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Thread: Life and times of a black hole

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    They are only now realising that a supernova is a rare beast and just outright continuation of accumulation of mass from around a big old sun gradually pushes it up to the size necessary to stop light escaping.
    Here is a quote from the above page

    It doesn't necessarily make sense, said Stanek, professor of astronomy at Ohio State, that a massive star could undergo a supernova -- a process which entails blowing off much of its outer layers -- and still have enough mass left over to form a massive black hole on the scale of those that LIGO detected.

    "I suspect it's much easier to make a very massive black hole if there is no supernova," he concluded.
    Here is a supernova to look at
    Last edited by tytower; 28-05-17 at 09:24 PM.
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  • #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    .... and just outright continuation of accumulation of mass from around a big old sun gradually pushes it up to the size necessary to stop light escaping.
    Here is a quote from the above page
    That isn't what the article says.

    When you get to neutron or quark degeneracy, "gradual" is not the word to used to describe the process.
    The questions to ask is; Why is more energy directed inwards than outwards?
    Why does this star core collapse not bounce and progress to a classic supernova but rather behave more like a planetary nebula.
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    Revellation .
    Ive come to the conclusion that Gravity is not instataneous . gravity takes time to travel as does light.
    It seems to me that the only way we can get these catheryn wheel type of galaxies, which all are, is if the central black mass is spinning and moving and its gravity is influencing the fall of material into itself . Consequently over time the gravity influencing the outer originates from a different position and is never the same position until the falling mass gets very close.


    Last edited by tytower; 30-05-17 at 09:09 AM.
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  • #144
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    Tytower discovers general relativity.
    However, there is nothing new here. If you look up at the sky and see the Andromeda galaxy 2 million light years away, the milky way galaxy is gravitationally attracted to where you see it in the sky.
    It is of course actually closer, and as it continues to get closer, the relativity lag shortens. But this doesn't make a lot of difference because of the huge timescales involved.

    The next revelation you're going to need to grasp is that gravity isn't quite real. It's not gravity that you're experiencing, it's a distortion in an otherwise flat space-time.
    How fast space-time itself can react is still governed by general relativity.

    The bowling ball on the trampoline is the classic example. If we use a high speed camera and instantaneously make the bowling ball vanish. The trampoline in that instant retains it's hyperbolic shape.
    It then elastically returns to a flat surface. This takes time. The outter edge of the gravity well will not change until the event of the ball dissappearing has time to reach it. In space-time this is the speed of light.
    The trampoline material represents space-time, but gravity itself doesn't exist, it's just the curvature of the material (in the extra dimension of our 2 dimensional model)
    When the material changes it's position, this is what we measure of a gravitational wave. (which in this case, actually looks like a gravity wave - which is a different thing).

    Reminder - material is not "falling" into a galaxy, no more than the Earth is falling into the sun. The material in a galaxy is "orbiting" the galaxy.
    The spiral arms are not caused by the central mass of a galaxy, they are density shock waves. The same thing causes traffic jams on freeways for no apparent reason and the knocking that happens in you house water pipes.

    So some things for Tytower to consider (if he is trying to grasp the gravity in terms of general relativity).

    Where to circular and elliptical galaxies fit into this picture?
    Why aren't they disc shaped?
    Why are the smooth and don't have any lumpiness?
    Why do some spiral galaxies have central bulges and others don't?
    Why do some galaxies rotate backwards with relation to their spiral arms?
    Why do the outter parts of a galaxy rotate faster than the inner part?

    Why do spiral galaxies have different numbers of arms?
    Why do some spiral galaxies have a bar in them?
    Why do some disc shaped galaxies have no arms at all but just a ring?
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  • #145
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    Third gravitational wave detection puts new spin on black holes
    Cheers, Tiny
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  • #146
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    Each instrument uses laser beams to constantly measure the lengths of two perpendicular 4km pipes, with stunning accuracy; tiny, fleeting changes in length can reveal a passing gravitational wave.
    I found this bit interesting. How they managed to get 4km long Perpendicular pipes that were not affected by weather, or geology. [url=https://www.ligo.caltech.edu/page/what-is-ligo]Of course it isn't so....
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  • #147
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    They are lsemmens.
    The tube are evacuated with a hard vacuum so that any pressure waves that get into the tube are minimal.
    But noise still gets in. The most obvious is things like vibrations from trucks driving past on a nearby highway. I think the highway is about 40km away.
    Thunderstorms are detected by it. Earthquakes are definitely picked up by it. Planes flying past also cause noise.
    I haven't heard of satellites flying overhead causing noise, but it would't surprise me.
    It's rather amusing how sensitive it is.

    Of course what really makes the difference is signal correlation.
    The signal is the same at each site, but the noise is unique.
    So a truck driving past one site will not be heard at the other.
    If a gravity wave passes through, then both detectors will hear it at roughly the same time and that signal will correlate.
    The difference between the two detectors gives it some ability to determine the direction. More detectors means more accuracy in both signal correlation/resolution and direction.
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  • #148
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    You are saying that they are Perpendicular? From my reading, it appears that they were Horizontal. If they were perpendicular, a stiff breeze would make a 4km long "sky scraper" wobble around so much that finding a "straight line" would be next to impossible. If it were sunk 4Km into the ground, it will be a lot more stable, however, some minor earth tremors may well affect the integrity of the structure. Horizontally, on the ground, at least, mitigating factors can, at least, be introduced.
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    Perpendicular = right angle to each other.

    For any one leg, there are two other dimensions that the second leg can be in.
    Lets say leg 1 is north-south
    The other leg can be up-down OR east-west. As you might have already guessed, it's not up-down.

    The stability isn't so much of an issue. After all, if the ground is going to shake, it's going to shake. You can't stop it.
    So you have to factor it in.

    Space diversity and correlation of the detectors is how it is done on the basic level.
    Remember that LIGO is not just one detector, it's two (and more).
    Solving the ground shaking problem is quite simple.

    What is harder is the mirrors themselves are moving. They're suspended from cables to reduce noise but even just their thermal temperature makes their atoms shake like a jellyfish in a helicopter.

    On the local level, the laser does not just travel up one arm and back to the detector. It traverses each arm hundreds of times. (I don't know exactly how many times each beam is reflected before they are brought back to the detector). What this achieves is the time it takes for the light to travel, the position of the atoms in the mirror change.
    Each time the atoms are in a randomly different position. The more times the laser bounces, the more this thermal noise is averaged out and the more sensitive the detector can become (Shannon's theorem).

    So while the minor details of the detectors are complex, the big picture is actually very simple.
    It's actually simple enough that anybody can build a extremely simple ligo type detector. Of course it won't be sensitive enough to detect gravitational waves, but it will be sensitive enough to pick up all kinds of local noise.
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    We also have a speed for gravity waves 1000km in1 ms , thats 1million killometers a second so thats 3 times faster than light



    in particlar the wave was detected in two places 3000 km apart

    On Jan. 4, 2017, at 1058.6 UTC, a gravitational ripple was recorded passing through one of LIGO’s detectors, in Hanford, Washington. Three milliseconds later it passed through the twin detector more than 3,000 kilometers away in Livingston, Louisiana. The ripple caused each detector to alternately expand and shrink ever so slightly, generating a small wiggle in the data gathered by both detectors.
    I found this chart of sizes interesting too.
    The black mass at the center of our milky way galaxy is estimated to be at least 4 million or more solar masses so it would show as a straight line at the top of this chart

    CAPE CANAVERAL, Fla (Reuters) – - A black hole 12 billion times as massive as the sun has been found in a glowing quasar that existed when the universe was just a fraction of its current age, scientists said on Wednesday.

    The discovery challenges currently held theories that black holes and their host galaxies grew in relative lockstep over the eons.

    Found within the distant celestial bodies called quasars, black holes are regions of space so dense with matter that not even light can travel fast enough to escape their gravitational pits. Black holes are detected by effects they have on nearby galaxies, stars and dust.

    The newly found black hole contains the equivalent of about 12 billion suns, more than twice the mass of previously found black holes of similar age, said researcher Bram Venemans with the Max Planck Institute for Astronomy in Germany.

    By comparison, the black hole lurking at the center of the Milky Way galaxy has about 4 million to 5 million times the mass of the sun.
    Last edited by tytower; 04-06-17 at 09:54 AM.
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    Considering the relative sizes of "Black Masses" that are being touted around by these guys ie 5 Million solar masses in our milky way galaxy and 60 solar masses they are claiming to be detecting which are 3 billion light years from Earth I'm starting to think they are pulling a Phurphy!

    Our own central black mass being so large they are not going to be able to pull anything in over that . Like trying to see a star 3 billion light years away in full direct sunlight .

    Extremely suspect, finance seekers again I think. Something else is changing the length of the 4 kilometer tunnels.
    Or maybe its more of Clinton / Trump "False News" again
    Last edited by tytower; 04-06-17 at 10:06 AM.
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  • #152
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    Perpendicular = right angle to each other.
    DoH!! I always think of perpendicular as "up and down" but, that is "vertical"! Of course it is at right angles, regardless of the orientation!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    DoH!! I always think of perpendicular as "up and down" but, that is "vertical"! Of course it is at right angles, regardless of the orientation!!
    "Doh!" - That's the sound of science working. I'm correcting and updating what I know.
    "Huh?" - That's another. Nobody shout's Eureka, they stop and notice when something that went wrong.

    "Doh!" is a good thing.

    So right now Tytower <i>should</i> be asking why and how gravitational waves can reach both detectors in 3 milliseconds.
    "so thats 3 times faster than light
    When you hear Tytower say "Doh!" it means he realised he made a simple mistake.
    Not the words "faster than the speed of light", which means the wrong answer.

    Hint: Today's word is "perpendicular".
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    Reflecting on this gravity thing and its speed and apparent wave motion I got to wondering if a black mass can get so large as to hold back gravity like it holds back light ? Probably not . I think it would destroy itself before it got that big . However if it didn't explode and did hold back gravity what an odd scene.

    You would be able to pass right by it without even seeing it or feeling its gravity

    Any accretion disk feeding matter into it would likely dissipate as there would be no gravity to attract it . So it might not be there either . Weird situation to imagine.


    This one is the case of the disappearing star (sun) -where did it go ,what did it become?
    Last edited by tytower; 08-06-17 at 01:45 PM.
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  • #155
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    Nah! It's just those norty Aliens disguising themselves as Stars and, when they've finished studying us, they've just moved on..........
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    They say in the below article that they are using a gravitational lensing technique with Hubble and finding that some older galaxies are elliptical in shape whereas they should be a normal spiral . Thinking along the lines of what we do to light with fish-eye type lenses I'm doubting the elliptical result and thinking perhaps their "lensing" is giving false data.

    Keep in mind the picture is an "Artist's Impression".

    I still think all of a galaxie's matter falls in to a central black mass and then explodes out again to eventually all fall back in again in a continuous perpetual motion. Anything exhibiting an elliptical shape is going to be caused by two black masses circling each other for a while until they meet.




    Confirming this assumption in principle requires more powerful space telescopes than are currently available. However, through the phenomenon known as "gravitational lensing," a massive, foreground cluster of galaxies acts as a natural "zoom lens" in space by magnifying and stretching images of far more distant background galaxies. By joining this natural lens with the resolving power of Hubble, scientists were able to see into the center of the dead galaxy.
    Last edited by tytower; 25-06-17 at 07:48 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    They say in the below article that they are using a gravitational lensing technique with Hubble and finding that some older galaxies are elliptical in shape whereas they should be a normal spiral.
    Do you read the articles that you reference Tytower? Because it doesn't say that all.

    ... I'm doubting the elliptical result and thinking perhaps their "lensing" is giving false data.
    If you don't read the article and don't understand what is being said, then nobody is going to take what you say seriously.

    I still think all of a galaxie's matter falls in to a central black mass
    This is completely wrong (AGAIN) because you don't read anything that doesn't agree with your own imagination.
    Matter does not fall into a black hole any different to the planets fall into the sun. It doesn't happen. (except under rare exceptional circumstances).
    This is another point which was made in references in your previous posts and you did not understand the ramifications of it then and you're completely missing the point again now.
    I'll introduce the concept of time travel to this thread and predict that Tytower misrepresents another url in his next post.

    ... falls in to a central black mass and then explodes out again to eventually all fall back in again in a continuous perpetual motion.
    It sounds like logic in this thread.

    Anything exhibiting an elliptical shape is going to be caused by two black masses circling each other for a while until they meet.
    On what evidence do you base this statement?
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    This one is 400 Million Light Years away .
    have you ever stopped to consider thet?
    400,000,000 years away travelling at the speed of light ,300.000 kilometers a second .
    Right now as we view it ,Its certainly not where it was when the light/radiation left it.

    2XMM J143450.5+033843 lies nearly 400 million light-years away from Earth. It is a Seyfert galaxy that is dominated by something known as an Active Galactic Nucleus -- its core is thought to contain a supermassive black hole that is emitting huge amounts of radiation, pouring energetic X-rays out into the universe. The other fuzzy object in the frame was named in the same way -- it is a bright galaxy named 2XMM J143448.3+033749.
    Credit: ESA/Hubble & NASA
    Last edited by tytower; 01-07-17 at 09:16 AM.
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  • #159
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    Of course, tytower, your statement is erroneous, only by about 400,000,000 years; "It was a Seyfert galaxy that was dominated by something known as an Active Galactic Nucleus -- its core was thought to contain a supermassive black hole that emitted huge amounts of radiation, pouring energetic X-rays out into the universe. The other fuzzy object in the frame was named in the same way -- it was a bright galaxy named 2XMM J143448.3+033749.
    Credit: ESA/Hubble & NASA "
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    This is a nickel iron meteorite.

    It's 5 billion years old. Where you see it now it wasn't there 5 billion years ago.

    This is what is known as an orphan fact. It may be true but it doesn't belong to any useful meaning.
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