Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 33

Thread: GPS to stop working ?

  1. #1
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    49
    Thanks
    17
    Thanked 2 Times in 1 Post
    Rep Power
    195
    Reputation
    50

    Default GPS to stop working ?

    I read the following on Slashdot, about changes to the US GPS network.
    Anyone else know anything about this, or what effect it may have ?

    Older satnavs and such devices won't be able to use America's Global Positioning System properly after April 6 unless they've been suitably updated or designed to handle a looming epoch rollover. GPS signals from satellites include a timestamp, needed in part to calculate one's location, that stores the week number using ten binary bits. That means the week number can have 210 or 1,024 integer values, counting from zero to 1,023 in this case. Every 1,024 weeks, or roughly every 20 years, the counter rolls over from 1,023 to zero. The first Saturday in April will mark the end of the 1,024th week, after which the counter will spill over from 1,023 to zero. The last time the week number overflowed like this was in 1999, nearly two decades on from the first epoch in January 1980. You can see where this is going. If devices in use today are not designed or patched to handle this latest rollover, they will revert to an earlier year after that 1,024th week in April, causing attempts to calculate position to potentially fail. System and navigation data could even be corrupted, we're warned.

  2. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Lofty2 For This Useful Post:

    LeroyPatrol (09-05-19),Tiny (18-02-19)



Look Here ->
  • #2
    Shut your dog up!!
    Jma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Somewhere in the darkness...
    Posts
    509
    Thanks
    442
    Thanked 431 Times in 216 Posts
    Rep Power
    322
    Reputation
    8540

    Default

    Y2K was going to break the world they told us, will be interesting to see what happens with regards to this rollover, if anything.
    Wonder how many GPS's are still in use with firmware that old it hasn't been patched for this issue?
    Wouldn't be too many I'd imagine.

    I remember hearing some gossip a while ago about the new network protocols the GPS systems will be using breaking all the older GPS's.
    Apparently the original legacy frequency will still be broadcast & the only problem will be the older GPS's won't be able to take advantage of the extra features .

    The government is in the process of fielding three new signals designed for civilian use: L2C, L5, and L1C. The legacy civil signal, called L1 C/A or C/A at L1, will continue broadcasting, for a total of four civil GPS signals. Users must upgrade their equipment to benefit from the new signals.

  • The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Jma For This Useful Post:

    Lofty2 (18-02-19),Tiny (18-02-19)

  • #3
    Crazy Diamond
    Tiny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    64
    Posts
    6,391
    Thanks
    10,996
    Thanked 5,435 Times in 2,650 Posts
    Rep Power
    2155
    Reputation
    89037

    Default

    Thanks for the warning, looks like it should not actually be a problem & Sat Nav manufacturers have been aware of this since the first epoch rollover in 1999.

    A check at Garmin resulted in the following warning or nonevent notice for Aviation GPS
    I would think, therefore that their GPS firmware in all devices is capable of the rollover in time stamp.

    Aviation Alerts and Advisories
    Service Advisory 1905: GPS Rollover
    JANUARY 28, 2019 SERVICE ADVISORIES
    PRODUCTS AFFECTED:


    All Garmin aviation products are affected.


    ISSUE:


    On April 6, 2019 the week number broadcast by the GPS satellites will roll over. As a result of this event some GPS devices may recognize an incorrect date when powered on after April 6, 2019.


    After extensive testing, Garmin has determined there are no known issues with Garmin aviation devices as a result of the April 6, 2019 rollover date.


    Further testing is underway to check for future GPS time and date issues.


    PILOT ACTION:


    No action is necessary.


    I suspect that other major brands won't have a problem either.
    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

  • The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Tiny For This Useful Post:

    Jma (18-02-19),LeroyPatrol (09-05-19),Lofty2 (18-02-19)

  • #4
    Crazy Diamond
    Tiny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    64
    Posts
    6,391
    Thanks
    10,996
    Thanked 5,435 Times in 2,650 Posts
    Rep Power
    2155
    Reputation
    89037

    Default

    some more info for those with other systems that rely on Satellite time stamps.

    What’s the Key Issue?
    The Global Positioning System provides accurate timing information to many of our critical systems – power grid, communications, financial markets, emergency services, and industrial control to name a few. It also includes the ability to transmit the proper date and time to a receiver by supplying the receiver with the current week and the current number of seconds into the week. This allows the receiver to translate the date and time into a more typical format – day, month, year, and time of day.
    However, the field that contains the week number is a 10-bit binary number. This limits the range of the week number to 0 – 1023, or 1024 total weeks.
    GPS week zero started January 6, 1980. The 1024 weeks counter ran out and rolled over on August 21, 1999. The week counter then reset to zero, and it has been recounting ever since. The next time the counter will reach week 1023 and rollover to zero is on April 6, 2019.
    Party Like It’s 1999? Not
    Receivers must properly interpret that week number as the correct date, not 19.7 years into the past or future. To do this, receivers use various methods to ensure that they are providing the correct date. One common method is to use the firmware date as a reference. This works well if the receiver is new or is receiving firmware updates. It is also possible for the user to modify this reference date in some receivers.
    Another way is to shift that 1023 window with reference to some firmware or manufacture date within the receiver. Using this method, the problem could occur, but at a different date and year than the actual GPS rollover date.

    Should I Be Concerned?
    Because this it is the second time the GPS week rollover will occur, many receiver manufacturers have prepared for it, and newer receivers will continue to operate without issue.
    You should be concerned, though, if either of the following applies:

    • Receiver has been fielded for more than 10-15 years without firmware updates
    • Receiver is a core component of a critical timing system – ask yourself – what is the impact to my system if the GPS receiver stopped operating or put out wrong GPS or UTC information

    In these cases, we want to verify that an issue will not occur. At a minimum, we recommend consulting your receiver manufacturer to confirm that the issue has been fully tested and will not occur. Many manufacturers have already issued compliance statements, and we expect them to continue to do so over the next year, up until the event occurs. To be sure that your system will not experience any failures related to this issue, it is possible to test for this event using a . The requirements for the simulator are straightforward:

    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

  • The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Tiny For This Useful Post:

    Jma (18-02-19),Lofty2 (18-02-19)

  • #5
    Shut your dog up!!
    Jma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Somewhere in the darkness...
    Posts
    509
    Thanks
    442
    Thanked 431 Times in 216 Posts
    Rep Power
    322
    Reputation
    8540

    Default

    Lol, hope my el'cheapo Chinese device's Roms are equipped to handle this rollover...if not my Garmin might be the only one I own that still works

  • #6
    LSemmens
    lsemmens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Rural South OZ
    Posts
    10,585
    Thanks
    11,867
    Thanked 7,060 Times in 3,338 Posts
    Rep Power
    3153
    Reputation
    132572

    Default

    Now I know why I get lost all the time, My GPS is 1024 weeks out of date...........and here I was thinking it was because people kept telling me to get lost.....
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

  • #7
    Shut your dog up!!
    Jma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Somewhere in the darkness...
    Posts
    509
    Thanks
    442
    Thanked 431 Times in 216 Posts
    Rep Power
    322
    Reputation
    8540

    Default

    Tested all my devices, all of them still connect to satellites ok after this epoch rollover.
    The oldest one, a Garmin GPS 60's last firmware update was dated 2006 & it still works ok.

  • #8
    Administrator
    mtv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    19,893
    Thanks
    7,508
    Thanked 15,066 Times in 6,761 Posts
    Rep Power
    5647
    Reputation
    239305

    Default

    Victorian Country Fire Authority have lost all GPS function in their Tait radios and some other devices.

    A firmware upgrade is available to fix it but there are several thousand radios requiring the upgrade, which can't be done OTA.

  • The Following User Says Thank You to mtv For This Useful Post:

    Tiny (15-04-19)

  • #9
    Crazy Diamond
    Tiny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    64
    Posts
    6,391
    Thanks
    10,996
    Thanked 5,435 Times in 2,650 Posts
    Rep Power
    2155
    Reputation
    89037

    Default

    My old Garmins are all good.
    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

  • #10
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,433
    Thanks
    934
    Thanked 1,661 Times in 724 Posts
    Rep Power
    836
    Reputation
    32307

    Default

    Apparently not entirely without some adverse results:

    Y2K of GPS causes glitch grounding Bureau of Meteorology weather balloons

    A GPS clock rollover that experts predicted would have little impact because of years of advance notice has caused the grounding of the Bureau of Meteorology's (BOM) weather balloons.

    ........The ABC also contacted aircraft manufacturer Boeing which confirmed that the GPS clock rollover caused "a limited number of 787 airplanes" to display the wrong date, causing them to be temporarily grounded in China.

  • The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Thala Dan For This Useful Post:

    Lofty2 (17-04-19),Tiny (15-04-19)

  • #11
    Shut your dog up!!
    Jma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Somewhere in the darkness...
    Posts
    509
    Thanks
    442
    Thanked 431 Times in 216 Posts
    Rep Power
    322
    Reputation
    8540

    Default

    Surprising Tait products were affected by this, they've been around for a long time.

  • #12
    Administrator
    mtv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    19,893
    Thanks
    7,508
    Thanked 15,066 Times in 6,761 Posts
    Rep Power
    5647
    Reputation
    239305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jma View Post
    Surprising Tait products were affected by this, they've been around for a long time.
    Only the older models which haven't had the firmware updates are affected.

  • The Following User Says Thank You to mtv For This Useful Post:

    Jma (15-04-19)

  • #13
    Crazy Diamond
    Tiny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Tasmania
    Age
    64
    Posts
    6,391
    Thanks
    10,996
    Thanked 5,435 Times in 2,650 Posts
    Rep Power
    2155
    Reputation
    89037

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mtv View Post
    Only the older models which haven't had the firmware updates are affected.
    They must be old!
    My old Garmin ETrex Vista hand-held is 11 years old & hasn't had a software update since 2012. Maps on it's SD card have been updated though.
    When I turned it on after the epoch it showed a date of Feb 1999 for about 15 seconds until it had logged into enough sats, then it flicked straight to the correct Date & Time.
    Last edited by Tiny; 15-04-19 at 07:13 PM.
    Cheers, Tiny
    "You can lead a person to knowledge, but you can't make them think? If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.
    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

  • #14
    Administrator
    mtv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    19,893
    Thanks
    7,508
    Thanked 15,066 Times in 6,761 Posts
    Rep Power
    5647
    Reputation
    239305

    Default

    The CFA radios are TM9100 models.

    The GPS receivers in them are different to a dedicated GPS handheld or car navigator.

    The issue is that CFA use proprietary firmware in the radios, so they needed to roll out an update long before now.

    Perhaps they were thinking this wouldn't affect them, but it has.

    The radios are all due for replacement from next year anyway.... most likely going back to Motorola.... but, we digress.

  • #15
    Premium Lager

    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Age
    60
    Posts
    4,882
    Thanks
    1,635
    Thanked 2,711 Times in 1,230 Posts
    Rep Power
    1174
    Reputation
    40746

    Default

    so, did the world fall apart, once again, from this?

    Do we still know where we are?

    To tell the truth, I've been to busy fallowing my nav's directions to know.
    __________________________________________________ __
    Statistically, if you wait long enough, everything will happen!

  • #16
    Super Moderator
    enf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Canberra
    Age
    70
    Posts
    17,752
    Thanks
    16,816
    Thanked 34,961 Times in 9,058 Posts
    Rep Power
    13677
    Reputation
    644429

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by porkop View Post
    so, did the world fall apart, once again, from this?

    Do we still know where we are?

    To tell the truth, I've been to busy fallowing my nav's directions to know.
    If you're "fallowing" then you're at a farm and your GPS is f*cked.
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

  • #17
    Administrator
    mtv's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    19,893
    Thanks
    7,508
    Thanked 15,066 Times in 6,761 Posts
    Rep Power
    5647
    Reputation
    239305

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by porkop View Post
    so, did the world fall apart, once again, from this?

    Do we still know where we are?
    I'd say having a fire service not knowing exactly where to locate appliances/firefighters on a large fireground if they activate a distress alarm is a major issue.

  • The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to mtv For This Useful Post:

    hinekadon (16-04-19),Tiny (16-04-19),tristen (16-04-19)

  • #18
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    2,251
    Thanks
    527
    Thanked 1,857 Times in 894 Posts
    Rep Power
    881
    Reputation
    36714

    Default

    I used my Tom Tom GPS when coming up north last week and it was not working well at all.
    It was having a LOT of trouble finding the satellites and when it did it only seemed to be able to lok on for 30 sec to a min then lost them again.
    I got an email from Tom tom it may not be update able which I am extremely dissapointed about as the thing was given to me and has a LOT of sentimental value.
    Haven't had a chance to try and update it nor see if it was a one off but I doubt it. Never had any trouble with it like that before.

    I would guess it's about 6 yo , maybe a little more. I hope it can be updated because I would not like to have to put the thing in a drawer.

    Anyone else had any problem with normal GPS nav units?

  • #19
    LSemmens
    lsemmens's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Rural South OZ
    Posts
    10,585
    Thanks
    11,867
    Thanked 7,060 Times in 3,338 Posts
    Rep Power
    3153
    Reputation
    132572

    Default

    No wonder I get lost on the way from the lounge room to the kitchen! And here I was thinking that it was SWMBO calling out to me to do something for her.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

  • #20
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Sydney
    Posts
    1,703
    Thanks
    227
    Thanked 1,112 Times in 571 Posts
    Rep Power
    637
    Reputation
    20724

    Default

    Powered up a Garmin 255 from 2007 (12 years old) and its working without issue. Quick lock onto satellites and claiming 4m accuracy.

  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Bookmarks

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •