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Thread: Solar Panels and inverter being replaced

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    Default Solar Panels and inverter being replaced

    So I had my installer come out to do a check of our panels and they tell that they all failed, even though they are still producing. So they are replacing them all and the inverter under warranty - they are 6 years old, 25 years warranty on the panels but only 5 on the inverter - they tell me that the new panels will need a different type of inverter which is why they are replacing it FOC.

    Very happy that I paid extra to go with a reputable installer rather than a fly by nighter.

    Panels are 250W Trina and the inverter is a 5kW Aurora



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    Trina panels are known to fall over.
    In qld and the more tropical areas north thay have had huge problems and had to replace thousands of the things literally. I have bought a lot of panels and set my own 20 Kw system up but the only ones I won't touch are the Trina panels. I believe the new ones are OK but the older ones had a major problem. Wonder the company hasn't gone under really.

    Aurora inverters were not great either. They were well enough featured but I have been through 4 of them now. All seem to fail the same way with the tracking going nuts and output up and down several times a second. Mate had them as OEM on his install as well and went through 3 in 5 years Even though he only had a 2 KW system runnning through both trackers on a 3.6 KW outdoor unit mounted in a cool spot of his garage .

    None of the older inverters were really much chop. They all pretty much have a 5 Yr life. Depends how you treat them too. I have a Delta in the shed and I have put a heat switch on the thing so a fan blows down the back of the fins and across the front to keep it cool. The heat that comes out of the thing well belies the supposed efficiency that's for sure. People always worry about the warranty on the panels as if it actually matters whether you get 10 years or 20 but forget all about the inverters.

    You did do well to find an installer that will stand by their work like this. They are pretty much obligated to replace the whole system now anyway. Unless the panels and or inverter are on the CEC list, you cannot " repair" or upgrade a non compliant system by law. It's a good benefit to you as you will be getting an over all more efficient setup.

    Do you know what panels and Inverter you will be getting as replacements? I imagine they will haveing to be doing the racking as well because the earthing requirements and Isolator mounting has also changed compliance wise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi_tasol View Post
    So I had my installer come out to do a check of our panels and they tell that they all failed, even though they are still producing. So they are replacing them all and the inverter under warranty - they are 6 years old, 25 years warranty on the panels but only 5 on the inverter - they tell me that the new panels will need a different type of inverter which is why they are replacing it FOC.

    Very happy that I paid extra to go with a reputable installer rather than a fly by nighter.

    Panels are 250W Trina and the inverter is a 5kW Aurora
    You'd have to be happy with that...
    Im the person that would get screwed over hard!
    You've done well
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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post

    Do you know what panels and Inverter you will be getting as replacements? I imagine they will haveing to be doing the racking as well because the earthing requirements and Isolator mounting has also changed compliance wise.
    Not sure yet, they did say that the inverter would have a 10 year warranty though. I will find out next Monday.

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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    You'd have to be happy with that...
    Im the person that would get screwed over hard!
    You've done well
    You bet, gotta have a win sometimes

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    because the earthing requirements and Isolator mounting has also changed compliance wise.
    Is a DIY install still possible?
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    Is a DIY install still possible?
    There is nothing to stop you installing your own equipment provided your able and you DONT go anywhere near the MAINS.....

    Reports are surfacing that some Distibutors of Electricity are moaning there is an 'Over Supply' and some were very concerned that with Summer coming on with more Supply than demand, the 'surplus' could damage the network.

    I never understood much about generation or supply until a workmate's Father was a Control Room operator in a major Generator told me that every day it was a constant battle regulating the supply.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post

    Reports are surfacing that some Distibutors of Electricity are moaning there is an 'Over Supply' and some were very concerned that with Summer coming on with more Supply than demand, the 'surplus' could damage the network.
    .
    This is an interesting dynamic come 9pm on a 38 degree Victorian night when everyone has their AC on, Restaurants and Motels and pumping.
    What over supply of Solar are they getting at 9pm?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    Is a DIY install still possible?
    Depends what POV you look at it from.
    The physical install is not much at all. The rules and regs are a dogs breakfast. they are so contradictory right no that it is literally impossible to do an install that does not breach some part of the mess they have created. The earthing and Isolation is a good one. I can't remember which version is the supposed correct one now but I can tell you that the main panel isolator is supposed to be as close to the panels as Possible.... IE, in the effing ROOF! In the old days they put it next tot eh inverter.... where anyone could turn it off without having to get a ladder and climb up there. With the old regs grandma would have no trouble shutting the panels down, having to get on the roof to do it may pose more of a challenge for her and a heck of a lot of other people not to mention the obvious time difference in an emergency.

    I know the Fire brigades of 2 states are opposing the new regs for this and other parts and have come out about a year back and said they will not permit the setup on any of their property's and have lodged strong opposition to the present regs and want them changed. there have been numerous roof fires directly related to the new earthing and isolation regs.

    The legalities are you are not allowed to work on anything over 50 or 80V ( forget which one but lower than solar Voltage) unless you are a licensed sparky WITH solar accreditation.
    It is not just the mains, but anything that is over the " low voltage" Classification.
    Of course depends if you give a damn.

    I did all my own solar which is 4 arrays and inverters myself. It does not meet regulations, it far and away exceeds them on the logical safety part at least. Solar disconnects are on the ground level so that part would fail as would others relating to the multiple breakers I have in the system. I have a Sparky mate that has looked over everything I have done and his constant comments are " What did you do it like that for? You didn't have to go to all THAT trouble!" My standard comeback is " Oh, so you mean my house isn't going to burn down?"
    He says not unless someone throws petrol around and lights it it won't.

    I'm going to uprate the system some more and for this I'll need some heavy Duty Circuits put in as I'm at the Limit of MY comfort with teh existing ones. Still under capacity for the wiring but that's where I want to keep it. I'm going to run 3 phase up to the shed while I'm at it.

    DIY solar is dead easy, it's made that way for all the licensed installers and the fly by nighters who hire overseas travelers to put it all up then get their own licensed guy to sign off on it usually without checking means it has to be that way. A mate of mine got a company in and had a LOT of trouble. I was sad he didn't ask for my help with it but he didn't want to bother me. He'd been waiting for them to come back out as the system wasn't working. I got up and had a look and was appalled. The morons had completely screwed it which I would have said wasn't possible till I saw it. The panels were wired back to themselves and they had managed to also loop the circuit for the inverter back on itself. Took me a while to figure it out because I thought I was getting it wrong. Yeah, plugged the thing in correctly and it booted straight up. Only problem was they had short changed him on the inverter so he rang them about that, sent some pics and said he'd had someone look at it and would be getting a fair trading inspector out next. They sent him another correctly sized inverter, I fixed a bunch of things up with the install itself and he told them all was good and for them never to come back.

    Bottom line is NO, a Legally compliant DIY is not possible because you have to be a licensed sparky with CEC solar accreditation.
    If you have an ILlegal install, all they can do is make you disconnect from the grid. Can't make you take it down, just disconnect. Can't fine you either and it's not a criminal mater either.
    had a solicitor mate look into it. :0) All they can do is make you is make you disconnect it from their supply. People have said on forums they can disconnect your house. Put that to solicitor mate and he said you should be so lucky.

    You could make a LOT of money if they did that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post

    Reports are surfacing that some Distibutors of Electricity are moaning there is an 'Over Supply' and some were very concerned that with Summer coming on with more Supply than demand, the 'surplus' could damage the network.
    The Reports are everywhere, even on TV with power co heads belating about it.

    IT is a complete and utter crock of shit!!

    Not about the grid at all. It's about them loosing too much money!!
    The problems with solar backfeed are very Minor and also limited to areas with old equipment ( transformers) that should already be replaced. A lot of the difficulties when they occur is largely due to lack of maintenance.

    The thing about " Could damage the network" is the same as saying you " could" afford that $10M house if you won the lottery. Ask them to clarify a situation where the networkd WOULD be damaged and youll get a lot of waffle and BS and no realistic example.

    The whole thing of too much power is a crock.
    Electricity would travel 100KM at a min to most places. If you say a whole suburb has solar panels generating power through the day and backfeeding the system for example.
    Sure all the houses may be power surplus but think about your own area. How far is it to the local shopping centre? they gobble down HUGE amounts of power and how far are they from you? Sure, there may be 5000 houses in the same area but what about the servos and the Maccas and the hospital and ALL the other business, offices, schools and everyone else, including the next suburbs that are pulling power?

    To suggest that there is more power generated than can be used is an insult to ones intelligence.
    I don't know why they even bitch. They buy it from the householder for .08C KWH and are probably selling it to the guy next door or 3 down for 30C Kwh.

    a workmate's Father was a Control Room operator in a major Generator told me that every day it was a constant battle regulating the supply.
    Yep, always has been over the last 100 years. but now it's a bit different.
    Before it was more a matter of ramping up the generators to meet ANTICIPATED demand. Coal fired powerplace has to cycle. Flat out at night when everyone is home cooking, and being active, nothing at 3 am hen they are all asleep. The battle was ramping supply up and down as demand required.
    It's till is but now it's more a matter of the Cost of the power. You have generators of power, distributors and retailers. The battle now is putting in your big for how much power you want on the market and not buying/ reserving too much and loosing profits.

    It's bugger all to do with poles and wires as they want to have you believe and use the " safe" word a lot to add intimidation, it's all about their profits. The problem with solar is on a Sunny day they don't need to buy so they loose money and on cloudy days the demand goes up and so does the wholesale price which eats into their profits.

    Big bix and their gubbermint puppets want it all their own way. The Profitable way. they talk about renewable energy and the gut busting hurry to get off fossil fuels and clean energy and all that but the second it eats into their profits... don't want to know! Even if the grid is becoming "Over supplied" which is causing technical issues, why would the companies not use the money they are all investing in solar farms to update the grid to handle it so they could utilise all this Clean, green energy instead of spending it building not so environmentally friendly solar farms and sending the power hundreds of KM?

    Profit is why.
    Make your own power, they make nothing. Buy the power from them and they make mega profits.

    I regularly suck down 50Kwh+ a day in my all electric everything house. My average quartely bill, bit over $300...... of which $100 is " Supply charges" . I could get it lower but as my solar is booleg and I want to keep them pacified, I leave a bit on the meters and don't get greedy. My BIL round the corner was complaining last night because his quarterly bill has gone from $1500 quarter to $1800. He works from his large home so it's not as excessive as it sounds but he could save a fortune with a solar setup as well..... which is exactly why the power companies would shut them down in a heartbeat given the chance.

    I have 3 weeks to go till my next meter read and switched all my solar off yesterday. I'm so far ahead I reckon it's going to take more than a week to burn it all off and this moth has had 6 out of 7 days overcast! Also no need to use the AC for heating or cooling which makes a big Difference.

    And speaking of which... was only a few years back the power co's were bitching about AC overloading the gold plated wires and poles and were facing massive infrastructure cost to upgrade to the demand. That's the whole dame reason solar was pushed and subsidised in the first place... because the power co's were so behind they were fearing wide spread and daily blackouts. they had to reduce the demand so the way they did it was get people putting solar on their roof. Now it's worked all a bit too well they are still bitching and making up BS to protect their profits.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post


    The whole thing of too much power is a crock.
    Electricity would travel 100KM at a min to most places. If you say a whole suburb has solar panels generating power through the day and backfeeding the system for example.
    Sure all the houses may be power surplus but think about your own area. How far is it to the local shopping centre? they gobble down HUGE amounts of power and how far are they from you? Sure, there may be 5000 houses in the same area but what about the servos and the Maccas and the hospital and ALL the other business, offices, schools and everyone else, including the next suburbs that are pulling power?

    To suggest that there is more power generated than can be used is an insult to ones intelligence.
    I don't know why they even bitch. They buy it from the householder for .08C KWH and are probably selling it to the guy next door or 3 down for 30C Kwh.

    Yep, where I work we have 300 panels on the roof feeding one of our mechanical services boards and we still manage to draw about 5 to 6,000 kWh per day from the grid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi_tasol View Post
    Yep, where I work we have 300 panels on the roof feeding one of our mechanical services boards and we still manage to draw about 5 to 6,000 kWh per day from the grid.
    Holy Smoke!

    300 Panels and pulling 5k KW plus. What sort of industry do you work in?

    I watched a report ON YT the other night done recently by the ABC. Interviewing some power co head who kept talking about keeping the grid " safe" in his very rehearsed and spin doctored replies. Was talking about some suburbs that were generating more power than they were using. I would expect no less. Some suburbs round here are virtually 100% housing. The next Suburb is virtually 100% industry. To look at things in a small and cherry picked example as if the feeder lines only did that one little are is just spin doctoring to push their biased cause.

    the practical limit without too much drop off in efficiency with transmission is around 2000 KM. That means that qld can supply Sydney and down to Melbourne. The SA gubbermint was bragging about no fossil fuel generation in their state but they are being propped up at night about 95% from coal power they get from Vic, NSW and Qld. To infer that you can't transmit power from one suburb to another is a complete and utter crock and as close to a lie as you can get by inference and innuendo if not an outright statement.

    Your work having 300 panels at say 250W is 75 KW ( Impressive!). If you take a very conservative generation rate of x4, that's 300Kwh a day your company is saving. If they were paying say . 20C Kwh, that's probably better than $20K a year saving. 3-4 year payback and they are in front. Why would the power cos want that? Forget about the emissions and CO2 savings we get rammed down our throats any other time especially when the sales guy is trying to persuade you to buy the more expensive appliance because it generated less co2, this is a threat to their business model. As such, they will say anything they can including lies if need be to protect their profits and returns to share holders.
    If your panels happen to be around 300W and you are around Sydney or north, where the generation is going to average 6x installed capacity, then you would be probably a lot closer to Saving $30K a year and a 2 Yr payback.

    Where I used to live there was a big pub a couple of suburbs away. They had their north and west roof covered with panels. I reckon about 30 KW worth. I used to wonder how much that took off their power bills. A huge amount I'd bet. With teh tight margins in pubs, I'd guarantee that made a big difference to the bottom line at the end of the year and gave the place a big shot towards much higher profitability. There were also a couple of factories in the area that utilized all their roof space to fit panels as well. For businesses who can use the power direct with no export ( maybe a little on the weekends) it would be a brilliant investment.

    Unless there is so much power being made it's being pushed back to the power station, there is NO problem at all. It does not matter if one area is generating 10X what it is using, it will be absorbed by areas where there is no generation and a lot of consumption. I would bet my backside that is never more than maybe 5 KM especially in the city and I doubt there is enough solar in country areas for there to be any backfeed down to a road / street level.

    The other crock with this is power will run both ways. They have to be able to supply the full power capacity of each property. In residential, that's 60A and 60A per phase if there is 3 phase connected. A lot of places are 80A but 60 is the minimum unless you are in an ancient place. 60A @ 230V is 14KW so unless every house in a street has a 15KW system on their Roof ( which probably 1 in 1000 homes has at best) there is no chance of overload.
    On the majority of the east coast, they limit you to 5KW on single phase so there is a huge buffer before anything becomes overloaded or " unsafe" .

    Any transformer that can't handle the backfeed is probably out of spec for current regulations now and most likely should have already been replaced. If there are any real problems with the transmission of the power rather than the problem being loss of Revenue, then they are easily fixed with new equipment that should have already been installed anyway.

    I think this will be something they publicise and try to brainwash the community with for a while..... until about the time Electric cars start getting a foothold. When they start sucking down power, then the grid is going to be struggling to keep up again and they won't even think of too much power, they will be trying to get every watt they can without having to replace and increase the capacity of the whole grid by about quadruple.

    The looming problem is going to be balancing demand. They will be cruising during the day but at night..... yeah, all that renewable clap trap is going to be going down in a smoking heap. They will be wanting to go back tot he coal they rubbished and probably pushing for nuke as well because there won't be any peak and off peak at night, it will be far more constant and if anything, the cheap time will be the daylight hours when there is plenty of solar not the night time when there is none.

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    When I used the term 'Poles and Wires', that was to describe the COMPANY that connects you to the 'Generator/Power Source' and you pay the bill too.
    I have felt that when such complaints have been made about 'over supply', it was more motivated by the amount of MONEY being lost than the possibilty of 'damaging' the Network.
    I stand unequivicably behind everything I say , I just dont ever remember saying it !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by gordon_s1942 View Post
    it was more motivated by the amount of MONEY being lost than the possibility of 'damaging' the Network.
    I would like to hear an explanation by a power company into what damage could be done specifically and the parameters that would have to be met for that damage to occur and similarly what they would classify as the grid becoming "Unsafe" and the required factors for that to happen.


    This was the vid I saw.


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    I work in a museum, the array is rated at 80 KW. Located in Townsville, we have climate controlled collection stores, cold rooms etc., plus comfort cooling, a 5 tonne lift and so on.

    The next toy we are going to have to install is a freezer that can maintain -80 degrees, yes that is minus eighty!
    Last edited by mi_tasol; 30-10-18 at 05:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi_tasol View Post
    I

    The next toy we are going to have to install is a freezer that can maintain -80 degrees, yes that is minus eighty!
    That will certainly chill the beer fast! :0)

    The place may not pull too much power through the day but sure is going to suck down the KW at night!

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    Yes the heaters attacking the humidity during the “warmer” months do hit the power hard. Some of my air handlers have 75 KW heater banks!
    Last edited by mi_tasol; 30-10-18 at 07:59 PM.

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    Suffice to say, there isn't and never will be an over supply of home solar generated power within at least a 10 KM radius of your Museum. :0)

    I was just watching another Vid from the US where the power cos are whining about the same problem. They talk like every single customer is generating more power than they can use. They never give any concession as to the 2 examples here that some places, a LOT of places suck down a huge amount of power.

    So much BS they go on with. Too much backfeed sends the line voltage high. OK, so what happens in winter when everyone comes home at 6 PM? Does the Line voltage fall through the floor and all the lights go dim?
    Well, gee wizz, no they don't. That's because the transformers are made to stabilise the voltage and pull it down from the High tension lines as needed and keep the voltage stable to the consumers.
    Soooo..... if it worked in reverse, the power would go from the low voltage back down teh lines to the transformers which would ramp it back up and send it to the KV lines where it wouldn't matter a bit..... has to do that. If it got that far and wasn't used up by another customer, Like a museum, business shopping centre, public building etc before it go there.
    The transformers are all inductive, it's AC so there is no Blocking diodes or anything else to stop it traveling both Directions which it does 50 Times a second being AC!!

    The other thing that gets me is the power cos go on about everyone being out during the day. They may not be at home but they don't leave the planet! They are probably at work... using computers or machines in buildings with lights running and AC going and other things that are not using power when the people are at home. If you look at time of use plans, they are most exy till about 2pm.... IE, after peak solar generation. That being the case, we can only assume that while generation is from solar is highest, consumption is then also .... otherwise why wouldn't they be giving you the cheap rate at midday when they claim there is too much solar input....??? Why is the power cheapest after that?Z

    They have also realised they have screwed up screwing consumers with TOU pricing. They hit you hard from about 5-8 PM. Right now, my 4KW west facing array is still pushing 2.5 KW on a clear day at 6PM. The north facing 9 KW array would be doing that or more. Oh dear. That'[s at least a good 4 months lost Revenue and probably a bit more on the up and down months. Probably one reason and the fact everyone is using timers and doing all they can after 8PM to minimise costs. That is what the power companys said to do when they brought this in and everyone complained. " Learn to manage your useage more wisely." What a pitty for them people did... Like really did.
    Of course then there were smartarses like me that took the off peak hot water off that and put it back on the mains solar fed circuit... and added a Voltage monitoring relay.
    When the voltage goes up a couple of Volts signifying the solar inverters are working, the hot water kicks in and uses my own free power instead of selling it back to the grid at .8C and then buying it back at night for 15 on off peak rate. Of course the newer inverters have this feature built in as well and there are add on devices you can get to do the same job.

    And of course with the grid damaging BS we have the inconvenient FACT that every GTI made has a high and low voltage cut, and frequency matching as well as having feedback throttling to keep the line voltage from going too High and keep the frequency in check. It's a design rule in ever country that the inverters have to comply to the electrical standards of the country they are used in.

    They shoot their own BS squarely in the foot with their own actions and behaviours. No need to argue, just undermine everything they say with their own information.

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    My west facing (faulty) 5 KW array generated 26 kWh yesterday, 23 of which went to the grid.

    Next to the museum, which is about 12 km from where I live, is a large aquarium that also has a large array, and again they still pull power from the grid.

    Just up the road from me a 148 MW array has just been installed (Ross River solar farm Townsville), so don’t tell me that my little 5KW array is upsetting the poor wires and transformers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mi_tasol View Post
    My west facing (faulty) 5 KW array generated 26 kWh yesterday, 23 of which went to the grid.
    Where I am ( Sydney) that would be a good output from a perfectly Functioning array.
    Your location explains the problem with the panels. They have been a HUGE problem in the tropical areas. Thousands of the things have had to be replaced. The new ones you get will be a later generation and the clock will start again on the whole system which is a good in for you.

    Just up the road from me a 148 MW array has just been installed (Ross River solar farm Townsville), so don’t tell me that my little 5KW array is upsetting the poor wires and transformers.
    Yeah, there are a few huge gaping flaws in what you point out.

    I looked at the farm website.

    First thing,
    " The solar farm will be ‘utility scale’ and have the capacity to generate 148 megawatts of clean renewable energy – enough to power over 54,000 homes."
    54000 Homes.
    Quick look at the 2016 Census says there are about 100K private dwellings in Townsville. Around 67,000 of them are free standing homes. So they are building a solar farm that is capeable of powering half the homes in the area even though the majority of them would be homes that have the potential to also be exporting the power to the grid they complain about.

    But it's not the ONLY solar farm in the area.

    Townsville solar has taken a leap ahead with the City Council has construction of a 400MW solar farm.The at Woodstock met environmental regulations and received the green-light yesterday.
    IF the 148 MW at Ross river will power 54,000 homes, a 400 MW plant would have to power about 146,000 homes meaning we now have enough power to supply double the amount of home in the area. OK, there are business and other places as pointed out that use power and may not have panels or have them and still use more power.
    And of course we have the homes with solar which according to the stats would be 500 homes producing around 25Mw of power.

    And another farm in the area...

    Haughton Solar Farm is expected to have a generating capacity of up to 500MW, enough to power approximately 170,000 homes.
    This will be 60 KM from townsville. It will power 170K homes. add that to the 25K mw the homes themselves are producing and we now have enough power to supply 4x the amount of homes in the area. And they are going to transmit this power at LEAST 60 KM. That's the width of the greater majority of Sydney. If they can pump it that far, how can there be an excess within the suburbs? Why isn't it being pumped even 10 KM to where it can be used??

    But there is still more.....
    The 124MW (AC) Sun Metals solar farm overtakes the 100MW Clare solar farm as the biggest in the state, and began exporting into the grid late on Wednesday.
    If we add that to the 100MW Clare farm 80KM away, that's another 224MW or 81,000 MORE homes supplied. 5x the amount of homes in the area.... given that's their measure.

    Stll, it HAS to be your 5kw array and the blokes down the street from you that's causing all the problems. Nothing to do with the hald a gigawatt and Millions of panels these farms have.

    I think it's pretty clear this grid Damage excuse is nothing but a bullshit overload and the only damage being done is to their profits and peoples Intelligence.

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