Reply With QuoteIn NSW where I used to practice he would almost certainly have gone to Silverwater for classification and then probably sent to one of the minimal security country jails once classified. In Victoria I'm not sure.
He would have to go Ararat wouldn't heOriginally Posted by DB44
Isn't that where they send Pedo's and Bad Cops, to keep them safe from inmates
If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!
In NSW where I used to practice he would almost certainly have gone to Silverwater for classification and then probably sent to one of the minimal security country jails once classified. In Victoria I'm not sure.
I do have an issue with historical sexual assault criminal matters where there is no notes/record/report/discussion made at the time, because of the very reasons you write above. There are few, if any, other historical criminal matters that make it to court solely on a witness testimony - even less where the victims/witness is a children.
The mind plays funny tricks on us. I cannot count how many times I thought something had happened whilst young, because my mind had become accustomed to a certain memory that I had created, only to have that memory proven wrong my an old family video, photo, document, etc. Not sexual related, but my mind believed I had injured myself in some way, or met with certain people, or traveled somewhere. This happens to us all, and not just when we are young.
In the specific instance of Pell, the offence happened decades ago, the victim was a child, spoke to no one about the incident for decades, and made no notes. There is no way his memory of the incident alone can be classified as reliable, yet in this instance, despite there being no other evidence, Pell was convicted.
I’m certainly not saying Pell did not commit these crimes, but simply discussing the issues of relying solely on a distant memory of an incident in a criminal trial.
allover (27-02-19),DB44 (27-02-19),enf (27-02-19),OSIRUS (27-02-19),VroomVroom (27-02-19)
Yep
There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"
You would never forget if someone has put their musky cock in your mouth or worse
You certainly don't document it
And there is no chance you are going to tell anyone until much much later in life!... if at all.
Especially in that era!
I agree, i could swear i had never been to Port Douglas before when i drove there as a 21 year old
Only to find a family photo of me years later at the Port Douglas lookout when i was 2 years old.
That is wildly different.
These Pedos walk amongst us every day, posing as normal (well, mostly normal) people, with a job etc
Some go on to continue offending, some get into grooming children from schools, some it was possibly just a phase in early adulthood and they moved on
But for the victim, i seriously doubt they ever forget. And that image would remain sharp in the mind.
Sure, they might move on and have a normal life with the same amount of mental issues we all suffer
But you would never forget the moment a Man took his junk out of his pants and made you suck it
Some sympathy for the victim might be nice
I understand the point you are making, re historical and children
But what are they meant to do?
I too am amazed they have arrived at a conviction, when you stop to realise the whom they have taken on and their position of influence and power.
It is akin to taking down a Police Commissioner or General in the army (never gonna happen)
It is hard enough getting a sexual predator brought to justice when its just between 2 nobodies
Last edited by ol' boy; 27-02-19 at 08:08 AM.
If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!
Uncle Fester (27-02-19)
I do wonder at the conviction, given the comments above, and the fact that he did voluntarily return to Australia to "face the music". He could have stayed in Rome and there was nothing the Aust Govt could do about it. Unfortunately, Churches, Schools, Sporting clubs, Creches, in fact, anywhere you have a good chance of meeting kids as part of your "normal" routine, are an attraction to kiddie fiddlers. It is the likes of those that give any organisation a bad name. I do understand the suppression order over Pell until now, because of other charges that had been laid. Sadly, his chance of an unbiased trail were almost zero. He is going to have to answer to the prison system who may not be as forgiving as his superiors. If h is guilty, he deserves what he gets, if not, however..............
edit: In this age many organisations that are directly related to kids require background checks, which might filter some out. Churches, sadly, may not fall into that category, in that children are not generally the intended targets of evangelisation.
Last edited by lsemmens; 27-02-19 at 08:48 AM.
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
DB44 (27-02-19)
Vic police have the green light to charge george pell with sexual abuse
As an adult you understand those concepts. As a child you do not. The issue being that what a child constructs in their mind as having happened, for whatever reason, cannot be relied upon as fact.
When I was about 12 and had just starting secondary school, I vividly remember being on a tree tyre swing, that I was told I wasn’t allowed to be on, during a family vacation. The branch broke, I come off and broke my right arm. I remember the pain, my parents rushing to help, the scene itself, treatment in hospital then my arm being in a sling for some time after.
The problem is - it never happened. I did fall off a tree swing after i slipped, and I grazed my arm, and I was yelled at by my parents for doing something they told me not to do. But it was nothing more serious than that. No broken bone, no real pain, no hospital, no sling.
My mind constructed the whole story around what happened, probably because I was in trouble when it happened. I had been telling friends the story of how I broke my arm for decades. I even had it recorded with my GP that I had broken my right arm when younger. It was only when I brought it up with family about 5 years back, and they were able to show me photos of the vacation, that they proved my memory was wrong, even through I would have sworn on oath that it happened.
I’m certainly not intending to be unsympathetic to the victims - and if it comes across that way then I want to be clear that is not my intention.
By all means they should come forward and tell their stories.
But I do worry when the uncorroborated version of a child from 30 years ago is the sole means of a person being convicted.
Last edited by peteramjet; 27-02-19 at 09:50 AM.
I don't buy that possibility in this case or any sexual case where an impressionable boy as been taken advantage of by an elder (or girl)
It is horrific and scary and extremely vivid.
You know it happened, when its happening, the next day, the day after, the year after, the decade after when you have to interact with the person who did it.
You never forget, ever!
I have no idea how your mind took you to hospital, when you never went.
But i'll bet you remember correctly if were coerced to take another mans cock in your mouth.
Yep, i get what you're saying, he could be lying, but i seriously doubt it would be an incorrect memory
And to take on such an almost impossible public figure, the odds of the case and damage to yourself.... why would he do it?
In addition to this, i've heard personal accounts from a Ballarat person that went to school under his religious leadership, he mentioned it years ago.
So i dare say there are multiple instances's, this is but one we are hearing about today.
Last edited by ol' boy; 27-02-19 at 10:47 AM.
If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!
VroomVroom (28-02-19)
I would say Pell could get off in a appeal because it is very rare to have a first trial with a hung jury on a Child Sex Case because of the high success rate and it true that the DPP will find a way to Re run the case if you were found not guilty and they will select a jury that suits them until they get the jury needed to get a guilty verdict
As I have said before 95% of the population does not know what goes on in these cases and you would only know if you work for while a long while with a group of solicitors doing their dirty work but I remember one case that a Video Man had to Video a under age kid under 16 hanging around toilets in a Shopping centers (going from one toilet to another to another toilets) picking up men and then they drive off in a car only for the child the Same child 8 years later put a Complain in that THIS MAN Abused me and when the man was charged the DPP found a way to stop showing that this young boy was nothing but a prostitute to the Jury but yet on his police Video recording evidence played in court the child told the police (Jury Viewing) that he knew nothing about sex until that man done thing to me. Also in the same case the Police asked the Child to HAND write to say what happened and sign it and the police asked his Mother (Father shot through years Ago) to do the same so what happened the Child did not do this in his own hand writing but he did it on the Computer and the same for the his mother and both had the same spelling mistakes and both had the same bad grammar but yet he was found guilty (jury had to be blind or zealots) and after years in jail eventually after a supreme court appeal he got off after other evidence got out that this child at the time did not have sex with this man this man only force him to come home as he was smoking at the shopping center and he hated the man .
You will find a HIGH percentage of these cases the Child has no Fathers and live with his mother ONLY and most of the time the Child sues for compensation so since this is the case who is pulling the strings.
A lot of people that have worked for the Solicitors or Private investigators and doing the above and when you get a job to investigates jobs like the above you get a sick feeling their gut and you cannot wait until you find another job because I did.
Hey?
If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!
Yes Hey with $$$$$ You just imagine if you are really 100% innocent of these charges and you have been set up for the one and only scam which is Victim Compensation. I can talk about 50 cases like these type of cases in 5 1/2 years of working and I will need a secretary just for typing because I still remember most of them and all were different but had the same end "Victim Compensation".
Other case like Child Killers that were found guilty and spend 12 years in Jail only to find out that the man accuse was innocent and still now the DPP is stopping his name to be cleared so he can sue the Government for WRONGFUL CONVICTION.
Anyhow Back on Pell. Me think that he will get off in a appeal. The DDP still wins, Pell get off, The Victim gets basic compo, everyone gets something.
Once again keep away with anything that is under 18 year old.
Last edited by Mr 672A; 27-02-19 at 12:56 PM.
Howard is in the news this afternoon at least on nine for writing Pell a character reference and Abbott and Howard are both good judges of character aren't they?
I certainly understand where you are coming from. But the mind is a very strange thing indeed. Eye witness testimony, for instance, is notoriously unreliable. The innocence project in the US using DNA testing has freed many people who were wrongly convicted on the basis of eye witness testimony. Unfortunately people including children do bring false accusations, either maliciously or because they genuinely believe them to be true. One only needs to look at the recent Kavanaugh fiasco in the United States and the allegations against him by Professor Ford. I am not saying that Professor Ford made up the allegations. Simply that there was no corroboration for them whatsoever. And worse still, the people she named as corroborating witnesses remembered no such events as she described. Yet to see her testify leaves little doubt that something happened to her and she genuinely believes that she is telling the truth. The modern "recovered memory" cases also serve as examples where people genuinely believe that a thing happened to them that could not have.
This is a terrible example of a minor deliberately lying resulting in a 50 year jail sentence for her father:
Wikipedia has a couple of articles which are also quite relevant:
To quote from the first article:
I am most certainly not saying that Pell is innocent or that his accuser is lying or even mistaken, though as I said earlier I would not be at all surprised if his conviction is overturned on Appeal. This of course is based only on media reports which in my own experience are often woeful and inaccurate in relation to legal matters. Based on what I have read, I really don't know if Pell is guilty. This jury convicted him and clearly had no reasonable doubt. Having heard all the evidence, they are in a much better position to judge than I am. However, the same could be said of the previous jury.Human memory is created and highly suggestible, and can create a wide variety of innocuous, embarrassing, and frightening memories through different techniques—including guided imagery, hypnosis, and suggestion by others. Though not all individuals exposed to these techniques develop memories, experiments suggest a significant number of people do, and will actively defend the existence of the events, even if told they were false and deliberately implanted.
Cases such as this are very difficult ones and I for one certainly don't have the answers.
I've also written character references for guilty people. Such references relate to my understanding of their character, not their guilt or innocence.
When the Jury is in doubt the Verdict should be NOT GUILTY
But with Child Sex Case when the Jury is in doubt its Guilty!
This is well known on the legal circus regarding Child Sex Cases that Its better to convict a innocent person than let a guilty person to escape punishment
Me too. On several occasions, once for the supreme court.
F*ck pheggie, you are sometimes a sad and tragic case, you really are.
Who were the Labor leaders who gave references for Man Haron Monis? You know him, he liked to frequent the Lindt Cafe.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
DB44 (27-02-19)
I see Pell isn't bothering with a Bail Application now
If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!
Thanks for that. I've just caught up on the news. I'm not sure what the situation is on bail in Victoria. In New South Wales, whilst it did happen, it is not common for someone convicted of an indictable offence such as this to be given bail pending determination of an appeal. Pell is now a convicted felon and not presumed to be innocent. There are many reasons why Lawyers may advise not to proceed with a bail application at this time. Laws differ from state to state. It does seem to be likely that they formed the opinion he would not get bail today. It's possible though unlikely that his lawyers expected the Judge to sentence him today following the hearing. Their statement does imply that there is some advantage in Victoria in delaying the bail application until after his sentencing. In New South Wales legislation some years ago placed severe limitations on making multiple bail applications. This made it important to get it right the first time, and resulted in a lot more short prison stays whilst lawyers thoroughly prepared such applications. Once again I'm not sure of the law in Victoria, or for that matter even the current state of the law in New South Wales.
I can clearly remember when 10 the pedo who asked my friend and i to suck his cock at the public toilets at Moorabbin airport the day we cycled to watch the planes take off and land. Also remember the look on the old mans face when i told him as he raced out the door to the friends to talk to his father, being present at the cop shop and the cop saying he knew the offender and that he and a few fellow cops would take care of the situation. The cop was also a father of boys whom i later was a member of the Surf Club . I can vividly remember the facts even now
There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"
william10 (28-02-19)
Why With that High flyer Barrister at the helm it would cost about $140,000. There Greedy
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