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Thread: Life and times of a black hole

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    Here they are again playing round the edges . Loath to admit everything out of nothing is just plain absurd.
    It seems cyclic and then so is everything in nature.



    "Once reaching the mass of 34,000 times that of our Sun, the star collapsed by its own gravity, leaving a massive black hole. These massive black holes born in the early universe continued to grow and merge together to become a supermassive black hole,"
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    More on the matter being ejected from the poles of a black mass.
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    Tired of talking to yourself yet Tytower??
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    I see the scientists are starting to look at the possibility that this might be a cyclic never ending process after all . The big bang was just one phase preceeded by the big shrink , preceeded by a previous big bang , preceeded by the previous big shrink ad infinitum.

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    Quote Originally Posted by porkop View Post
    Tired of talking to yourself yet Tytower??
    First thing I notice is you read it . Thats good , not necessary but good . Others will too.
    However that's not what I started this thread for .

    I started it because I thought about the subject a lot and as I did so my views changed from time to time . I thought if I posted it here I could keep a track of how my views changed with the added benefit of other views being expressed from time to time by other people.

    I didn't expect to be trolled but then that's a fact of life on free speech forums and I would not have it any other way.

    It also serves to collect information I have found on the subject in one public place and ensures I don't loose it in my plethora of file backups that never get done properly.
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    800 Million times the size of our sun and 13 billion light years away from us



    “This is the only object we have observed from this era,” says Robert Simcoe, the Francis L. Friedman Professor of Physics in MIT’s Kavli Institute for Astrophysics and Space Research. “It has an extremely high mass, and yet the universe is so young that this thing shouldn’t exist. The universe was just not old enough to make a black hole that big. It’s very puzzling.”
    Last edited by tytower; 07-12-17 at 08:03 PM.
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    There is discussion about the existence of life on our planet back 3 1/2 Billion years ago
    You will recall that it is thought that our planet is 4 1/2 billion years old

    There is also the strange visitor from deep space that might be a spaceship perhaps .


    And here on viruses


    All interesting reads but I start to think about a cyclic universe in which black masses are compressing and exploding regularly in an infiite space and infinite time.

    After each massive explosion some small parts of the original may well escape the eventual fall back in and become universe roamers like the object they are watching in the above link. This especially so if the black mass is in the vicinity of one or more other black masses in various stages of expansion or contraction. Keep in mind also that this "spaceship" is in fact perhaps only moving through our solar system from another and we could not know from where it originated or will meet its demise.

    Small micro organisms are know to survive on these already so I'm wondering if life is infinite too? Constantly seeding matter falling back in with life as we know it developing all the way down until it hits the massively compressed stage of a black mass and then ejected back out to start the cycle again.
    Last edited by tytower; 19-12-17 at 09:31 AM.
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    This is the supermassive black mass at the center of our galaxy . The milky way . This one is pulling you in right now!

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    Supposedly ALMA is able to image this galaxy .
    I will have to have a closer look at what ALMA is doing .
    I am suspicious of this for some reason . It seems contrived .

    AhA these are both artists impressions . The real photo is the last one . Thats what they have seen ,gas moving toward us and gas moving away.

    The team imaged the area around the supermassive black hole in M77 and resolved a compact gaseous structure with a radius of 20 light-years. And, the astronomers found that the compact structure is rotating around the black hole, as expected
    More here at ALMA site


    ARTISTS IMPRESSIONS !



    Last edited by tytower; 15-02-18 at 09:43 AM.
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    People ,including me , seem to have great difficulty getting their imagination to encompass what might be happening inside black masses.
    Here is an article on Jupiter and its cyclones around cyclones on its poles and an artists impression of what it looks like.


    extrapolate then, from that, what happens in the sun and then start to consider what might be happening inside something many millions of times bigger than the sun and you start to appreciate there would be a lot happening that we will probably never know about.
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    I've said it before that there is a lot going on in a supermassive black mass. Stuff we will likely never understand because the compression and forces are so great.
    However its nice to see observers taking notice of such events happening and confirming what I only suspected.



    Dheeraj Pasham, a postdoc in MIT’s Kavli Institute for Astrophysics and Space Research, says the highly similar patterns suggest that the power of the jet shooting out from the black hole is somehow controlled by the rate at which the black hole is feeding on the obliterated star.

    “This is telling us the black hole feeding rate is controlling the strength of the jet it produces,” Pasham says. “A well-fed black hole produces a strong jet, while a malnourished black hole produces a weak jet or no jet at all. This is the first time we’ve seen a jet that’s controlled by a feeding supermassive black hole.”
    Pasham says scientists have suspected that black hole jets are powered by their accretion rate, but they have never been able to observe this relationship from a single event.
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    I was taken to read the below site and thought back to the early parts of this thread when a certain person made absolute statements that "no there was no gas coming out of a black mass" and "no they are not that big". Both completely wrong if the current thinking and publications can be relied on.

    Also it is interesting that where two black masses have been attracted to each other the present thinking is that the masses finally merge. If that is the case then we have all black masses increasing in size continually until at some point where there must be a trigger size when the whole thing explodes outwards and rebirths the galaxy system. A big bang for each and every individual black mass!

    But...That means then a changing universe because once started as a black mass it must keep growing until it explodes again. When it explodes all that material like a cannon shot flys out in every direction only so far until gravity pulls it back in to the remnants of a center.
    Assuming it eats at least one other black mass in its lifetime then each full cycle is getting bigger.

    Hence we have an ever expanding universe perhaps and a gradual movement of all the galaxies into one? .Perhaps not if new black masses are continually being created by the accumulation of matter elsewhere.




    The team zeroed in on NGC 6240, in part, because galaxies with two supermassive black holes at their centers are relatively rare. Some experts also suspect that those twin hearts have given rise to the galaxy's unusual appearance. Unlike the Milky Way, which forms a relatively tidy disk, bubbles and jets of gas shoot off from NGC 6240, extending more than 30,000 light years into space and resembling a butterfly in flight.
    Last edited by tytower; 19-04-18 at 09:41 AM.
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    Now, what I want to know is how they know that they are circling one another getting ready to collide They could be just circling one another on their way apart. Given the time period involved, we are unlikely to ever know whether they will collide, so it is all just speculation, unless, of course, they have records going back billions of years.........I thought not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    I was taken to read the below site and thought back to the early parts of this thread when a certain person made absolute statements that "no there was no gas coming out of a black mass" and "no they are not that big". Both completely wrong if the current thinking and publications can be relied on.
    Really Tytower? I'll bite because your ability for self delusion is hilarious and astounding.
    Incapable of understanding your own arguments or backing them up with logical debate, you pick random science publications and claim they agree with you.
    It's like starting your own religion and then claiming you're god's chosen one.
    The reality is, that very little of what you say is true. It's entertaining up to the point where you might be dyseducating the readers.


    "Nothing is coming out of a black mass". This is your misquote of my words which is, "Nothing comes out of a black hole. Not energy, not matter."
    This is still 100% correct and nothing comes out of a black hole. Nothing crosses the event horizon in an outward direction.
    Your claim that anything comes out of a black hole is just plain and simply wrong.

    For the readers, Tytower 'thinks' that the polar jets emitted from black holes are matter. They are not. They are high energy X-rays and Gamma Rays. They are Energy.
    They do not come from within the black hole. They are emitted from outside of the black hole and are the result of angular momentum lost from matter falling into a black hole.

    X-rays and light in other forms are also emitted from the accretion disk that forms around a black hole. In order for matter to fall into a black hole it needs to loose energy.
    The does this either via a kinetic method which is basically what we call friction in the same way that a satellite falls to earth by atmospheric friction, or via Bremsstrahlung (synchrotron radiation).
    Again, at no time is this emitted from within a black hole. These events occur outside of the event horizon.

    Tytower is even confused by his own words. Because the quote he references from the article he thinks are emitted from within the black holes. They are not. Nowhere in the article does it make this claim. This claim is just Tytower's fantasy.
    The gas bubbles are gravitationally ejected from the binary black hole system no different to the way an asteroid or planet might be ejected from a binary star system. Jets of gas are also not emitted from withing a black hole.
    Molecules of gas in the path of the X-ray jets mentioned above, are blown along akin to dust blown by a jet of air.


    Tytower also thinks that supermassive black holes are "big". His misrepresentation of my words, "no they are not that big" needs to be put into context.
    What do you consider to be big?
    An ant is big with respect to an atom. An ant is hundreds of millions of times bigger than an atom.
    The Earth is bigger than an ant. The earth is typically hundreds of millions of times bigger than an ant.
    The sun is hundreds of times bigger than the Earth, yet it is a relatively small star.

    Black holes are relatively small objects. Stellar mass black holes are only a few kilometres across. They are small when even compared with the earth.
    Supermassive black holes are tiny when it comes to the size of their galaxies.

    As a common example, The Milky Way galaxy has a supermassive black hole (Sagitarius A*) at it's center. The diameter of this black hole is about 88 million kilometres.
    It is big compared to the Earth, but compared to our solar system, it would easily fit between the Sun and Venus.
    It's barely ten times the size of the sun. So my words, "they are not that big" hold VERY true.

    Compared to the galaxy, black holes are 10 billion times smaller than their galaxies.
    Even the biggest black holes in the universe are still less than 0.25% of a light year across.
    They're big by comparison to most stars, but there are still stars that are bigger.


    Also it is interesting that where two black masses have been attracted to each other the present thinking is that the masses finally merge. If that is the case then we have all black masses increasing in size continually until at some point where there must be a trigger size when the whole thing explodes outwards and rebirths the galaxy system. A big bang for each and every individual black mass!
    the whole thing explodes outwards and rebirths the galaxy system.
    Complete fantasy. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. There is absolutely no evidence or even theory to support this "bouncing universe" model.
    This is just Tytower's speculation. It is worth entertaining, but we soon discovery that this scenario is not correct. It doesn't happen.

    Hence we have an ever expanding universe perhaps and a gradual movement of all the galaxies into one?
    A primary school student will notice the most basic error with this statement.
    A = an ever expanding universe = everything is moving further apart from everything else and will continue to do so.
    B = a gradual movement of all the galaxies into one = everything is moving closer together and will do so until unity.

    A = B but these are mutually exclusive statements. Everything is expanding to a single point. (This statement is nonsense.)

    .Perhaps not if new black masses are continually being created by the accumulation of matter elsewhere.
    This requires clarification Tytower. Define "elsewhere".
    Where is elsewhere with respect to "here" being the center of a galaxy?
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Now, what I want to know is how they know that they are circling one another getting ready to collide They could be just circling one another on their way apart. Given the time period involved, we are unlikely to ever know whether they will collide, so it is all just speculation, unless, of course, they have records going back billions of years.........I thought not.
    I would doubt there is any way they could get away from each other ! Some more reading is required . They are colliding all the time . If the mass goes over some magic critical figure they explode,otherwise they wait for the next one I guess
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    OK Trash its time to stop the ridiculous pursuit. Your views are old hat by twenty years . We have moved on . Perhaps if you really read what I have posted ......but its a bit late in the day for that isn't it . Your buddies jump in and pat you on the back but are they just your pen names? They don't seem to read much whoever they are .



    Now Lsemmens have a read here. Its about neutron stars but thats just the same except black masses are bigger and have gotten to the size that light can't escape.


    A quote from that
    Neutron stars are the most dense objects we know of, except for black holes: imagine the Sun squashed into a region the size of a city.

    When two neutron stars collide they form a new object that has slightly less mass than the two original stars: in this case likely a new black hole. A tiny fraction of the mass is blasted out as both matter and energy (remember E=mc2) and that is what we detect on Earth.
    If you consider the orbit of one object around another . Remember one is falling towards the other like a cannon ball and the orbit is achieved by its forward speed relative to the other otherwise it would crash right in . That is doubled up here and I guess the forward speed becomes dropping speed and in they both go.

    Its not going to take years rather days once they are close.
    Last edited by tytower; 01-05-18 at 06:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tytower View Post
    OK Trash its time to stop the ridiculous pursuit. Your views are old hat by twenty years . We have moved on . Perhaps if you really read what I have posted ......but its a bit late in the day for that isn't it . Your buddies jump in and pat you on the back but are they just your pen names? They don't seem to read much whoever they are .
    Hey, it's your pursuit Ty-Quixote. I'm just here to make sure you don't make ordinary people dumber with hairbrained theories.
    My views are those based on scientific evidence and observation. They're easily verified by real, sane and ordinary people and easily corrected when they are in error.
    They're not wild and unfounded speculation which is easily demonstrated to be incorrect.

    No you haven't moved on. You're still spouting the same hair brained theories without answering any questions. We have a name for this, it's called "religion".
    You make shit up without evidence and expect others to believe you. Then place yourself beyond question. (That is not science - what are you doing in this thread?) Anybody that questions you is blasphemous.
    Which of course makes me your anti-christ because I call you to question time and time again and every time you refuse to:
    - answer simple questions
    - re-explain you vague theories if readers can't understand them
    - admit your mistakes or at least correct them (maybe even learn from them).
    - adjust your theories based on new evidence or any evidence
    - make sure they agree with observations and they are correct and can be verified.


    I read everything you post tytower. And after I have stopped laughing I get a sheet of A3 paper and in very small writing I make a very big list of your logical fallacies, and your illogical fallacies and you mythological fantasies.

    It's really not that hard. You spout a theory. I refute what you get wrong with evidence to show why your wrong.
    You should then accept you made a mistake and publicly correct your mistake. Nobody but you thinks poorly of yourself for making a mistake. They only think poorly of you for not realising your mistakes.

    If you do not understand the mistake you have made, then you should question me about it. Understand why your wrong or understand that I've made a mistake and explain it to me (like I have done for you).

    When you spout a theory that is not demonstrably incorrect or it is incoherent, I will ask you questions or ask you to clarify what you mean, like I did in your last post.
    eg
    .Perhaps not if new black masses are continually being created by the accumulation of matter elsewhere.
    Define "elsewhere".

    Your buddies jump in and pat you on the back.
    Oh that's a good one tytower. I don't have any 'buddies' or "nom de plumes" here.

    They're a vicious pack of head hunters who are more than happy to logically take me down and I'm happy for them to try and even happier if they succeed. You included.
    Just look at any reference to Tachyons on this forum. I hard balled this one (based on solid evidence) and everybody took their best shot at it. I wanted them to be right and for this I will be their harshest critic and most amusing tormentor.
    And the Tachyon jokes continue to this day and they always make me laugh.

    And there is plenty of evidence on this forum where I have gone out on a limb and made a wildarse guess or bet against myself and been completely wrong.
    Though it's a damn shame that Eta Carinae didn't go supernova in 2012, because I would have been a god. Like a psychic winning the lottery on nothing but dumb luck and everybody convinced of their magical power.

    No tytower, I think that your upset that nobody is patting you on the back to help knock that massive chip off your shoulder.
    Stop being such a lazy theorist and make at least a half arsed effort to getting some details correct and being able to "logically" explain them.
    Your posts will then be interesting rather than just entertaining.



    So back to the last question which you refuse to answer or could not answer.
    .Perhaps not if new black masses are continually being created by the accumulation of matter elsewhere.
    Define "elsewhere".

    This is leading you to explain where new material comes from to supply your "big bounce" model universe.
    Last edited by trash; 02-05-18 at 12:44 AM.
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    Well it seems to be a busy place , the center of our galaxy.
    Bit like a bees hive of black masses

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    "That one has a mass of 5 million solar masses — that is 40,000 times less mass than the one that we have now found," Dr Wolf says.
    ....."20 billion times the mass of the Sun"
    5e+6 x 4e+4 = 2e+11 ..... somebody in the ABC can't count
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