Ask an American 'Gun Nut' anything, aka does the rest of the world understand us?

[technoweenie]

CDC estimates, on the low range, that 500k lives a year are saved by firearm usage.... self defense... even when shots needn't be fired. A lot of the time, the mere presence of a weapon is enough for the two legged animals to skadoodle.

[enf]

Look at what's happening in South Africa.. The gov't is stealing land from white farmers, farmers are being attacked and killed. Out of control gov't exists in modern times. This isn't a 50 or 100 or 200 yrs ago 'thing'....

You're comparing an addled racist/reverse racist/mob rule basket case like South Africa to the US? Interesting......ludicrous, but interesting.

Rationalisation at it's desperate best. No gun will save you from a starving and enraged mob.

[CONAXLE]

They can make America Great again,simply give the high powered guns to mentally sick people and send them to Middle East.Kill 2 birds in one stone. No need to look after the mentally sick and no troubles of mass shootings.. Just a thought..

[Thala Dan]

technoweenie,

In your original post you asked “Please keep the thread reasonable…..”.

Well, you almost got your wish, with a few notable exceptions.

You have articulated your position and arguments honestly and well.

One does not have to agree with everything you say, but you have at least advanced your arguments unemotionally, and responded calmly to those who disagreed.

You were asked “….so what are you hoping to achieve with this discussion?”

I would have thought that the answer to that question was as simple as it is obvious…….a discussion.

Something which, I thought was the very essence and purpose of this forum.

Whilst I hold grave fears for the future of American society as it is today (for more reasons than those being discussed here), I also find the idea prevailing in this part of the world that calm, peace, and regional friendliness are a permanent fixture and that we, the people, need only go about our daily lives watched over by a just, caring, compassionate and benign governing structure to be an unrealistic expectation, bordering on dangerous apathy.

History is littered with the corpses of those who so believed.

In our case, much of this attitude has developed as a result of our isolation and insulation from many of the major events throughout history which have tended to shape cultures in the Northern Hemisphere.

There can be some fairly compelling arguments made in favour of an armed population….some would argue that it is not necessary to be armed during good times….but, of course, when (not if) the bad times come, it’s too damn late.

As is so often the case, Americans have taken what was a reasonable and rational concept and bastardised it to the point where its creators would no longer recognise it.

You now have an omelette that cannot be unscrambled….you will just have to regulate and control as best you can.

Interestingly, you’re not alone in having to work through this issue:

Swiss tell EU: Hands off veterans' assault rifles



In the final analysis though, I think I’d go along with Thomas Jefferson and Huey Newton:

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

Thomas Jefferson


Any unarmed people are slaves, or are subject to slavery at any given moment.

Huey Newton

[CONAXLE]

[Thala Dan]

The Mujihadeen only survived by massive USA backing. VC only survived by massive Chinese and Russian backing. Which country will back your so called unbeatable Militia?

Whichever country finds it profitable to do so

[enf]

technoweenie,

In your original post you asked “Please keep the thread reasonable…..”.

Well, you almost got your wish, with a few notable exceptions.

You have articulated your position and arguments honestly and well.

One does not have to agree with everything you say, but you have at least advanced your arguments unemotionally, and responded calmly to those who disagreed.

You were asked “….so what are you hoping to achieve with this discussion?”

I would have thought that the answer to that question was as simple as it is obvious…….a discussion.

Something which, I thought was the very essence and purpose of this forum.

Whilst I hold grave fears for the future of American society as it is today (for more reasons than those being discussed here), I also find the idea prevailing in this part of the world that calm, peace, and regional friendliness are a permanent fixture and that we, the people, need only go about our daily lives watched over by a just, caring, compassionate and benign governing structure.

History is littered with the corpses of those who so believed.

In our case, much of this attitude has developed as a result of our isolation and insulation from many of the major events throughout history which have tended to shape cultures in the Northern Hemisphere.

There can be some fairly compelling arguments made in favour of an armed population….some would argue that it is not necessary to be armed during good times….but, of course, when (not if) the bad times come, it’s too damn late.

As is so often the case, Americans have taken what was a reasonable and rational concept and bastardised it to the point where its creators would no longer recognise it.

You now have an omelette that cannot be unscrambled….you will just have to regulate and control as best you can.

Interestingly, you’re not alone in having to work through this issue:

Swiss tell EU: Hands off veterans' assault rifles



In the final analysis though, I think I’d go along with Thomas Jefferson and Huey Newton:

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.

Thomas Jefferson


Any unarmed people are slaves, or are subject to slavery at any given moment.

Huey Newton

Gdday TD...

Reasonably and well argued but flawed I feel.

Such sentiments as those of Thomas Jefferson were expressed at a time when the populace at large were unable to organise or gather in protest easily or even at all. These days that can be achieved at the press of the send key.

If one has such little faith in ones own country as a whole, then why stay? I'm not anti gun at all, just anti what is happening in the US. At the same time it's blindingly obvious, at least it seems to me, that "gun control" is an outdated and hopeless concept as far as the US is concerned. Children executed in schools is obviously one price that a considerable slice of the population , and therefore the vote seeking politician, is prepared to pay.

I hope it's worth it, although as we read about tomorrows massacre most in this land will just raise their eyes to the sky and sigh, and move on with a smidgen less concern each time.

I fully admit that I have no solution in mind either, only the opinion that the current situation just breeds continuous, sustained and easily fanned paranoia in a citizenry armed with assault weapons.

[allover]

Just before Thala Dam posted, i remember when living in a private Swiss Chalet above the snow line opening a cupboard to see a Semi Automatic. It appears every man from 20-40 was a soldier and bared arms, hence the farmers son's gun. But I have only heard of one massacre in 40 years. Reason to me appears to be one colour, one people, one political system, one purpose. Does not say much for the States, but then again ain't too many Swiss
Was watch a show about Boadicea, who revolted and fought the Romans 2000 years ago, reason was the Romans were trying to de arm them to get total control, The Nazis de armed Norway by going to the official records, finding who had guns, knocking on their doors and confiscating said guns%^!!
Any official records in the States??????

[trash]

Ask an American 'Gun Nut' anything, aka does the rest of the world understand us?

Hahaha.... you're just teasing me. I already know the answers to my questions... but I thought it would be fun to have you answer them anyway.


Question 1: How much do you trust your government?
Question 2: How much does everybody else trust your government?
Question 3a: If a referendum was held tomorrow on changing the second amendment, How would they reword or write a new amendment?
Question 3b: Do you think it would be successful and if so or not, by what margins?

The problem I have is that the 2nd amendment is there for a reason and that trying to impose .. lets call it Australian values, on an American population is completely why the amendment was created.
I see no reason to change it and I'm guessing Americans see it exactly the same way. There is no point in punishing the entire population for the actions of minorities or one person.


What is interesting is comparing Canada to the USA.




Australian gun laws are done state by state so there is a lot of inconsistency here.
In NSW you cannot own a gun without a licence. Though I think you can own an antique muzzle loader, you won't be able to buy black powder without a licence.
You also cannot own cross bows or a range of other nasty toys.

Class A is air rifles, rimfires and Shotguns. Air rifles are classed as toys in the USA, here you can expect a jail sentence for owning one without a licence.
Class B is center fire and Shotguns. This class highlights how stupid people make laws. If you have a class B licence and not class A, you can own a Shotgun, but not an air rifle..

Personally, if I was writing our state laws, I'd have separate classes for Air rifles, Rimfires, Shotguns and Centerfires. If you have a higher class licence, it automatically covers the lower class.

Now Shotguns, you cannot own a pump action shotgun, but you can own a lever action shotgun. Duh!

Class C is restricted firearms like pump action shotguns. Farmers don't have much issue getting these permits.
Class D is semi auto firearms and fully auto. The sun needs to shine out of your arse for this kind of class. If you own a museum etc, you can get one. But if you're a shit kicker, not a chance.

Class H is Handguns. It's surprisingly not that hand to get a class H licence, but you do have to do a lot to keep it and there are a lot of very tight restrictions on them.
Clubs and their members basically keep a very tight watch on each other.

[mandc]

Class D is semi auto firearms and fully auto. The sun needs to shine out of your arse for this kind of class.
Class H is Handguns. It's surprisingly not that hand to get a class H licence, but you do have to do a lot to keep it and there are a lot of very tight restrictions on them.

That's one of the laughable inconsistencies with our gun laws. It's really hard to get a permit to own a semi-automatic rifle but much much easier to own a semi-automatic handgun with an 8-10 round magazine.

[Thala Dan]

Hey Trash,

I'll see you and raise you ten

NSW: Slingshots are illegal in NSW and can't be sold (with exception for Pocket Shot Slingshot as it is not 'y' frame).
NSW Weapons Act
Schedule 1 - Prohibited Weapons
Slingshot (being a device consisting of an elasticised band secured to the forks of a “Y” shaped frame)"


ACT: Slingshots are currently available for sale, however you must be over 18yrs of age to purchase.
ACT Weapons Act
ACT Prohibited Weapons Act - Schedule 1


VICTORIA: Commercially made complete slingshots are considered a prohibited weapon.
VIC Weapons Act
Control of Weapons Regulations 2011


TAS: Slingshots are legal in Tasmanian as long as they are used on private property (Confirmed by contact at )
TAS Weapons Act


SA: Slingshots are considered a Dangerous Article, and exemption must be presented.
SA Weapons Act
SA Weapons Regulations


WA: Slingshots are illegal in WA and can't be sold.
WA Weapons Act
WA Weapons Regulations


NT: Slingshots are illegal in NT and can't be sold.
Weapons Control Regulation
NT Legislation Database



Have we become a pack of neutered woosies, or what!?

I guess we could always throw empty coffee cups.

[Thala Dan]

You're comparing an addled racist/reverse racist/mob rule basket case like South Africa to the US? Interesting......ludicrous, but interesting.

Rationalisation at it's desperate best. No gun will save you from a starving and enraged mob.

Haven't been to Sydney or Melbourne lately, have ya, mate

[enf]

Haven't been to Sydney or Melbourne lately, have ya, mate

Actually no, even though I am reasonably close.....

I go to QLD a lot, but only via the Newell so I don't even pass through Sydney.

The mobs there are probably armed anyway and I don't own a gun, never have.

[lsemmens]

Hey Trash,



I guess we could always throw empty coffee cups.

Don't give them ideas or we'll have to drink our brew from paper cups.

[trash]

Thala have you ever been to visit Uncle Sam? (USA)

For those of you who have never been, you have probably seen plenty of Wal-Mart pictures of some of the lower classes and their even lower dress standards.
But what I can tell you is that for any Aussie who accidentally wanders into one, you won't see them come out for a few hours.
Most red blooded Australian males will find themselves in a kind of tar pit called, "the sporting section".

The last time I was there, a friend an I only made our escape from this swindle when we discovered paintball pistols, which we purchased with 1000 paintballs and a couple of CO2 bulbs for the change in our pockets.
We put on our ski masks and headed for the nearest public park where we had a massive shootout. Both covered in bruises and exhausted ourselves and the paintballs, we threw the guns in the bin.

Now if we had done that in Australia. We'd have broken about 20 gun laws and would probably have a criminal record that would have made the Kelly gang jealous.

Then I think about all the other cool shit we did. Like our little trip to South Carolina and Area 51.
"But Trash, Area 51 is in Nevada?"
Yes it is. But it is best if one goes to Dillon SC before proceeding to Rachelle Nevada.

Our American readers will be laughing their arses off right now, because if they have ever driven Highway 95 south... they will be able to tell you all about Pedro's - South of the Border.
If you thought Wal-Mart was frickin awesome, Rocket city awaits! The only way to describe it is to imagine if you were in Coles and the only thing they sold was fireworks.

So one takes their fireworks to Nevada where one lets them off in the desert near Area 51. Shits and giggles all the way. My personal favourite is to buy some road flares and 20ft of rope from a local gas station.

[technoweenie]

Discussion indeed. I'm mobile. Can't post long but will address some statements made later when on laptop. We don't always have to agree, but I appreciate everyone being respectful.

[Thala Dan]

Thala have you ever been to visit Uncle Sam? (USA)

Spent 20 years in the offshore oil and gas industry........business-wise, it was my second home.

Spent one enjoyable afternoon in the hills out of San Diego with some American associates firing off more hardware at empty Bud cans than I'd seen in an Arnold Schwarzenegger movie

They all thought it was great fun (so did I), and just an ordinary sort of thing that a bunch of blokes would do on a Saturday arvo.

They made me wear a Dirty Harry in a shoulder holster, just in case anybody sus wandered over

Apparently there had been some "incidents" in the past.

For them, it was like playing a round of golf, or going to the footy.

Totally different culture.

And whilst I think that they have gone way too far in one direction, I equally believe that we have done the same in the opposite direction.

Which is the most dangerous?

Probably, in the short term, theirs..........in the longer term, potentially ours.

[Skepticist]

Hey Trash,

TAS: Slingshots are legal in Tasmanian as long as they are used on private property (Confirmed by contact at )
TAS Weapons Act

I think you'll find that they're not specifically illegal and would come under the general classification of 'dangerous articles'. The determination of what a 'dangerous article' actually is gets very muddy allowing virtually anything to fit that description at the discretion of a police officer. Reasonable suspicion of possession of such dangerous article(s) allows stop, detain and search (including vehicles) without a warrant.

IE:
POLICE OFFENCES ACT 1935 - SECT 15C

15C. Dangerous articles
(1) A person, without lawful excuse, must not have possession of, or carry or use, a dangerous article in a public place.

So any tradesman transporting his toolbox with as much as a screwdriver, hammer, stanley knife etc in it could be asked to show lawful reason for being in possession of the offending tool(s) in a public place. EG the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article.

[Thala Dan]

I think you'll find that they're not specifically illegal and would come under the general classification of 'dangerous articles'. The determination of what a 'dangerous article' actually is gets very muddy allowing virtually anything to fit that description at the discretion of a police officer. Reasonable suspicion of possession of such dangerous article(s) allows stop, detain and search (including vehicles) without a warrant.

IE:
POLICE OFFENCES ACT 1935 - SECT 15C

15C. Dangerous articles
(1) A person, without lawful excuse, must not have possession of, or carry or use, a dangerous article in a public place.

So any tradesman transporting his toolbox with as much as a screwdriver, hammer, stanley knife etc in it could be asked to show lawful reason for being in possession of the offending tool(s) in a public place. EG the pursuit of a lawful occupation, duty or activity using that dangerous article.

Lately, one of the the most dangerous articles that have been used unlawfully in a public place is the motor vehicle.

Wonder how they'd go with determining "lawful reason" for that

[Thala Dan]

Seattle Police Begin Gun Confiscations: No Laws Broken, No Warrant, No Charges

The new “red flag” law, which has taken hold in other states already, allows the courts and law enforcement to take away guns from individuals they deem are dangerous and they’ve just begun the confiscation. A man living in the Belltown neighborhood of Seattle, Washington became the first individual in the state to have his firearm confiscated without any formal arrest or charges. The man was not identified by authorities.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.

Lao Tzu