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Thread: Another amazing break through

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    Default Another amazing break through

    Yet again a break thru that is going to revolutionize the world, err Australia, err no one
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"



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    "From an energy perspective, the ability to move solar energy or wind energy from one place to another using ammonia opens up doors that previously would have been closed because of the difficulties of transporting hydrogen."
    I thought they were moving hydrogen. Sounds more like hot air, (pun intended) to me.


    Seriously You'd think that they'd be looking at deriving the hydrogen from Water which is readily available. I've no idea of the chemistry involved, but I'd not have considered ammonia as being readily available, or cheap (ecologically) to produce, or to store and then extract the hydrogen therefrom.
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    o Oh geez, not another " we are about to reveloutionise the world with out new fuel/ engine" story. There are about 5 of them a week now and have been in my lifetime yet when it comes down to it, there is no fundamental Difference between what's in the showroom now and a Model T. They all have pistons thrashing up and down and cams and valves and take the same fuel.

    There articles are really just to get some ink and fly the flag for funding and adverting. In this case CSIRO and Hyundai etc.
    The bit about Australia being an energy powerhouse is laughable. The gubbermint whom own CSIRO will sell the tech to the first Foreign entity that is interested in it. Even if they don't, China will get hold of and copy it so net result to Oz, Nil.

    Then again, I believe all this is just greenwashing anyway. the renewable/ green sites will be running this to keep their faithful appeased but in reality, NOTHING is going to replace oil till oil becomes in short enough supply and high enough price that they can make more money from something else. They are not about to throw away untold billions of Dollars in infrastructure because the oil companies and gubbermints that make billions off them are concerned about Clean, emissions free renewable fuels.
    They care about one thing and that's money. The money will be in oil for as long as any of us reading this will be here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    Yet again a break thru that is going to revolutionize the world, err Australia, err no one
    Only useful if the car is actually fuelled with ammonia and converted in the vehicle when needed, which is not their intention.

    These guys in Japan have got it right:


    Australia, as usual on the wrong track.

    What is the point when I still have to store highly pressurised, explosive hydrogen in the service station and in the car.
    Never going to ride a hydrogen bomb

    Nah, I will stick to tiny battery cells that just pop their caps if something goes wrong and giving me plenty of time to evacuate should something catch fire.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post

    Australia, as usual on the wrong track.
    What is the point when I still have to store highly pressurised, explosive hydrogen in the service station and in the car.
    Never going to ride a hydrogen bomb
    I dont know much about ammonia but walking past a Butcher's shop late one night to suddenly not being able to breath due the refrigeration plant had broken down and it was pumping ammonia out of the shop into the street taught me all I ever want to know about ammonia.

    Maybe as a business logo, they could use that famous picture of the Airship Hindenberg crashing in flames ???

    Before anyone says they dont use Ammonia in a commercial plant, this happened in the late 50's long before introduction of Freon and other gases used today.
    Last edited by gordon_s1942; 08-08-18 at 11:55 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    o Oh geez, not another " we are about to reveloutionise the world with out new fuel/ engine" story. There are about 5 of them a week now and have been in my lifetime yet when it comes down to it, there is no fundamental Difference between what's in the showroom now and a Model T. They all have pistons thrashing up and down and cams and valves and take the same fuel.

    There articles are really just to get some ink and fly the flag for funding and adverting. In this case CSIRO and Hyundai etc.
    The bit about Australia being an energy powerhouse is laughable. The gubbermint whom own CSIRO will sell the tech to the first Foreign entity that is interested in it. Even if they don't, China will get hold of and copy it so net result to Oz, Nil.

    Then again, I believe all this is just greenwashing anyway. the renewable/ green sites will be running this to keep their faithful appeased but in reality, NOTHING is going to replace oil till oil becomes in short enough supply and high enough price that they can make more money from something else. They are not about to throw away untold billions of Dollars in infrastructure because the oil companies and gubbermints that make billions off them are concerned about Clean, emissions free renewable fuels.
    They care about one thing and that's money. The money will be in oil for as long as any of us reading this will be here.
    This is the science section of the forum.
    Political opinions are best posted in General Chat but now you started it, I would prefer that our government invested a little bit in new technologies insead of giving away billions for the rich to get richer on coal mines.
    Instead funding for the CSIRO has been gutted under the coalition, so of course they need some public attention to get funding elsewhere.

    Using Ammonia to store hydrogen is a fantastic new approach that has a lot of merit if implemented correctly.

    Please explain from a technical perspective why you think this is of no use.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 08-08-18 at 12:15 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post
    I dont know much about ammonia but walking past a Butcher's shop late one night to suddenly not being able to breath due the refrigeration plant had broken down and it was pumping ammonia out of the shop into the street taught me all I ever want to know about ammonia.

    Maybe as a business logo, they could use that famous picture of the Airship Hindenberg crashing in flames ???

    Before anyone says they dont use Ammonia in a commercial plant, this happened in the late 50's long before introduction of Freon and other gases used today.
    So you would prefer the smell of petrol if they pumped that out on the street
    I think the idea is to keep these liquids still contained.

    I can't even stand the smell of petrol when I fill up, for some reason I like the smell of diesel slightly better but the smell that comes out of the exhausts of both of them REALLY makes me sick.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 08-08-18 at 12:11 PM.
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    "Dr Dolan said renewable hydrogen was seen as Australia's next export boom"

    Wouldn't surprise me much although the 'booms' could be local events as well.
    And large scale ammonia transportation has considerable risks too (Bopal type event with a large release in populated areas)

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    I'm not sure why the negative perception of Hydrogen as flammable persists. Petrol and LPG burn pretty well for me too.
    Shit burning is the least of your problems.

    The practical issue with Hydrogen is storing it. I was just going to write a nice simple explanation of the issues, but the wikipedia page nails it.


    Ok.. so lets ignore all the real world problems and just assume you can fill your tank with ammonia and the flux capacitor magically converts it all to hydrogen in real and practical time and energy.
    So far so good. It's all unicorn farts so far.

    Now you have that crash that where you feared the hydrogen might burn before floating away. Only this time, it's not hydrogen, it's Ammonia and it's not on fire (yet).
    Thinking there's up to 70kg of this in the tank that is now boiling off as a gas, jesus on a stick. You're not going to be running in to help the poor bastards trapped in the wreckage.
    As Gordon has mention... when you have smelt ammonia it has an almost magical ability to adjust any attitude you might have and converts it all into a desire to get away from it as quickly and as far as possible.
    Sticking around is going to expedite your very unpleasant death. Even just tiny leaks from filling up at the pump are going to be extremely unpleasant.

    Back to Hydrogen...
    Storing Hydrogen in a car... it's going to be a compressed gas because you can't use liquid hydrogen. There's 4 times less energy density off the bat and you're now lugging around a heavy steel tank instead of the nice light petroleum.

    I'm not going to be betting on this one any time soon.


    Though I am a bit disappointed that this one article was based on not unrealistic science. There has been a bit of cold fusion and water powered cars cropping up in Queensland.
    I thought this article might be one of those and I was looking forward to tearing the pseudoscience a new arsehole
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    This is the science section of the forum.
    Please explain from a technical perspective why you think this is of no use.
    I already did explain. See my comments about oil supply and profit. That's the reason right there.
    I think the technicalities are irrelevant.... -IF- and it's a big IF the other factors such as cost, total energy efficiency and a load of other things stack up in the first place.
    If everything we did ( or didn't do) was based on technical merit alone, we would live in a vastly different world.
    We are all aware doing what is best is a long way from what actually gets done.

    These feelgood Ra ra articles are a Dime a dozen. The credibility of this one is tipped off to me with the word " could" in the headline. Anything after that is just filling space and flying the flag in what is more likley to be a PR stunt than anything remotely helpful in practical use.

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    you're now lugging around a heavy steel tank instead of the nice light petroleum

    Trash, am disappointed in you. CSIRO are going to invent a light weight carbon tank for it
    There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"

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    You know what comes to mind first allover.... the size of the tanks.

    So I'm picturing the interceptor from Mad Max ..... you know.. where he's using camels to pull it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    I already did explain. See my comments about oil supply and profit. That's the reason right there.
    I think the technicalities are irrelevant.... -IF- and it's a big IF the other factors such as cost, total energy efficiency and a load of other things stack up in the first place.
    If everything we did ( or didn't do) was based on technical merit alone, we would live in a vastly different world.
    We are all aware doing what is best is a long way from what actually gets done.

    These feelgood Ra ra articles are a Dime a dozen. The credibility of this one is tipped off to me with the word " could" in the headline. Anything after that is just filling space and flying the flag in what is more likley to be a PR stunt than anything remotely helpful in practical use.
    That article is sensationalist, they usually are, because that is what the media thinks it's readers want.I am a bit annoyed that they present the CSIRO kind of like the originators of this process, while it is already in various stages of development in other countries.

    This new tech will be only relevant for other countries when available anyhow, Australians will keep their petrol guzzlers for a very long time, not to worry.
    If the CSIRO can sell their process to some country that actually needs it, then good for them. Why would would anybody be upset about that?
    Ahem, where I DO have a pickle with the CSIRO is their Patent 'totalitarism' that makes it almost impossible for any local entrepreneur or 'start-up' to get any useful innovation viable on the local market.

    So if somebody were to be designing an Ammonia -> H2 catalyser in their garage then they may be now upset but they also manage have their fingers EVERYWHERE else as well.
    The CSIRO has you patent-locked in this country, no wonder they all have to go to China or we have to wait decades before new stuff can be locally produced here.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 08-08-18 at 11:54 PM.
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    I actually have friends who travelled around Australia by burning wood to fuel their car. The to fuel cars has been around since WWII. Whilst the idea has some merit, it is still burning "fossil" fuels.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    I actually have friends who travelled around Australia by burning wood to fuel their car. The to fuel cars has been around since WWII.
    My grand father had a " cartage" business During the war. The had 3 trucks with " charcoal burners" on them. He could go from Cowra in NSW to Sydney on a Pint of petrol each way. About 200 miles back then.
    Because of his low fuel use, the gubbermint contracted him to move supplies each way. He was already doing well with private/ company work so was always loaded and left one truck one end and drove another one preloaded up for him back. He applied to enlist as other men his age were doing but got knocked back because he was deemed to be providing an " essential" service and therefore was needed at home.

    I remember as a kid they used to talk about petrol " Running out" and gran and grandad could never see the big deal. They ran charcoal burners for years as did many others and they just figured while a bit more work,at least you'd still be able to get around.


    Whilst the idea has some merit, it is still burning "fossil" fuels.
    I think technicaly wood would be renewable fuel.
    You can bet the greenwashed would still whinge about it though

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    burning wood ....... it is still burning "fossil" fuels.
    Actually No. Wood is not a fossil.
    Burning wood is a renewable fuel source... it grows back !

    Fossil fuels are Peat, Brown Coal, Black Coal, Gas (Natural and CSG). Crude, Tar and Shale Oils.

    Whale oil, would be a renewable and not a fossil fuel. The whales also grow back
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    Which is why I "quoted" it. Of course the green(un)washed will have a hissy fit if someone were to suggest this as a viable alternative.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Which is why I "quoted" it. Of course the green(un)washed will have a hissy fit if someone were to suggest this as a viable alternative.
    Sorry, should have realised and you are of course spot on.

    The green washed have a fit if you mention burning anything..... even renewable fuels and lard candles for the particularly screwed up ones.
    When it comes to energy, there is always one lot of greenwashed whining about the very thing the other loot of green loonies wanted. You literally can't live in a cave according to greenie law because the humidity from your breath and the heat from your fire will destroy the eco system in the cave and it would be a terrible catastrophe to wipe out the Malaria Mosquito that resides in them or chase a few hundred of the 100 Billion bats out of there.

    I have seen many times now where picking up dead wood from the bush is frowned upon because if you burn it you release C02 and other greenwashed gasses.
    yes, I know leaving it there to decompose emits the exact same gasses in the same amount BUT, please keep that quiet because it upsets the green Koolaide drinkers tea party.

    Last thing they want to hear is truth, fact and logic!

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    The thing about picking up dead wood, isn't so much the CO2 but the destruction of habitat for some of the smaller creatures that hide in the rotting vegetation. To a point, I do agree with that. I do pick up dead wood, typically, though, freshly fallen branches where there is little or no chance of anything taking up residence. I occasionally do find a huntsman hiding under the bark, but he can happily find a new home in my garden.
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