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Thread: Turnbulls FTTN

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    Last edited by allover; 19-09-16 at 04:07 PM.
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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  • #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Fixed location has nothing to do with being antiquated , unless you think living in a cosy home is an antiquated lifestyle.
    .
    I think having an Internet Connection locked to an address antiquated, very antiquated.
    Considering the NBN are offering 25Mbps fixed location and an old 3G connection is 20Mbps and 4G cracks 60-70Mpbs.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 19-09-16 at 09:03 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    I think having an Internet Connection locked to an address antiquated, very antiquated.
    Considering the NBN are offering 25Mbps fixed location and an old 3G connection is 20Mbps and 4G cracks 60-70Mpbs.
    Wow, you really still live in yesteryear

    Thinking for the moment (a common trait of our current politicians) is antiquated.
    A single fibre does 1Gbps and there is no perceivable limit. Tests have been done up to 73.7Tbps. 1Tb = 1000Gb.

    ...and your ignorance of the laws of physics will still not avoid network congestion.
    Your quoted 4G speeds are only available for a limited amount of users simultaneously. If everybody in town was using only 4G trying to watch FHD telly you would probably be slugging around at dial-up speeds.
    Lucky most use fixed line.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 20-09-16 at 11:31 AM.
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    I am wondering if Oceanboy was meaning portability as we had with Dialup as all you needed was a phone line and you were away.

    Those who are old enough would remember 'In the Beginning there was Acoustic Coupling' which used a rubber (NOT one of thems) cap fitted over the handpiece and the transfer was done by tones so you didnt have to physically connect to the line at all.
    I have often wondered is it feasible to go to a place where ADSL was available and you 'connect' and use your account similar to these 'Hot Spots' that Telstra has been trying to introduce.

    I am going to make a major statement here that I think Mobile Wireless Broadband is available in MORE areas than ADSL based on the coverage area of the Mobile Phone network today.
    There are many areas you can get mobile reception but there is no ADSL like my own area.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    A single fibre does 1Gbps and there is no perceivable limit. Tests have been done up to 73.7Tbps. 1Tb = 1000Gb.
    It is normally 2 fibres (one for each direction). You can get by with a single fibre in a 1/2 duplex configuration, but it is generally simpler & more efficient to use 2. Before I retired 9 years ago, we had 10Gbps running on commercially available equipment which was not significantly more expensive than the 1Gbps gear. The main issue was that the density of the terminal equipment wasn't as great as the 1Gbps gear.

    The limitations of fibre bandwidth are mainly in the noise generated in transmitters, receivers and repeaters. With current generations, it is possible to provide at least 2 orders of magnitude greater bandwidth than could conceivably be utilised by domestic situations. AFAIK there are no commonly available domestic devices that exceed 1Gbps interfaces, so there is very little point in providing greater bandwidth. The real requirement is very long distance cables (submarine cables) with very high capacity requirements. There are trade-offs in the number of fibres, versus the bandwidth per fibre, versus the spacing and power requirements of repeaters; but this does not affect households.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post
    I have often wondered is it feasible to go to a place where ADSL was available and you 'connect' and use your account similar to these 'Hot Spots' that Telstra has been trying to introduce.
    Telstra Air it is called and the speed from those WiFi hotspots is limited to 2Mbps !!!

    How many GB per month do all you mobile fans have on your contract?
    Last time I checked Telstra had a 'whopping' 10GB for AU$55 and the usage of wifi hotspots is deducted from that, although they are baiting you ATM with free deals, probably because of their stuff ups with their technology lately.

    Anyhow that 10GB reminds me of somebody(Bill Gates denies now saying it) from MicroSoft in the 1980's saying: Nobody will ever need more than 1MB of memory!
    I have 250GB per month on my NBN contract and it is still not enough. Apparently I live in a different world.


    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post
    I am going to make a major statement here that I think Mobile Wireless Broadband is available in MORE areas than ADSL based on the coverage area of the Mobile Phone network today.
    There are many areas you can get mobile reception but there is no ADSL like my own area.
    No major statement at all. At least one forwards thinking politician noticed that too and decided to create a National Broadband Network to deal with this problem.
    Unfortunately he was ahead of time because it appears to me that most Australians still prefer to live in the last century.
    Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
    Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
    Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...

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  • #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post

    No major statement at all. At least one forwards thinking politician noticed that too and decided to create a National Broadband Network to deal with this problem.
    Unfortunately he was ahead of time because it appears to me that most Australians still prefer to live in the last century.
    After just finishing work for the census (harassing ppl to fill out the form or online) I am surprised the number of ppl without internet access, not to mention young and old ppl who say they cant use a 'pooter

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    Oh dear, things are not rosy
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    Oh dear, things are not rosy

    Paywalled.

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    On the evening of July 20, at the Four Points Sheraton hotel in Sydney, Communications Minister Mitch Fifield rose to give a speech to a room of telco industry executives.
    The event was the ACCOM Awards, the academy awards for Australia's telcos, where the industry's achievements are showcased.
    Fifield, dressed in a pin-stripe suit and cream tie, delivered a speech mixed with jokes that drew laughs from the crowd. But then Fifield made a gag about NBN Co's controversial data fee, the CVC charge.
    The crowd went silent.
    "I came to realise at the academy awards of the telco sector … the sensitivity on the issue of CVC," says Fifield.


    That sensitivity became real financial pain for . NBN levies the CVC charge on telcos or retailers of internet services that sell its ultra-fast broadband to customers.
    By the week's end investors had wiped $2.2 billion from TPG's market capitalisation. Meanwhile, one of Fifield's advisers was dismissing the fall in TPG's market cap as not a big deal.
    This was almost two months to the day that Fifield had become acutely aware at the awards ceremony of the sensitivity around the CVC charge.
    Going for broke

    Turns out the problem with the NBN is not the slow roll-out, but the slow speeds, compared to the rest of the world, and now the high price. Rob Homer
    Following the TPG warning industry professionals spoke out, claiming some telcos and internet companies providing NBN packages could go broke if the government didn't act to address the CVC charge. . cautioned that customers could end up shunning the high-speed internet plans on offer if the NBN persists with the high CVC charge.
    So what is the CVC? The NBN applies two charges to companies that sell its ultra-fast broadband.
    The first is a charge to access the NBN, known as the AVC. This is applied on a sliding scale according to speed. If a telco or internet company is providing an internet package where the download speeds are only 12 mega bits per second the monthly fee it pays to the NBN for each customer is $24. This climbs to $34 for speeds of 50 to 100 Mbps and then to $150 if the download speed is 1 Gigabyte.
    The CVC charge is for volume, or how much data a telco or internet service provider purchases from the NBN. This charge was originally $17.50 per Mbps. Even though this was lowered to $15.75 per Mbps in June it has proved way too high for the industry – giving rise to this week's crisis.

    Everyone's got a reason to be worried. TPG's David Tehoe, ACCC's Rod Sims and the communications minister Mitch Fifield. David Rowe
    The high cost has crimped how much data telcos and internet service providers are willing to purchase. Frustratingly, this has occurred at a time when customer demand for data has exploded with the popularity of streaming services such as Netflix, Stan and live sport.
    The result has been poor-service issues for users of the NBN. And this makes it harder to convince customers to switch from older broadband services such as ADSL2+ to the NBN, until those older services are turned off.
    'CVC not set in stone'

    NBN plans to connect 8 million homes and business by 2020. Currently, the NBN has 1.09 million active users. However, only 942,356 users can access speeds of 100 Mbps and of those 14 per cent are paying for that service.


    Earlier this year, technology group Akamai released its State of the Internet connectivity report, which it has been producing for almost a decade. In that report, it looked at what percentage of broadband customers were achieving speeds of 15Mbps or above across the globe. In Australia, it estimated at 10 per cent; in New Zealand 15 per cent, the United States and United Kingdom at about one-third, and in Hong Kong almost half of all customers.
    Central to boosting the NBN's revenues is getting more users and data usage onto its network. NBN's average revenue per user has grown from $37 to $43 in the past two years, and is forecast to be $52 by 2020. (It combines residential and business when calculating that ARPU)
    The NBN responded to the telco industry's complaints about the CVC charge by introducing what it calls "dimension-based discounts" (DBD), which are being trialled. Under this plan, the CVC charge falls as more data is bought by telcos and internet service providers.
    "NBN is acutely aware of this issue. It has been consulting retail service providers," says Fifield. "It's trialling offering a discount for those retail service providers who purchase a greater amount of network capacity. NBN have indicated there will be further unit price reductions of the CVC. This isn't set in stone and the NBN isn't going to cut its nose off to spite its face."


    It's a view shared by Dr Mark Gregory, a senior lecturer at RMIT's School of Engineering. "The NBN can do little else other than to decrease the CVC charge or to consider getting rid of it altogether and going to a flat fee like other countries," he says. New Zealand charges a flat fee of $44.
    "If you get more customers you offset the loss of decreasing or getting rid of the CVC charge. The problem the NBN has got at the moment is they're not getting the 80 per cent of customers that they need onto the NBN and not fast enough. NBN Co has got to get more customers onto it as quickly as possible. That has to be the imperative."
    Complex discount scheme

    Under the complex discount scheme NBN has introduced the 50 or so telcos and internet service providers it works with currently pay a CVC fee of $15.75 per Mbps.
    This fee applies to an average taken of the data purchased per user by those 50 companies. Currently the average sits in a band between 700 to 849 kilobytes per second. For this usage NBN applies the $15.75 Mpbs fee. When those 50 companies increase capacity to customers so that it moves into the next band where the end user is receiving 850 to 999 kpbs, the CVC fee falls to $15.25. This step down continues to a current floor for the CVC charge of $11.50.
    The complaints about the fee should be seen in the context of NBN noting in its annual report that it had exceeded its revenue targets for the year, with revenue having grown from $257 million to $421 million in the year to June.
    Telco companies have asked Rod Sims, chairman of the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission, to review the CVC charge. This week Sims told The Australian Financial Review that a balance must be struck between the telco industry and the NBN, with the latter needing to earn a modest return on its investment.
    "The idea that people want to pay a fixed price and get more and more data over time may not be realistic," he said.


    The battle over the CVC is just another stumbling block for the NBN, which was conceived as a driver of economic growth – a new telecommunications service that would deliver ultra-fast broadband, with download speeds of 100Mbps. In theory, faster internet would lead to the creation of new businesses and applications in tele health and education; make consumers, government agencies and companies more productive and competitive with the rest of the world.
    But in other parts of the world download speeds of 1GB are now being offered, which has some questioning the technology of the NBN. When the NBN was originally proposed by the Labor government it was to be rolled out as a network built with fibre to the premises at an estimated cost $36 billion. Fibre to the premises has been rolled out in countries from the United States to France.
    Multi-technology mix

    However, to save money, the NBN roll-out was changed to a multi-technology mix under pressure from then prime minister Tony Abbott after his Coalition government won office.
    Latest estimates are that the NBN may cost between $46 billion and $54 billion by 2020.
    Debate continues to rage as to whether the switch in NBN technology by the Coalition was a mistake in terms of the quality and speed of the service delivered. Both Labor and the Coalition have staked claims on a superior and less costly NBN.
    As a project the NBN also draws criticism because of its cost. It's the biggest spend undertaken in Australia's telecommunications sector in at least half a century. It's fiercest critics argue it could have been built by the private sector. But it's unlikely the private sector ever would have delivered ultra-fast broadband to regional and remote Australia without government support.
    If the NBN costs $50 billion, it will be a price tag similar to what the federal government is spending on buying 12 French submarines to upgrade the country's defence capacity. It will also be a similar spend to the $50 billion the federal government has earmarked for investment in road and rail infrastructure over a seven-year period until 2020.


    "It's perplexing why so much fuss is made," says Dr Gregory.




    Last edited by mandc; 25-09-16 at 03:17 PM.

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    Not paywalled here.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Just in case people start to get the wrong idea regarding the separated AVC and CVC pricing... Labor looked to Telstra's billing model to set nbn's. Telstra Wholesale DSL charges for the DSL port speed tier and then charges a per Mbit/sec fee at its point of interconnection. Telstra isn't alone in doing this, Optus does it too. In fact, this is the billing model adopted by all wholesale DSL service providers in Australia.

    Why should nbn be any different?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SpankedHam View Post
    Just in case people start to get the wrong idea regarding the separated AVC and CVC pricing... Labor looked to Telstra's billing model to set nbn's. Telstra Wholesale DSL charges for the DSL port speed tier and then charges a per Mbit/sec fee at its point of interconnection. Telstra isn't alone in doing this, Optus does it too. In fact, this is the billing model adopted by all wholesale DSL service providers in Australia.

    Why should nbn be any different?
    I think it is not they are doing it but the cost, then again i do not know, and it is not stated what Optarse and Telstra are charging to make a comparison
    Last edited by allover; 25-09-16 at 08:46 PM.
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    I think it is not they are doing it but the cost, then again i do not know, and it is not stated what Optarse and Telstra are charging to make a comparison
    Cost wise the pricing under Labor was set to allow RSPs to continue to offer ADSL like speeds (ie the 12/1 tier) with similar quotas to what they could offer via Telstra Wholesale ADSL. Previously ISPs could offer exceptionally large quotas safe in the knowledge that most people don't actually use it all, nor get anywhere near using it all for that matter. Which left enough money over to cover the costs of peak time capacity etc. The arrival of streaming video and people actually attempting to use all of the very large quotas to view it all at the same time has severely skewed costs. But for the arrival of nbn the exact same pricing complaints would be getting made about the various wholesale ADSL access providers... well except for the fact that most of them keep it all under their hat with NDAs with the ACCC needing to take a hammer and chisel to pry the lid off Telstra every now and then and take a peek inside when the complaining gets loud enough.

    ADSL or nbn, if people expect to have massive quotas (or even unlimited) and maintain good speed during 'peak' times, they are going to have to pay more for it, one way or another. No ifs. No buts. RSPs that turn around and offer massive quotas, quota free access to video on demand services etc know exactly what they are getting into. Crying poor when they blow their budget and send their share price plummeting is really nothing more than not taking responsibility for their own actions.
    Last edited by SpankedHam; 25-09-16 at 08:59 PM.

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  • #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    I think it is not they are doing it but the cost, then again i do not know, and it is not stated what Optarse and Telstra are charging to make a comparison
    Here is an article (one mans opinion) in answer to above
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    For NBN Co, access seekers and retail service providers to achieve reasonable revenue based on the existing AVC and CVC charges there is a need for consumers to move to higher speed tiers and usage.
    .... or could it be that the RSPs need to start charging appropriate rates for the 'unlimited' and very large quotas they are providing.

    Put it like this, would they be offering such amazing deals on ADSL and provide guaranteed congestion free 'full speed' access at 'peak times'. The answer is already known: They don't.

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  • #257
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    Serves these people right for living in a Labor electorate
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

  • #258
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    ^ Not surprising, does anyone expect anything else from the lib gubmint

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    The Lib's nbn, having come to the *shocking* conclusion (that was common knowledge, unless you were a nbn executive of course) that Optus' HFC network isn't good for anything, determined that pretty much the entire Optus HFC footprint will be converted to 'phone line based delivery. In tacit admission that FTTN isn't up the job, the services are going to be provided using FTTdp, ie chop off more off the copper wires. Now you'd think that this would be the ideal place to introduce more advanced technologies such as g.fast (as I imagined would happen when I posted about this earlier). Oh no. Most certainly not. This is the Liberal Party after all, that can't even recognise a fake email when it sees one.

    No, we won't be deploying g.fast for fttdp. It'll still be VDSL2 based, and rate limited to no more than 100/40 to boot.

    Just when it looked like things were finally looking up they pull total idiocy like this.
    Last edited by SpankedHam; 26-10-16 at 12:19 PM.

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  • #260
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    ^ But you can guarantee a few lib $$ backers will be making a quick buck out of this travesty

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