor Party”.

“The Labor Party has been too late in making clear what belongs to the state and what belongs to the private economy,” he said.

Mr Keating is on the record as being no fan of Mr Robertson, having once said: ”If the Labor Party’s stocks ever get so low as to require your services in its parliamentary leadership, it will itself have no future.”

But his praise of a Liberal leader was still extraordinary, and a blow to Mr Robertson at the end of a disastrous week for him in which other Labor figures including former federal minister Martin Ferguson and former NSW minister David Borger also endorsed the sale of the state electricity assets.

Mr Ferguson praised Mr Baird’s privatisation plans last week, saying: “The truth of the matter is John Robertson is a person who best represents Labor leaders of the 1930s, 40s, 50s and 60s, not the 21st century or the Hawke, Keating, Carr and Iemma legacy.”

Despite this, Mr Robertson claimed that all of Labor was united behind him in opposing power privatisation.

“Paul Keating is just wrong when he talks about Mike Baird. Mike Baird is making life tougher for people in NSW.

“What we have in NSW is a government that is making promises that it just can’t deliver and are not in the interests of the public.

“Paul Keating and I have been opposite sides of this argument for a long, long time. My position has always been clear. It’s been unwavering.”

Mr Keating’s intervention was a reminder of Labor’s deep divisions over power privatisation which led to the downfall of former premier Morris Iemma, for which many senior figures has still not forgiven Mr Robertson, who led the opposition as head of Unions NSW.

This week Mr Baird announced a $26 billion plan to fund a wide range of infrastructure projects with the proceeds from the sale of NSW distribution and transmission networks.

Mr Robertson was left to argue that the state’s existing capital works program was sufficient to fund the infrastructure program.

His only promise was to fund to fund the M4 and M5 East motorways, which are being paid for with the proceeds of the state’s ports, which Mr Robertson also opposed.

Mr Robertson’s case that electricity prices would rise under private ownership was also damaged by the Australian Energy Regulator’s report which found that private networks in Victoria and South Australia were more efficient than the government-owned ones in NSW and Queensland.

[exited]

Ahh Paul Keating... I never voted for Paul Keating - voted Liberal once and democratic once.

Why vote for a neo-Liberal when you can just vote Liberal?

But that article is all about prices - not security and not the closing of Liddell.

My argument is Liddell was closed because it was privatised and then non viable.

Privatisation is a means to an end.

Electricity prices is a different discussion altogether.

[allover]

I think ENF is onto some thing here but hasn't quite nailed it
I am sure renewable energy is coming in cheaper than coal, possibly gas, question why haven't the State Govts, mostly Labor not allowed the savings to flow thru. Some one is making a hulla lot of money between what they are producing the power for and selling it for, along with the State Govts consent
Examples
South Australia was producing 60% of their power from renewable s, even exporting to Victoria (I would guess Vic is receiving power today)
Note that not one State Government has mentioned what they are paying per MW h for renewable s and you go looking for it and you will not find it, over seas it is about -$55 per MW h. (not saying that they have bought at these prices but you would have to think near these prices)
So the State Govts are deliberately with holding info and we are all paying about $100+ MW h based on gas and coal produced power
Go figure

[mtv]

On the lighter side.

[lsemmens]

In case you haven't noticed, nomeat, most businesses do have the lights on all day. Yes, typically problems do occur in the early evening when people are starting to cook tea. I'd go so far as to venture that it has nothing to do with lack of supply, but a severe lack of base load, in that the suppliers do not fire up their stations to cater for the evening demand. Business is more likely to pay the companies for the base load.

[Reschs]

Large Business get severely ripped off on power charges.
Unless it has changed, they are charged at their peak usage value and not their actual usage.
If their usage spiked any time during the day, that was what they were considered to use all day.

Many years ago a friend, Electrical Contractor, was involved in a witch hunt in a newly renovated Department Store.
Their Power Bills were way over what was calculated.
Fitting a usage monitor discovered a severe peak in usage at about 6.30 AM. They attended the building to see what happened.
They found all the lights in the building turning on extremely fast.
A quick run to the switch room discovered the Security Guards running a competition to see who can turn all the lights on the fastest.
This little game was costing the Store about $10,000 a month extra in the early 80's

[Uncle Fester]

In case you haven't noticed, nomeat, most businesses do have the lights on all day. Yes, typically problems do occur in the early evening when people are starting to cook tea. I'd go so far as to venture that it has nothing to do with lack of supply, but a severe lack of base load, in that the suppliers do not fire up their stations to cater for the evening demand. Business is more likely to pay the companies for the base load.

I am aware that businesses use electric lights in the day, hence my comment about council installing PV panels but not all energy is used by business in the day.
I said I(me) rarely use lights in the day

Base load is indeed the big issue here that needs to be addressed but not they way you, admin and our current politicians see it.
You can't just fire up a coal station like Liddell for the evening!

Let me try to explain why this 'base load' thinking is antiquated and is the actual reason why we have problems.
Back in yesteryear we had incandescent lights and only a few privileged use airconditioning systems for example.
This was a reasonably stable load to calculate a minimum (base) load and it was fairly easy to manage and regulate that energy demand using coal.

Today we have LEDs that use a fraction of the energy and we have lots of people who are energy-wise, but on the other side every man, mouse and dog needs an airconditioner.
Therefore the energy regulation goes haywire in summer evenings for example.
Basically you are demanding that we have a 'base load' power supply based on that peak demand because you only accept coal powered electricity. The rest of the day they will need to burn a lot of coal to keep all that steam hot and ready(and release it into the atmosphere again),ready for those airconditioners later on because the actual load in the daytime is comparably low.
Yes renewables are also fault that we have a lower base load because 20-30%(at least in my part of the woods) are using PV panels to run their A/C at home in the day time.

The only sensible way to deal with this volatile load of today is a 'Power on Demand' electricity supply.
Systems that can respond quickly like gas and hydro/storage, not more coal.
If they have to shut down Liddell in 5 years, surely they can have a gas plant up and running before then, even in the same location maybe reusing some existing infrastructure, so they can switch over in steps.

This won't happen because our heavily lobbied Government(and those who voted them) only accept coal, even though they promised a regulation in gas prices and as long as that 19th century sentiment stays that way, we are going to have problems dealing with today's demands.
... and of course because everybody blames the lefties for everything. In the Britain it would be the Brexit by the way, LOL.

P.S. I am not a leftie, only the one that trys to come up with solutions.

[allover]

Nice rational post Npmeat
Hazelwood brown coal fired, closed March this year, a certain person was posting the heavens were going to fall in. 37 degrees in Melbourne, 40 + in the country
It did not happen and hope it does not happen in the future. Obviously they are finding sources of power to make up the short fall
Liddel i am sure will be a similar experience
Am sure AGL would have done their home work and that alternative sources of producing power is more profitable, in this case gas, solar and wind
As side note, wind in parts of SA are producing power 49% of the time

[allover]

A link to wind power production and future use

[eeprommemory]

following the smart state of SA get rid of coal power station massively jack up the cost per kW BUT you will save on power costs because of the continuous blackouts.
you guys are so SCREWED.

[Uncle Fester]

...and you seem drunk

[eeprommemory]

no just letting you know your future from experience.

[lsemmens]

Were ok if no one trips over the extension cord from the east. Then we truly are Screwed! Just like September last year!

[admin]

That's the price you pay for privatising critical infrastructure.

Gotta love those latte sipping toffs in the Liberal elite



Of course this is all the fault of the opposition party

Its probably worth nothing the article is from 2014.

[admin]

An interesting article by Clean Energy, worth a read

Melbourne to day 37 degrees celsius, time 12.30 . Now people have claimed that Victorian lights will go out due to a brown coal fired power plant has closed and there will be a lack of power. So am waiting for the power to go down

And probably also worth nothing that the Clean Energy council are perhaps a bit.......totally biased given all they support is renewable energy.

My power company is asking for volunteers to use less power. They send you an alert in peak demands to turn your air conditioner and other items off for a discount. Now why do you think they do that ?

Hell, even the biased old comrades at the ABC have twigged we are filling up the power stations we shut down with diesel generators


And South Australia are doing the same


Funny that....both Labor states.

[admin]

As side note, wind in parts of SA are producing power 49% of the time

And please DO let us know what percentage of the total power used in South Australia is from Wind power, which as you mentioned above, works only half the time

The average person could fart harder.

[admin]

Now I'm sure that I'll be criticised for

You will be criticised for false quoting. If you want to quote me by all means do, but quote what I am actually saying, not pieces of it to make out I said something I didnt say.

That is the only viable long term solution, yes some short term pain, but a solution that's good for Australia and good for the planet.

I do not believe that viable coal mines should be closed nor do I believe that viable coal fired power stations should be closed. But I do believe there should be a steady move towards renewable energy production. With renewable taking over more of the load as the coal fired stations become uneconomic to upgrade. Solar, wind and tidal are candidates, but probably solar highest on the list.

We are very fortunate in Australia because we are probably the best suited place in the world for solar power. Huge areas bathed in sunshine almost all day, every day, and huge areas of otherwise unproductive land to set up solar farms. Now that battery storage has become feasible, even more reason to move to this form of generation.

Now I'm sure that I'll be criticised for this view, but realistically it is the only viable solution at this point in time. We really do need to consider this, not in terms of our lifetime, but for hundreds of years hence.

No, its not the only viable long term solution. Nuclear is.

75% of France's power comes from nuclear generation, they export excess across Europe. No emissions, very little waste (which can be reprocessed and used again). We are absolutely stupid....we sell Uranium to the world to use for power, but wont use it ourselves. We do the exact same with coal.

For this country, which is increasing by a quarter of a million people per year just on immigration alone, wind and solar don't have a hope in hell of keeping pace. The pollution alone caused from making solar panels likely does more damage to the environment.

And no, battery storage has not become feasible. Its still expensive as hell, ask the South Australian government who just bought one as a state solution for closing coal plants. South Australian taxpayers are coughing up 50 million dollars to subsidise it. It will supply enough for 30,000 homes for an hour, or power the state for 4 minutes.

Power sources need to change over time, and it will be a long period of time required, not this idiotic "oooh its coal, kill it" leftist crap which is why we have shut down coal generators full of diesel generators.

[exited]

Its probably worth nothing the article is from 2014.

I knew that when I posted it. Not sure how that affects anything though ?

[exited]

I think a mass rollout of pumped hydro is the way to go.

We have a vast amount of land space available and they've found 20000 suitable sites.

You could easily generate base load power from these setups.