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Thread: Electricity Costs vs Diesel

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    Default Electricity Costs vs Diesel

    Just been watching Landline where they have said with the current Electricity costs to Farmers (Commercial Rate i would guess)
    It is 30% Cheaper to run Diesel powered pumps than Electric

    Interesting situation to be in
    They have been saying a lot of Farmers have been pulling out their old Electric Pumps and replacing them with Diesel Pumps

    Diesel Pumps are also ultimately portable too, with out need to for long runs of underground power.
    They will run when the grid is down and may be beneficial for Fire Fighting

    No wonder so many people that have brought weekend recreational properties (10 to 100acres) just run a Diesel Genset for power even before they move to Solar.
    I have one client that has been using an old Lister Diesel Generator for 80 years, he told me 2 years ago his running costs per hour, it was cheaper than getting a power bill.

    But what does all of this do for the Environment?
    Seems the Electricity Providers don't care.
    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!



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    I would REALLY like to see a portable generator that runs on a quarter of a litre of fuel per hour while continuously delivering 1kW+ power factor.
    That would equate roughly the cost of 32c per kWh electricity bill. ATM I pay 26c domestic, so more a tea cup of fuel, bit far fetched those claims.

    Diesel powered pumps may be somewhat more efficient on a larger scale.

    Solar powered pumps even more, well it is free.
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    You would have to see how much the farmers were paying for there fuel

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    They get about 38c per litre cheaper. Still their kW/h price would have to be 2-3 times higher than our domestic before it is cheaper to run diesel.

    Farmers might have to pay 100k or more just to get power installed if it is a bit remote, I understand the wish to be off grid, but if grid power is already available it would make no sense to charge them that much more.
    On a recreational property it might make sense to be off grid as the service availabilty cost(which could also be higher for farms) over the whole year would be higher than running the genny a few hours on selected weekends.
    The again the farmers might be talking about relativley small pumps running only a few hours too.
    Would like to see some facts and figures with reference.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-03-17 at 10:05 PM.
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    The old single cylinder diesel gensets that Lister produced early last century were very efficient. Friends used to have one to produce power on their farm (remember the old 32 volt "freelight" systems) It would only fire on about every third or fourth stroke, so would run for hours on a cup of diesel. Couple one of those to a more modern genset and it could, indeed be way cheaper than mains power.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    I have no doubt that there are old smaller diesels that may keep their flywheel spinning for an hour or two on a cup of fuel and even run a 60W globe but put a proper load on it and that is a very different story. Combustion piston engines are still an inefficient way to deliver electricity.

    My Honda EU30is with it's Eco-Throttle needs 13litres for 20hours @0.7kVA, that is $15.86 (ULP $1.22/l) to run a very weak 600W pool pump(don't forget the PF) less than a full day !!!

    Same pump running 20h on mains($0.26kW/h) = $3.12 ...and if you want to be nasty add the daily supply charge ($0,88) = $4 inc GST.

    No old myths here, just plain facts and figures.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 13-03-17 at 12:15 PM.
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    I agree with nomeat in calling shenanigans on this.

    They have been saying a lot of Farmers have been pulling out their old Electric Pumps and replacing them with Diesel Pumps
    Wouldnt you just install Solar instead of spending money on a diesel generator and the ongoing cost of fuel if that was the case ?

    Anyone running Diesel instead of Solar on a recreational property must have more money than brains.

    Power at say 30 cents a kw/h.....how much diesel would you get for 30 cents and would it run for an hour ? No. They would have to be on an absolutely horrendous tarrif for diesel to be the cheaper option.

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    Quote Originally Posted by admin View Post



    Wouldnt you just install Solar instead of spending money on a diesel generator and the ongoing cost of fuel if that was the case ?
    Not really admin, 1 pump might draw 4kw, just 1 pump!
    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!

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    Obviously fuel consumption also depends on the engine technology. Modern diesel engines are much more economical to run as well as they utilise much better exhaust filters etc.
    I took a small diesel genset made by Cummins (17 kW standby and 15 kW prime) as an example:
    Running at 1/4 of it's rating in Prime mode you can expect to use 0.91 L/hr of diesel.
    At full Prime power you will use 3.63 L/Hr
    Sure the above is true for ISO conditions and power factor of 0.8.

    What do farmers pay for diesel today? Well, I put diesel into my car from Costco, costing me around $1.15 per litre.
    That means if I run the set at 1/4 or almost 4 kW load it will cost me approximately $1/per hour.

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    20min in is the bit about electricity prices
    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!

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    Now it makes sense, if they wanted to go off-grid !
    Farmers are slogged by the electricity companies $155,000 per year daily service fee plus a "demand charge" 180,000 per year + actual usage bill.
    Thanks OB those were the facts and figures I was after, if they are really true.

    However on a recreational property I would rather be spending 4-5k on solar panels + maybe another 2 grand for the inverter, than 11k for a Cummins diesel to run a 4kW pump.
    and if it rains I don't need to pump water on the field
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 13-03-17 at 05:37 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post

    However on a recreational property I would rather be spending 4-5k on solar panels + maybe another 2 grand for the inverter, than 11k for a Cummins diesel to run a 4kW pump.
    and if it rains I don't need to pump water on the field
    No mate, they are not buying a Diesel Generator to make Electricity to power an Electric pump[
    They just buy a Diesel Pump
    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!

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    I'm just reading this for entertainment value.
    I'll assume that electricity costs $0.30/kWhr for this exercise. Mine is more like 28c at the moment. But for the exercise we'll make electricity more expensive.
    Now fuel is about $1.40/L around my way.

    I have a 2kW generator but I really have no idea how much fuel it uses per hour. I haven't run it for a while since I have about 200kWhr in battery storage.


    But if I assume 1 litre per hour, that's $1.40 or 4.66kWhr(ee) {equivalent electricity} I expect to get for my money to make it worth my while to go off grid.

    4.67kWhr x 3600 = 16.8MJ of energy. Petrol has about 34.35MJ/L (Diesel is about 36MJ/L) [Kerosene ~37.6MJ/L]

    So it is not impossible to get value for money out of a piston driven petrol engine. *Provided it is better than 50% efficient.

    Not knowing the efficiency of various engines, it's time for me to resort to the oracle known as google.
    1 - Petrol engines come in around 25% efficiency.
    2 - Diesel engines come in around 40% efficiency.
    3 - Gas turbines come in around 60% efficiency. Though it does depend on the type of turbine and it's use. For generating electricity 60% appears to be reasonable.

    I might think that your neighbours might get a bit upset about the jet engine running in your backyard at 10pm at night.

    ---

    Lets flip this over and look at it from the cost price of electricity vs the cost of petrol.
    These are the rough break even points.
    eg $0.95 = $0.40/kwhr

    Fuel vs Electricity
    $1.00 = $0.45/kWhr
    $1.10 = $0.49/kWhr
    $1.20 = $0.52/kWhr
    $1.30 = $0.55/kWhr
    $1.40 = $0.58/kWhr
    $1.50 = $0.62/kWhr
    $1.60 = $0.67/kWhr
    $1.70 = $0.70/kWhr
    $1.80 = $0.75/kWhr
    $1.90 = $0.79/kWhr
    $2.00 = $0.83/kWhr

    So unless fuel prices remain under $1 per litre, it really isn't a cheap way to produce electricity.
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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    I'm just reading this for entertainment value.
    I'll assume that electricity costs $0.30/kWhr for this exercise.

    So unless fuel prices remain under $1 per litre, it really isn't a cheap way to produce electricity.
    Commercial Electricity can be more, plus daily usage fee.
    And what is this nonsense about losses and conversion?
    They are buying Diesel Pumps, not Diesel Gensets to run Elec Pumps
    Last edited by ol' boy; 16-03-17 at 04:44 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    Commercial Electricity can be more, plus daily usage fee.
    And what is this nonsense about losses and conversion?
    They are buying Diesel Pumps, not Diesel Gensets to run Elec Pumps
    I think maybe your OP point about the pumps has been overlooked, as most people are thinking electricity, not water movement for irrigation, fire fighting & stock watering.
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    You know... there's this new invention that farmer's use to pump water, it's called a WINDMILL and it doesn't require electricity or combustible fuel! They've only been around for something like a thousand years so I'm not surprised nobody has heard of them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigfella237 View Post
    You know... there's this new invention that farmer's use to pump water, it's called a WINDMILL and it doesn't require electricity or combustible fuel! They've only been around for something like a thousand years so I'm not surprised nobody has heard of them?
    yes a wonderful invention, however irrigating paddocks with a windmill is not going to deliver the water pressure & flow rate farmers want, when they want it. Would like to see you trying to fight a fire with the water from a windmill.


    Last edited by Tiny; 16-03-17 at 06:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    They are buying Diesel Pumps, not Diesel Gensets to run Elec Pumps
    What we're not allowed to diverge on the topic and make the comparison to generating electricity in general?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    They get about 38c per litre cheaper. Still their kW/h price would have to be 2-3 times higher than our domestic before it is cheaper to run diesel.

    Farmers might have to pay 100k or more just to get power installed if it is a bit remote, I understand the wish to be off grid, but if grid power is already available it would make no sense to charge them that much more.
    On a recreational property it might make sense to be off grid as the service availabilty cost(which could also be higher for farms) over the whole year would be higher than running the genny a few hours on selected weekends.
    The again the farmers might be talking about relativley small pumps running only a few hours too.
    Would like to see some facts and figures with reference.
    Yes,I have a hobby farm/5 acres and my electricity bill a quarter is $ 176.00 and I only keep 1 fridge going which cost me $ 4.00 a quarter the rest are fees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    I'm just reading this for entertainment value.

    So unless fuel prices remain under $1 per litre, it really isn't a cheap way to produce electricity.
    Something to add in to your equations is that primary producers can claim a 39.5cents/litre Tax credit on Diesel & most other fuels.
    Cheers, Tiny
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