What signal goes to screamer, siren and strobe?

[OzTynker]

Hi Guys,
I have been trying to integrate my Ness 8DX into my Home Assistant system with only limited success due to what appears to be an incompatible motherboard. So now I am thinking of just piggy backing onto it so the Alarm works as normal but I can also cause the internal screamer, outside siren and outside strobe to activate. Just want to know if anyone can tell me if these things just get a constant power signal or if a PWM signal is sent to them?
Cheers...

Edit: If it is just a 12V output then I plan on using three of these to switch between the board and directly powering them. Thus using an ESP I should be able to control the outputs directly or the board will control them. Best of both worlds?

Edit2: Actually I am looking at the board schematic and maybe I should just tap into the tamper line. I could then trigger a tamper alarm which will cause the alarm to go off wheter it is armed or not? Thoughts?

[minitechie_94]

Hi Guys,
I have been trying to integrate my Ness 8DX into my Home Assistant system with only limited success due to what appears to be an incompatible motherboard. So now I am thinking of just piggy backing onto it so the Alarm works as normal but I can also cause the internal screamer, outside siren and outside strobe to activate. Just want to know if anyone can tell me if these things just get a constant power signal or if a PWM signal is sent to them?
Cheers...

Edit: If it is just a 12V output then I plan on using three of these to switch between the board and directly powering them. Thus using an ESP I should be able to control the outputs directly or the board will control them. Best of both worlds?

Edit2: Actually I am looking at the board schematic and maybe I should just tap into the tamper line. I could then trigger a tamper alarm which will cause the alarm to go off wheter it is armed or not? Thoughts?

Screamer: should be 12V DC output from a relay, active for a limited time after alarm triggered. Should stop after 5 minutes under most regulations.
Strobe: should be 12V DC output from a relay, active for much longer than the screamer but may still stop after a few hours.
Horn speaker: Amplified AC audio output - this is why some alarms can do separate tones for different events. Hook straight to a passive speaker and off you go.
Combined strobe/siren: basically the same as the screamer or strobe output - pretty common in new installs. Older "satellite" sirens may use a more complex signalling arrangement to detect wire cuts.

If you're trying to remotely "trigger" an alarm due to some event in HA, I'd caution against doing so BUT you could add a remote relay or something to an unused zone, and program HA to trigger to activate a relay. Just make sure to program the zone as a 24-hour burglary zone and to ensure the end-of-line resistor and the way an alarm activates (active on open or closed circuit) matches the alarm's current programming. Also expect teething pains until you get this sorted out, would suggest earplugs.

[OzTynker]

I'd caution against doing so BUT you could add a remote relay or something to an unused zone, and program HA to trigger to activate a relay.

Thanks for all that. The AC signal to the siren eliminates the piggy backing idea I think. However I do have the eighth zone unused so I could totally use that. A D1 mini to a relay would easily do the trick. Can you elaborate on your concerns about doing this?

[minitechie_94]

Thanks for all that. The AC signal to the siren eliminates the piggy backing idea I think. However I do have the eighth zone unused so I could totally use that. A D1 mini to a relay would easily do the trick. Can you elaborate on your concerns about doing this?

So, at least in terms of insurance and generally "doing things the right way", when you start messing with things that are built to meet Australian standards or are assumed to be comprised solely of regulated products, sometimes strange things happen that compromise the integrity of the whole system.

If your HA system or the relay has an issue, it compromises the integrity of the alarm system as you could be prone to false-negative or false-positives. Anytime you make a change to a relatively-closed system, there can obviously be consequences that you don't foresee.

My question to you is how much faith do you (or can you) have once you start adding your own "parts" to the alarm system, rather than adding warranted, tested and compliant parts? If your HA system goes down or the relay part fails, does the relay and zone circuit fail-safe or fail-secure? How do you detect a shorted or open circuit caused by a cable break or other failure (hint: end-of-line resistors will help with this)? How do you ensure the HA system can't be jammed or otherwise have its service compromised which may cause erroneous activations, or no activation at all?

Further, what are your goals for adding an alarm signal from HA? Water leak detection, a "personal attack" signal or what? Are you just trying to be able to remotely activate the notification appliances to scare off parcel thieves, etc.? You might be better off with a remote doorbell/intercom that has 2-way communications, or with an IP capable alarm panel that you can access from your phone and remotely trigger a panic alarm or bell test. For most of these purposes, you could likely find a part from a reputable manufacturer that will achieve those goals, with a warranty and responsibility on their part to ensure proper operation and a liability if they don't work.

If your insurance policy has lower premiums because you have declared a compliant, properly-installed and tested alarm system, that will be compromised if you interfere in any way with the operation or makeup of the system and its components (and, also, don't follow all required testing and maintenance).

Like most problems, work out the why before the how - there may be existing products that can achieve what you're after that will save you a lot of effort, debugging and maintenance.

[minitechie_94]

Also, just had a look at the installer manual for the D8/16X:

Siren output on PCB [amplified AC horn speaker output]: The on-board siren driver will drive a maximum of 3 x 8 ohm horn speakers (Ness Part No. NOI110 or 100-171 Internal Siren). The will reset at the end of siren time (P29E) or whenever the panel is reset, whichever comes first. This output is protected by an Automatic Reset fuse.

STR output on PCB [DC strobe output]: A latched 12VDC output for connecting strobe lights. This output will reset after 72 hours (3 days) or when the panel is disarmed. (D8/D16 versions prior to V4.5 allow indefinite strobe operation, until the panel is reset). A maximum of 2 x 1 Watt Strobes (Ness Part No. NOI300) can be connected to this output. This output is protected by an Automatic Reset fuse.

RESET output on PCB [DC screamer or siren/strobe combo output]: A 12V DC output for connecting Ness sirens, piezo sirens or relays, etc. This output will reset at the end of siren time (P29E) or whenever the panel is reset, whichever comes first. A maximum of 3 x 12V piezo screamers (Ness Part No. 100-238, 100-004) or 2 X Ness Piezo (Part No 100-172) can be connected to this output. This output is protected by an Automatic Reset fuse.

You also have 4 Aux outputs on the AUX header, 100mA max open collector outputs (switch negative) which are individually programmable for different events/functions, as well as a 12V DC output up to 100mA.

Also, this note appears in the manual too:

SIREN LOAD. A maximum output of 2.0A continuous is available from the SIREN and RESET outputs and 200mA from the STR output.

Recommended maximum power load:
3 x Horn speakers (SIREN output)
2 x Strobe lights (STR output)
2 x Ness Internal Sirens (100-172) (RESET output)

Note: (This assumes no more than 500mA is being drawn from the 12V device outputs).

[OzTynker]

Like most problems, work out the why before the how

Thanks for all that info it's great.

The alarm system is pretty much not used at the moment and has no bearing on my insurance.

So the why is that there is an integration for the D8/16X for HA which communicates with the board via the serial connection. Unfortunately, there are a number of boards which aren't working, they transmit status changes but any attempt to send to the board just results in the board echoing back. Many people including myself have tried direct serial comms as well with the same results. So I have access to the PIR sensor status which is great but I can't arm or disarm the panel. So by adding a NO reed relay to my Zone 8 (with the resistor in place) and having that as a 24 Hour zone I will be able to have a fail safe setup that allows me to trigger the alarm. I have all my doors and windows monitored with Zigbee sensors but these are not connected to the alarm. However, I can use an alarm setup in HA using all of the sensors in the house and cause the external siren to trigger which will alert my neighbours to come and see what is going on!

[minitechie_94]

So the why is that there is an integration for the D8/16X for HA which communicates with the board via the serial connection. Unfortunately, there are a number of boards which aren't working, they transmit status changes but any attempt to send to the board just results in the board echoing back.

From the D8/16X ASCII protocol document:

The D16X ALARM PANELS RS232 serial interface allows communication between various external devices. This document details the input and outputs messages – all of which use an ASCII Protocol.
The ASCII outputs are

• Event data
• Panel status

The ASCII inputs are

• Keypad strings
• User code entry
• Arming

You'd probably know by now but it's 9600 baud 8N1 data but also note that, if your intent is to transmit an "alarm" from HA to the panel, you'd appear to be SOL EXCEPT for...

Many people including myself have tried direct serial comms as well with the same results. So I have access to the PIR sensor status which is great but I can't arm or disarm the panel.

Using a "panic" alarm, you should be able to trigger the alarm via HA. Sending a keypad string "P" is apparently the same as sending a double panic key which should immediately (if the panel is programmed to do so) trigger the sounders and strobe, without needing to arm/disarm (except to clear the alarm, see below).

You should be able to pass "keypad strings" to the alarm which should allow arm/disarm, etc. but you'd need to make sure the address and checksums match, I'd assume.

So by adding a NO reed relay to my Zone 8 (with the resistor in place) and having that as a 24 Hour zone I will be able to have a fail safe setup that allows me to trigger the alarm. I have all my doors and windows monitored with Zigbee sensors but these are not connected to the alarm. However, I can use an alarm setup in HA using all of the sensors in the house and cause the external siren to trigger which will alert my neighbours to come and see what is going on!

In principle, yes that should work, but will only be as reliable as the Zigbee signals and HA's logic. Do note that to CANCEL any of these alarms you will need to disarm the panel as they are "latching", so make sure you have a way to do that as well.

I have seen a lot of threads online regarding the serial comms not working on these panels - from a quick Google there are a lot of complaints regarding echoing and not being able to run two-way comms. It's probably not you, it might be something weird with the panel or the way its been designed. When I was trying to get serial comms working with a Bosch panel, it was actually my TTL to USB adaptor that was causing issues but as soon as I got one that ran at a higher voltage, it worked immediately. YMMV but it seems like you're not alone.

Just as an aside, btw, if you want a remote "disarm", I think I might have found a way to do both a HA triggered alarm and a HA triggered arm/disarm (although this will leave you and the overall system EXTREMELY vulnerable if someone gets into your HA or to the relay, so use with care)

Zone 8 can act as a keyswitch zone, and in momentary configuration can provide a way to flip-flop the system from armed to disarmed, as well as send a panic alarm if the zone goes open circuit. This would need 2 relays but could be viable, although I can't test this myself. Across the "keyswitch" (arm/disarm) NO relay, you'd need a 2K2 EOL resistor (and need to program the panel as such), and then a way to "break" the same circuit with a NC relay to trigger the panic alarm from HA. This setup is described on page 24 of the installation manual for the alarm, but again, use this with care as there is meant to be the additional layer of security with having a "key", but you could use any type of switch (or short) to trigger the flip-flop.

[OzTynker]

In principle, yes that should work, but will only be as reliable as the Zigbee signals and HA's logic. Do note that to CANCEL any of these alarms you will need to disarm the panel as they are "latching", so make sure you have a way to do that as well.

Yes it is a good point about the disarming. I had another thought to pull apart a radio fob I have and connect relays to each switch and control it that way...

I have seen a lot of threads online regarding the serial comms not working on these panels - from a quick Google there are a lot of complaints regarding echoing and not being able to run two-way comms. It's probably not you, it might be something weird with the panel or the way its been designed. When I was trying to get serial comms working with a Bosch panel, it was actually my TTL to USB adaptor that was causing issues but as soon as I got one that ran at a higher voltage, it worked immediately. YMMV but it seems like you're not alone.

Yeah could be it. It would have to be a flaky panel that requires the higher voltage because I am using the exact same Ethernet to Serial adapter that others who have it working are using...

Just as an aside, btw, if you want a remote "disarm", I think I might have found a way to do both a HA triggered alarm and a HA triggered arm/disarm (although this will leave you and the overall system EXTREMELY vulnerable if someone gets into your HA or to the relay, so use with care)

Zone 8 can act as a keyswitch zone, and in momentary configuration can provide a way to flip-flop the system from armed to disarmed, as well as send a panic alarm if the zone goes open circuit. This would need 2 relays but could be viable, although I can't test this myself. Across the "keyswitch" (arm/disarm) NO relay, you'd need a 2K2 EOL resistor (and need to program the panel as such), and then a way to "break" the same circuit with a NC relay to trigger the panic alarm from HA. This setup is described on page 24 of the installation manual for the alarm, but again, use this with care as there is meant to be the additional layer of security with having a "key", but you could use any type of switch (or short) to trigger the flip-flop.

That is a great option that I will look at. I see the info on page 24! Could be a perfect solution! Thanks...

[mattb]

I'm also playing around with my Ness 16Dx panel with the intention of running Home Assistant from it - however at the moment I am just testing it all with the SmartThings app to confirm functionality.

I recently purchased a Konnected.io interface board, which I have setup to monitor each of the alarm zones (motion sensors etc), I have also setup Zone 8 on the panel to be a keyswitch and can remotely arm and disarm the alarm and see the motion sensors triggering on the SmartThings app.

The only thing that I am struggling with is getting the alarm panel to send an alarm notification to the Konnected board. I am trying to use the Aux1 output on the panel to send either a NO or NC signal to the Konnected board. I have programmed the panel to trigger Aux1 on the activation of an alarm (confirmed on the panel display by showing AUX1 on the screen when an alarm activates) - but I can't see any change in status on that pin when the alarm triggers? Has anyone else used Aux1 on a Ness panel to trigger something ?
I'm thinking that if I can't get anything out of the Aux outputs, I might try and tap into the screamer output - although I don't think the Konnected board will like 12v being injected into it, so I may need another relay.

Happy to take any advise.

[OzTynker]

I am trying to use the Aux1 output on the panel to send either a NO or NC signal to the Konnected board.

Not sure what the output of AUX1 actually should be but I do see in the manual under the P121 codes "If the AUX1 output does not behave as expected please check the related options such as Auto Timers and P141E options"

[minitechie_94]

I'm also playing around with my Ness 16Dx panel with the intention of running Home Assistant from it - however at the moment I am just testing it all with the SmartThings app to confirm functionality.

I recently purchased a Konnected.io interface board, which I have setup to monitor each of the alarm zones (motion sensors etc), I have also setup Zone 8 on the panel to be a keyswitch and can remotely arm and disarm the alarm and see the motion sensors triggering on the SmartThings app.

The only thing that I am struggling with is getting the alarm panel to send an alarm notification to the Konnected board. I am trying to use the Aux1 output on the panel to send either a NO or NC signal to the Konnected board. I have programmed the panel to trigger Aux1 on the activation of an alarm (confirmed on the panel display by showing AUX1 on the screen when an alarm activates) - but I can't see any change in status on that pin when the alarm triggers? Has anyone else used Aux1 on a Ness panel to trigger something ?
I'm thinking that if I can't get anything out of the Aux outputs, I might try and tap into the screamer output - although I don't think the Konnected board will like 12v being injected into it, so I may need another relay.

Happy to take any advise.

Check the polarity of the output of the aux - you could also use an optoisolator or tap a relay off of the 12V output that can then be monitored by the Konnected.

[mattb]

Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to get an alarm activation signal from the panel into the Konnected interface yet.

I did have a play yesterday and found that no matter what changes I made in the panel programming, the AUX output on the panel never changed for an alarm or any other reason (I tried a bunch of options in the programming). I'm not sure if I have an issue with the AUX pins on my board, but I don't think I will be able to use them to signal an alarm.

I think I will have another go at using the siren or strobe output on the panel and going into a relay or an optoisolator - I should then be able to configure the Konnected interface to see a change in state on this output.

I also haven't got the Keyswitch working 100% yet, it appears to arm the alarm using the Smartthings App, but If i then try and disarm the alarm immediately nothing happens - it requires another button push to disarm the alarm to work correctly. I am just waiting for a Raspberry Pi to arrive later this week so that I can start playing around with Home Assistant - I'm hoping that the keyswitch setting may be more reliable through that system.

The other problem is that I will have to remove the whole alarm system in the next week, as the cupboard that it is mounted in is getting replaced (not looking forward to that). So my ability to play around with the settings will be limited soon. Fun fun fun.

[OzTynker]

Zone 8 can act as a keyswitch zone, and in momentary configuration can provide a way to flip-flop the system from armed to disarmed, as well as send a panic alarm if the zone goes open circuit.

I have implemented this and it works perfectly. Thanks for the idea. For anyone interested a quick writeup is here:

[minitechie_94]

I have implemented this and it works perfectly. Thanks for the idea. For anyone interested a quick writeup is here:

It's funny because the way you have implemented this for the Ness is exactly how I was going to do for my Bosch panel, but I'm halfway through working out the serial protocol between ALINK (the DOS software EDM/Bosch provide for configuration) and the old Solution panels. I've also just started my HA journey - the alarm integration is more proof of concept for me than anything else but it's good to see you've figured it all out.

[mattb]

I've now got the arm / disarm working fine on zone 8 with the keyswitch and my Konnected board. I am using a Shelly Uni connected to the strobe output to detect a voltage change when in alarm mode, this is picked up in Home Assistant for notifications and anything else I want to do in an automation. I'm also using all of my existing motion sensors installed for the security alarm in Home Assistant for presence detection.