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Thread: Life and times of a black hole

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    I see they are gradually coming around to my way of thinking . The young open minded ones at least



    Oh and I found one of a certain poster here in the trash. Face is exactly as I imagined it would be . Damn!

    Last edited by tytower; 28-03-17 at 12:32 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    I see they are gradually coming around to my way of thinking . The young open minded ones at least
    Very little of what you have said in your posts agrees with anything NASA or astronomers would say.
    What in this URL are you claiming that they agree with you on?
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    And heres another confirming my suspected material coming back out of a black mass

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    Is what you're implying that matter or energy crosses the event horizon in both directions?

    That is that matter can fall into a black hole as we all know. You're implying that it can also come back out? This is not the case.
    The same question can and should be asked for energy. The same applies for light. It can fall into a black hole but it cannot cross back over the event horizon.

    That leaves "information". This is what Stephen Hawking is famous for. (Somebody you have personally derided in the past). He asked the question is information lost in a black hole? The answer was thought to be yes - information is destroyed.
    Hawking suggested that it may not be the case and information could escape via Hawking Radiation and this would cause black holes to evapourate.

    If you're implying that the jets from black holes are escaping a black hole, then you are incorrect.
    The jets do not originate from within the event horizon, they originate outside of the black hole's event horizon.

    The generalised statement; "Nothing escapes a black hole" is valid.
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    This is quite an interesting thread, and I realise things can get a bit "testy" when 2 people don't agree.
    To both, please remember to try and back up your points with proof or evidence with links, I think thats the best way to win an argument. And to give the rest of us some sort of hope of working out what you are actually talking about

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    This is the current state of thinking on the Universe


    My speculation is on the makeup of a Galaxy

    Place a half a dozen firecrackers clustered around each other , remove all earths gravity if it were possible ,remove all the earths air if it were possible and ignite them all at once . Each would be affected to some extent by the other and as a cluster would tend to expand away from each other.

    Thats what I think is happening in the Universe , each firecracker represents a Galaxy in it so there are multi billions of crackers doing this at various times . There can be no proofs ,only speculation and visual observations around us so thats why my posts feature real NASA and other observations. I'm not at all interested in other standard theory . They just keep being proved wrong.

    There is no argument being held here . I am just recording the gradual changes taking place in the thinking of theoretical scientists towards my common sense view of what might be happening. Its a take it or leave it choice for all.
    Last edited by tytower; 31-03-17 at 05:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    Place a half a dozen firecrackers clustered around each other , remove all earths gravity if it were possible ,remove all the earths air if it were possible and ignite them all at once . Each would be affected to some extent by the other and as a cluster would tend to expand away from each other.

    Thats what I think is happening in the Universe , each firecracker represents a Galaxy in it so there are multi billions of crackers doing this at various times . There can be no proofs ,only speculation and visual observations around us so thats why my posts feature real NASA and other observations. I'm not at all interested in other standard theory . They just keep being proved wrong.
    There's nothing wrong with putting forward a theory. I applaud you for doing it sensibly. (you also do not need to provide an excuse for conditions on earth in your thought experiments, you can just ask the readers to imagine them in free space.)

    The thought experiment you have proposed is valid.
    The results however aren't correct.

    The first is that in a conventional explosive, or any explosive (you can run this simulation with nuclear explosives and get the same result), it is gas pressure doing the pushing. This has consequences for everything, a galaxy would blow itself apart first. We see this with open star clusters and normal stars. The outward stellar winds clear a nebula of gas shutting down star formation. On a big scale everything would be vapourised and expelled.

    However, you're missing a few minor details. The first is the mass of a galaxy. Imagine your firecracker thought experiment. Nice little cherry bomb fireworks, but they have the mass of a WWII tank. In order to move something as big as a galaxy, you're going to need an explosion as big as... errr... one big one ... opps. That made that statement rather redundant. Remember, every galaxy is pushing away every other galaxy, not just it's neighbours.

    Lets look at it another way. If we consider a galaxy like a firecracker, have you noticed that they come in a few different sizes and shapes?
    Would this change the size of each bang? Or do they all go off with the same bang? If they are different, then why is the expansion progressive.
    If they are all the same, then why are big galaxies moving with the same expansion as their smaller neighbours?

    The hint is - like gravity, they are all falling at the same rate. The same source is acceleration all of them in the same way.
    The energy acting on galaxies is uniform.

    Next small problem is that we can see galaxies back as far as 12.8 billion years. There's no evidence of any such explosions.
    Even further back, the smoothness of the CMB suggests that in the billion years before that there was also no such explosions.

    The final small piece is the radiation pressure. If you apply an inverse cubed law that isotropic radiation follows you would see not an acceleration, but rather a deceleration after the initial event. v=˝at˛ The definition of an explosion, dt is very small.


    The jury is still out on dark energy and dark matter. As the first article suggests, they may not exist at all and there may be a different explanation for what we see. What we observe also doesn't fit with the description the author makes about bubbles of density in the universe.

    The big bang itself may be an illusion. But until somebody can provide a better explanation for what we observe, that theory holds.
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    A rather interesting development linking a telescope array in chile may give us better pictures of the supermassive black mass at the center of the milky way . It creates an array the width of the earth. It may be available in 2018.



    One of the goals of these new technological innovations is to image a black hole. This month, two international organizations are making observations that will allow scientists to construct such an image for the very first time. And the portrait they’re attempting to capture is close to home: Sagittarius A* (Sgr A*), the supermassive black hole at the center of the Milky Way.
    Last edited by tytower; 06-04-17 at 06:34 AM.
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    Coincidentally this page appears and says - hey we can see back to the beginning of time . 13.5 Billions of years ago they say . But if the galaxies are all expanding as they say then why would it be 13.5 billions of light years back in time rather than 13.5billion years away . There is no way of knowing where theses galaxies are expanding from , So how would you know where and when that light left its galaxy for our direction . How would you know where it was in space relative to other galaxies and ours , when the light left?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    There is no way of knowing where theses galaxies are expanding from.
    Some questions for you. If an object about 100km to your north is moving away from you at 100kph and another object about 100km to your east is also moving away from you at 100kph, where were these two object an hour ago?

    Lets move this question up to a cosmic level.
    Every galaxy you look at is moving away from you. The ones further away are moving away faster from you than the closer ones.
    If look back in history and run the clock backwards, where do all these galaxies end up?

    Well if we look back in history, they're all closer to each other. The further we look back in time, the closer they get.
    If we go back to about 13.8 billion years, they're all in the same place as if some big important event were happening.

    How would you know where it was in space relative to other galaxies and ours , when the light left?
    You used the correct word "relative". Welcome to general relativity. It does not matter where in space you or it actually are.
    It is only your relative position to each other. No matter where you are in the universe, you appear to be at the center.


    As for calculating distances, this is done with trigonometry at short distances out to about 50 parsecs.
    Beyond that we use variable stars to determine distances. We can double check those measurements against the closest trigonometric calculations.
    When it comes to galactic distances we can use variable stars for the closest galaxies and doppler red shift for further galaxies. Again, these two types of measurement are used to double check each other. Further out we can compare doppler redshift with type 1A supernovae which all explode with a consistent brightness.

    What all this adds up to is that about 13.8 billion years ago the universe was very small.

    How do you where the galaxy was? If it isn't obvious, exactly were you see it now.
    Lets say the galaxy you're looking at is 5 billion light years away, then where you see it now is where it is now (relative to us).

    If we remove time from the universe or increase the speed of light to something like 10↑↑10kph, then we can see the same galaxy where it is now relative to itself. (or where we will see it in real time 5 billion years from now.)
    Last edited by trash; 12-04-17 at 09:31 PM.
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    So I came across this rather informative page on Black masses. One that is dense enough to have enough gravity to prevent light escaping and one that does not .



    I don't know yet if I agree with this assertion that a "singularity" without an event horizon could exist . I don't feel it could exist long if it does because the matter falling back into it would be great and often. All the matter in its vicinity would be drawn back in as would the matter exploded out when the star exploded. It would draw matter in from surrounding star systems . Imagine one in our galaxy, which very well may be the case . Our central black mass , call it singularity if you like , that's better than black hole, would draw all matter to it at immense speeds. That smaller singularity would be drawn as well to its bigger brother but would be drawing its own matter to it first. At some point they would combine . Just how long a singularity without an event horizon could exist does not strike me as being very long .
    Last edited by tytower; 21-04-17 at 07:19 AM.
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    Also of interest in the sense of explaining how little of what is understood when matter becomes dense, to the extent of say a white dwarf star , is this page



    I noticed a para
    "Our biggest challenge is the fact that we are examining something that was previously unexplored. This is also what makes this work so interesting," Stopkowicz said. "The results from the computations are often surprising and not necessarily intuitive. Whenever we obtain something new, we have to make sense of it."
    Indeed they do and then if we start to make matter thousands or millions of times denser again what happens then. like inside a black mass . Perhaps matter compresses down to just one final point and then just accumulates on top of itself or perhaps it continues to compress until another big bang is made . Who knows?

    One thing I can say . We won't be flying through any black holes to new places I can assure you. What a silly name.
    We might be able to slingshot round one one day like we do now round our own suns planets but it will sort of take millions of years to get close and millions of years to get back .Don't like our chances on that one either.
    Last edited by tytower; 21-04-17 at 07:45 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    It would draw matter in from surrounding star systems .
    No. You really need to get over the idea that black holes suck. They don't.
    The image you have in your head is learned from science fiction, not science fact.

    The mass of a black hole exists before and after it's formation.
    Anything orbiting this mass obeys newton's first law.: Any object in motion remains in motion with the same speed and in the same direction unless acted upon by an unbalanced force.

    ie any object orbiting a black hole continues to orbit it. It does not change it's orbit and "fall" into a black hole like a big vacuum cleaner.
    If the mass of the earth were instantly and magically squeezed to the size of a ball bearing to become a black hole, the moon would not be "sucked" into this new black hole. It would continue to orbit the mass just as it did before and it will continue to do so until something else causes it to change.
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    I don't know yet if I agree with this assertion that a "singularity" without an event horizon could exist .
    That, I suspect, is an anomaly that could never be demonstrated, proven. If there were no event horizon, then, logic would dictate, that there was nothing left to be sucked in, i.e., nothing beyond that black mass could/would exist given that gravity would be infinite, hence the event horizon, too, would be infinite.

    To use "conventional" thinking, the Earth has a gravitational effect where the Lagrange point could be called the "event horizon" yet, when we move further out, the event horizons of various celestial bodies are at varying distances from said objects. Hence, if there is no event horizon, the object must either a) not exist or b) be so massive that nothing else could exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    To use "conventional" thinking, the Earth has a gravitational effect where the Lagrange point could be called the "event horizon"....
    I think you might mean the Schwarzschild radius.
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    Thanks trash, you keep us on our toes.
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    Interesting . They now think there are probably twice as many black masses as previously thought . The center of those exploded galaxies seem to still retain their black masses so I'm wondering now just how big they get before they explode out . I'm a bit suspicious of this though . The proportions of the galaxies don't seem right . the science guess is probably wrong.



    VUCD3's black hole has a mass equivalent to 4.4 million suns, making up about 13 percent of the galaxy's total mass, and M59cO's black hole has a mass of 5.8 million suns, making up about 18 percent of its total mass.

    By comparison, the monstrous black hole at the center of the Milky Way has a mass of 4 million suns, but makes up less than .01 percent of the galaxy's total mass.

    "It's pretty amazing when you really think about it. These ultra-compact dwarfs are around 0.1 percent the size of the Milky Way, yet they host supermassive black holes that are bigger than the black hole at the center of our own galaxy," marvels Ahn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    The center of those exploded galaxies seem to still retain their black masses
    Exploded?
    Did you read the article?
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    For an appreciation of the magnitude of the universe around us, it is always truly awesome to contemplate that this galaxy below has at least one large black mass at its center and maybe more . Its twice as big as the milky way and It takes light 170.000 years to get from one side of that galaxy to the other . What we see today is the light from how, and where it was, 25 million years ago, because that's how long that light has been traveling (at the speed of light) to reach us.

    Last edited by tytower; 20-05-17 at 07:48 PM.
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