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Thread: Armagedon or profit?

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    Senior Member MrRadio's Avatar
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    Default Armagedon or profit?

    For years we have seen the signs at petrol stations warning us of the dangers of using radio transmitters. The operators were always quick to tell us that it was against the "law" to use a phone there and that armagedon would ensue if we did. I have even had a console operator refuse to authorise the pump because MrsRadio was on the phone inside the car and I received a tounge lashing about the fact she was breaking the "law".
    It seems all that has changed now with BP's introduction of an app to pay for your petrol from the car. What about armagedon? What about that "law" they always espoused? What about the phyics of spark, fuel and O2? Seems to me that it's all Ok as long as BP can have a better, quicker way to grab your money. I'm confused.
    Next they will tell us that phones used in a Hospital will stop pacemakers and cause untold damage to other medical equipment but the plethora of antennas (including phone antennas) usually found on the roof of hospitals are quite ok. The difference there? No not physics but rent.



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    It all stemmed from a number of unexplained, seemingly spontaneous, fuel fires at service stations and wireless transmitting devices were very strong suspects as the cause of it hence laws/rules were implemented in the interests of public safety. Those rules have never been relaxed but some study of security videos that captured these spontaneous fires revealed that the real culprit was static electricity discharges when people got into, and out of, the car while refuelling was in progress IE cloud of highly flammable vapour + spark = bang and flames. It was more likely to happen when the fuel nozzle was the 'latching' type that could be left filling (with auto stop) while the driver went rummaging in the car for wallet/phone etc. I haven't seen such a nozzle for a long time now, they all have to be held throughout the process presumably as a safety measure to reduce the possibility of the operator accumulating a static charge in relation to the car body while fuel was flowing.

    It's never been conclusively proven that a small transmitter could not produce such a spark so the rules will stay. It's all about public liability and the cost of insuring against it.
    Last edited by Skepticist; 26-12-17 at 10:16 AM.

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    This is why today when you buy almost anything it comes with a sheet containing more instructions of 'What Not to Do' rather than on how to use it.
    As we have seen from posting in articles for recipients of the Darwin Award and other similar reports there are 'Those among Us' who seem to have an innate ability to do the most incredibly stupid things and if not that, they see a way of suing someone for any perceived infractions.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    Where I work we have a store room with around 11,000 litres of ethanol in it, I don't take my phone in there!

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    All fuel bowsers in Australia have vapor recovery systems these days that should reduce the risk of an explosive mix of fuel and oxygen.
    The fuel nozzle should be earthed and the tyres in your car these days are slightly conductive.

    I think BP has finally weighed the risk and also discovered that phone antennas (that are internal these days) do not cause sparks, but their employees may not have been made aware of that yet.
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    Have you been 'zapped' either getting in or out of car?
    Static electricity caused by the clothes your wearing along with the humidity can produce quite a healthy spark.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    Humidity in the air is enough to discharge or avoid charge, you probably meant DRY air.

    Getting in and out of the car, not for many years. In the 1980's I think I can still remember.
    However from walking around in my sneakers and then coming back to the 'earthed' car I might still get a slight tingle on a dry winter's day.
    A lot worse are the shopping trollys in Aldi. They should lightly earth the wheels on them like our tyres. When I say lightly earthed I mean a few mega ohm, so the discharge is gradual.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 26-12-17 at 05:32 PM.
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    No, it's never been against the law. There are a lot of things that are not against the law.

    The history of this is actually quite simple.
    The original cause was static electricity. If you're the owner of a service station, then the static might be considered your fault, but if you an shift the blame, then any doubt that it was the customer's mobile phone reduces your liability with doubt. If you're an OH&S lawyer, you can charge you clients for legal advice which doesn't really help them and makes the problem worse through ignorance of the real cause. Making people think mobile phones are the cause when lack static awareness is the real issue.

    I have some good stories about this issue. I was filling up diesel and I was talking on the mobile phone with my earphones. The unthinking Indian behind the counter shut down the pump following his flowchart.
    Normally I just hang up the pump and go to another station. With $1.50 on the pump they freak out if it is less than $2.
    I ask the guy if I had upset the Indian god Ohas?
    "There is no god Ohas!"
    "Sure there is, OH&S is very big in India!"
    "Oh, you funny man!"
    "I might be funny, but you're the one who will get in trouble."
    "how is that?"

    Well this phone in my pocket is a 4G phone. It transmits all the time, even when I'm not making calls. So how are you going to know?
    The truth is that it is only 10mW and it will never cause a problem, you're just pretending to care but you can't see real danger.
    "Oh?"
    "See that big (HF) antenna on the car, it is 10000 times more powerful than a telephone and it is connect to a computer which makes it transmit any time. If that transmits now... KABOOM! Then you are in big trouble because you made me come in here while a ticking time bomb is sitting out there and you didn't notice, that is YOUR fault!
    The look of terror on his face made it well worth the effort.

    ---

    About a year ago I was filling up the diesel at another station (not too far from the one above). I was talking to my boss on the phone. When I'd finished filling up (my boss hung up) and I was walking indside to pay and I was confronted by a guy who 'wanted to ask me a few questions'.
    Sure, I'm always happy to answer customer questions, but this guy was conducting an OH&S witch hunt. I love witch hunts, I'm good at them.
    So this guy asked:
    "Why were you talking on the phone while filling up?"
    "Because the car needed fuel?"
    "Oh you think you're funny?"
    "No, but clearly you do!"
    "Did you see the (safety) sign over there?"
    "Yeah, I think the use of the colour red makes for good contrast against the
    white background."
    "So you chose to ignore it?"
    "Yep."
    "So you choose to break the law?"
    "No, you clearly don't know the law! That sign is an advisory sign, it has no legal standing. It is not based on any law!"
    "Do you think you know better than the sign?"
    "Yes, I do. I spent 4 years at university doing electronic and radio engineering degree, so yes I do know a LOT better than that sign. I'm guessing you think that you have a legal degree or some kind of cert 2 oh&s training which makes you think you know better than the science of radio physics?"

    "You've got a smart mouth on you buddy!"
    "Is that what you think because you lost an argument against somebody you were trying to bully, or because more thought is put into what I say than you can muster with all of your grey matter?"
    "I'm going to lodge an official compliant with your employer! What's your name?"
    "Oh excellent! Make sure you spell my name correctly, 'Capital T rash' and this is the section I work for. "

    The complaint never came down the food chain. I think he had a moment of clarity where he realised, if you poke the hornets nest and get stung, coming back for a second go is going to bring you trouble much worse than you didn't expect the first time.

    Of course 5 minutes after the debate, I went off to gather intelligence on the guy from everybody in town who knew him. He's a special kind of arsehole and a real bully in his workplace and outside of it. The people I spoke to were delighted that he got a serving.


    ----

    Another good example of something that is not law is disabled parking spaces. If they are on the street or gazetted and marked as such, then sure, you need a disability sticker to park there. But if your local shopping center just decides to paint a disabled space on the ground, the means jack shit in legal terms.
    Now most of us are not arseholes and understand the purpose for disabled parking spaces.

    So when I had a broken arm and I needed to legitimately use one to push a shopping trolley with one hand (yeah, that shit isn't fun) I decided to park in one of their many free disabled spaces close to the shop.
    The security nazis decided to take the law into their own hands. They vandalised my car. They stuck one of those irritating stickers on my car window.

    I came back to the car with my shopping and unloaded. I wasn't impressed. So I went up to center management and explained the law to them.
    Their parking rules had no legal standing, but vandalism IS a crime. The cast on my arm was a pretty good indication that I had a valid reason for using the space.
    I told them if they didn't have somebody remove the sticker from my car then I would call the police and report the vandalism and ask that the person responsible be charged. They thought I was bluffing and told me to go away.
    "No probs, the first call is to the police, the second is A current affair. This will make a really good quick and nasty news item for them."
    I rang the local police while I stood at their front desk and said,"I'd like to report somebody who has vandalised my car at xxx shopping center."
    "Oh yes, I have reported it to center management, I'm standing in their office. But I believe it might have been one of their staff and they are covering for them."
    "Yes, hang on, I'll let you speak to their secretary!" I handed the phone to her....
    Her tone of voice changed VERY quickly: "Oh.... sorry, I think we can resolve this problem without the need for the police."

    They sent the idiot who did it to remove it. And didn't he cop a serving from me as he was removing it.
    "Ah you poor bastard. Shame they didn't make the arsehole who put this sticker on remove it so they can understand what a cvnt they have been."
    I knew damn well it was him, so making him eat his own shit was a lot of fun.
    Last edited by trash; 26-12-17 at 06:23 PM.
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    Does it not follow that if a law still exists prohibiting the use of transmitters in the vicininty of petrol bowsers then BP by producing and distributing the app are enciting thousands, if not millions of people to break that law and exposing BP to a massive class action from people placed in danger by their actions. (Put simply)
    Last edited by MrRadio; 26-12-17 at 06:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MrRadio View Post
    Does it not follow that if a law still exists prohibiting the use of transmitters in the vicininty of petrol bowsers then BP by producing and distributing the app are enciting thousands, if not millions of people to break that law and exposing BP to a massive class action from people placed in danger by their actions. (Put simply)
    What law about transmitters??
    How many vehicles have active CB radios on board??
    I think you're mistaken there.

    BTW; Myth Busters did a whole program on this subject & they couldn't trigger an explosion in a phone booth full of fuel vapour, no matter what they had the mobile phone, they put inside, do.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Senior Member MrRadio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    What law about transmitters??
    How many vehicles have active CB radios on board??
    I think you're mistaken there.

    BTW; Myth Busters did a whole program on this subject & they couldn't trigger an explosion in a phone booth full of fuel vapour, no matter what they had the mobile phone, they put inside, do.
    MY point exactly, for years the operators hid behind a so called law to stop you using a phone. I have seen signs on bowsers prohibiting radio transmitters and always joked "don't lock your car" but is it law? Or isn't it law?

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    And then there are phones that catch fire all by themselves - the airlines deal with them on an all to regular basis.
    Last edited by mi_tasol; 27-12-17 at 06:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi_tasol View Post
    And then there are phones that catch fire all by themselves - the airlines deal with them on an all to regular basis.
    & then there are cars that catch fire all by themselves, best to keep them away from service stations.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    & then there are cars that catch fire all by themselves, best to keep them away from service stations.
    hey . leave Ford Rangers out of this!! lol

    I used to laugh at those signs advising against the use of mobile phones at service stations - from the late 90's onwards most cars had mechanical relays controlling central locking mechanisms , which generate a tiny spark as the contacts open. not to mention all the heater motors , alarm systems and other spark generating devices in cars.

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    I never thought that a Mobile phone is transmitting unless you were making a call but I guess it does to maintain a connection to the nearest tower.
    As for CB's and other Two way radio's, unless they have some sort of 'here I am' transmitting devise, the Tx doesnt operate until you push the PTT button so being turned on doesnt mean a thing.

    Parking areas are weird in relation to the powers of the Police to apply the Traffic act.
    Some time a compliant was made to the local police over a vehicle matter and the caller was told that it was basically 'Private property' and they had no authority.
    Then at other times I have heard they have done so.
    Just recently my car broke down as I was parking in a disabled zone ( I have a sticker) and my Son took my wife and I home in his car and was coming back to replace the alternator (caught fire) and drive my car home WITHOUT me being there.
    I spoke to the Police who were on foot patrol in the shopping centre at the time and I got the impression that they did have authority to apply the Traffic act in the parking areas.
    Another story I heard was that the area owners could give the Police permission to patrol it.
    A very grey area indeed.
    Something even odder was the instruction that before the Police could enter Railway Land for official duty, they had to gain permission from the Station Master.

    I am sorry Trash was given such a hard time and no one had the right to vandalize his vehicle but unless there was an approved sticker in the window, how would anyone know he had a valid reason to use the space?
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    Where I live the police have zilch to do with parking offences. That is the duty of the council rangers unless the vehicle is impeding traffic, then there will be not only the police involved but very expensive towing services.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post
    I am sorry Trash was given such a hard time and no one had the right to vandalize his vehicle but unless there was an approved sticker in the window, how would anyone know he had a valid reason to use the space?
    I'm just the extreme machiavellian. The point is that the shopping center broke the law, not me. But they make everybody think the reverse.
    I called them to account and they got their arse handed to them.
    I did nothing wrong. They did wrong. I'm the victim here. Even if there was nothing wrong with me, I would still no be doing anything wrong.
    (Like shagging your cousin - It might be immoral, but not illegal).
    How could they know without a sticker? Ignorance of the law is no excuse. That's what I'd be told if I didn't know the parking was gazetted.
    I do admit, I did feel obscenely smug because I would not have done it if my arm wasn't clearly broken. I would like to think I didn't need to park in the spot, but reality is I did and would not have been able to safely push the trolley in the car park.


    Police can issue a fine, but only within the law. So private property is not covered by default, but it can be included.
    A good example is North Parramatta Maccas. Private property and people were seriously abusing the free parking. Maccas couldn't do a lot about it.
    But they spoke to the council who gazzetted the parking spaces and put up council parking signs and you can be fined for exceeding the time limit.
    It's a real fine.

    But we've been dealing with unlawful arseholes for a long time. It just pays to know the law and be prepared to stick it to people breaking the law, even if that is the police. If the police had come and fined me for that disabled space, I would have taken it to court with a copy of the law in my hand and other evidence and walked out only having wasted my time. I would then follow up with punishment for the people who wasted my time. (That's important and fun).

    Some other examples of people breaking the law...
    Wheel clamping. The law didn't cover this act originally, but then somebody read the law, applied it and the government made it clear to the clampers that what they were doing was illegal. They kept clamping cars and ignored the "advice". The NSW government introduced specific legislation to put a clear end to it eventually. But before they did, my friends and I made them the victims. The local shopping center, they would clamp cars for trivial reasons and extort the owners for $300 to remove the clamp.
    We would park in places where we knew they would clamp the car, but I could never get them to do it with my car.
    Then I was with a friend in his car. We parked in the 'special' spot and when we came back, there was the clamp.
    We quickly put our evil plan into motion. We had the AGM! (Angle Grinder Man). A friend's dad with a petrol angle grinder. He had been itching to cut a boot!
    We called him, but he was on a job and would be there in about 40 minutes. "He was on his way."

    We hung around the car waiting for him when all of a sudden this ordinary guy walked past on the way to his car.
    He paused and said, "Oh that sucks! Have you called the center management to complain?"
    "Nar, no need, we're just going to cut the fvcker off. They're illegal!"

    All of a sudden the guy walked in unlocked the boot and quickly made his escape.
    "Nooo! Come back, we want to cut your clamp into confetti you fvker !!!"

    ----

    The same center also resorts to the "fake parking fine". I think we've mentioned these on the forum before.
    It's not illegal for them to "issue their own fine", but they have no way to enforce it. Instead they rely on tricking you.
    They legally cannot get your details, that would be a breach of privacy and open up a nasty can of worms.
    So they put a fine on you car with details on "how to dispute the fine."
    <i>Tell us your details, where your car was parked and why you believe the fine should be dismissed.</i>
    You're handing a confession of your act with all of your personal details to them and they can then pursue you in a civil claim.

    I used to just throw the fine away. But I stepped upto the plate and decided to make sure their evidence was so badly corrupted that if they ever go into a court, a magistrate would laugh his arse off.
    I now always lodge a complaint, I give them details which are wrong.
    "You have issued a fine for a car that isn't even my car. My rego is 123FUK not 123FVK. I was parked (somewhere close) but an hour later. I look forward to your response, my mail address is 69 buttfooker place, Penriff. Thank you Joseph Bloggs."

    Oh you thought I do this once? Hell no, I do this for months afterwards. I used to send them random complaints for xmas and end of financial year.
    I even got creative with some of my stories. Like "I'm nun and this is a convent shared car. It was blessed by the pope in 1998."

    I haven't had one of these fake fines since I moved out of Sydney. I feel the need to try some new ideas on them.

    I have been known to hurt real parking cops from time to time, but generally their lives are so pathetic and miserable that I leave them alone.
    Except Liverpool council. I saw on the news they were close to catching a guy who burned down the council offices. They think it was because of a parking fine.
    The mayor was on TV saying how disproportional this act was. I found myself shouting Orwellian style at the TV ..."No you fvcktard, how big a bunch of arseholes do you have to be for somebody to step UP to that level of hatred?"

    A friend borrowed my car and got a fine in Liverpool. I went after the arseholes for it. First stop - read the law. Damn, they're right. They win.

    I wanted to take it to court expecting to lose, (would have cost me $35 - well worth the entertainment) but my friend just wanted to pay the fine.
    I wanted to know how a judge would react to a fine being issued because the car had two differentials instead of one.
    I'm bitter that I never got the chance If I'd known the council chambers were on fire, I would have turned up with marshmellows.
    Last edited by trash; 27-12-17 at 10:31 PM.
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    Every internal combustion engine produces a "spark" otherwise the fuel in the process would not ignite. Petroleum based engines are the worst offenders given that an external device, called a coil and distribution system, must be used to ignite said fuel. How many times have you lifted the bonnet (especially on older cars) on a vehicle with a poorly maintained electrical system and spent an evening watching the "spitzen sparkzen"?

    Mobile phones are the least of you worries.

    Another one that gets me are the "privacy" laws, which no one seems to have ever read.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Ha, it is true that very few people have read them. I will confess that I have not read them all.
    But in case you are wondering if they exist, I can assure you they do.

    I have only read the sections of various acts, when and if I think they are relevant to my shit stirring.
    I don't spend my nights reading legal text for fun. That's reserved for technical white papers and quantum physics texts.

    The trick isn't how to use privacy laws, it's how can you misuse them.
    If the faux parking cops can get your personal details, then I want to get your personal details too using the same information.
    Temple of Satan uses the same "Me too" approach when dealing with stupid religious (usually christian) laws or acts.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    One part of Trash's previous post mentions a Council gazetting land and posting signs making parking there illegal but to do so, that area had to be Council land otherwise they would not have the authority to do.

    Earlier this Year Orange Council bought and fitted out ($80,000?) a vehicle with a 'Number Plate Recognition system' and it was to patrol the streets and Parking areas around town.
    I gather the vehicle also was used in Bathurst and I fully expected it to appear in my town but it seems to have disappeared.
    There was talk that were disputes from those shown to be illegally parked, were somewhere else at the time.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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