Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737

[fandtm666]

looks like it was the same with both crash's

Black box data shows 'clear similarity' between Ethiopia Airlines and Indonesia Lion Air crashes

[Uncle Fester]

Runaway Stabilizer




Process seems simple, if the pilots diagnosed it correctly
I guess with such a weird problem occurring so close after take off, they didn't have much time and maybe a lot of confusion.
As having stabilising issues, you probably would not think to disengage the Auto Stabilising

Many pilots have announced they have disengaged it when they had issues, its a memory item.

FFS, how about not having a runaway stabiliser in the first place?!

For all we know the pilots might have cut the electric trim and it still nose dived. I don't think the FDR even records those switches, so we might never know.

As I mentioned in an earlier post when your plane's heading is directly towards the centre of the earth the last thing on your mind is to mess around with the trim. It is a mechanical wheel that you have to keep turning and turning to get any response. It is designed for fine trim, not recovery of an out of control plane.
The column is the only proper way to deal with that but gets locked up!!!

I repeat this plane needs a complete makeover and not just a software patch.

[lsemmens]

Just remember, the plane hit the ground 6 minutes after take off. The first two minutes may have been normal. Then next probably caused the pilots to turn around so that leaves 3 minutes to decipher and resolve their problem. That is 180 seconds. It's probably taken me that long to compose this answer. Given the complexity of a modern aircraft. It would most likely have taken all of that to determine which instrument to believe and which control will compensate CORRECTLY to the erroneous report.

Think of yourself driving to an unfamiliar destination with your missus giving you directions from an unfamiliar street directory. We had a situation years ago, driving in an unfamiliar city, with a NAVMAN that wanted to take us down a one way street. No matter what we did it continued to bring us back to that street, AT THE WRONG END!!!! We had to ignore it for a good 10 minutes before it finally recalculated a route that avoided said street.

[ol' boy]

FFS, how about not having a runaway stabiliser in the first place?!

Well, that Run Away Stablizer list has been in print for 10years + (last updated 9th April 2007)
It bog standard 737 Memory List items, so it has NOTHING to do with the MAX only.

I think the major point here, is after the Lion Air Disaster in Indo, EVERY 737 pilot, not just the MAX type received a bulletin outlining the Cut-Out switches and what to do....

So as you say nomeat, they may have tried that and nothing happened.....
Seems likely, as the switches are right there, front and centre

Here is the Flash Card for 737 NG (printed 2014)




I wonder in that amount of time if they would be aware of the un-commanded inputs
Or were they chasing a fault or did they simply just not understand (koas of the moment type thing)


Or how did Boeing sneak the 737 MAX 8 passed the FAA for not needing addition type training?

[Thala Dan]

Another take on the issue:

The Best Analysis Of What Really Happened To The Boeing 737 Max From A Pilot & Software Engineer

The following tweets from Trevor Sumner, CEO of Perch Experience, of what really happened to the Boeing 737 Max, may be one of the best summaries of the events that led to the two recent airplane crashes, and also why Boeing's "software upgrade" response is a farce.

PS: Those who have a problem with articles sourced from Zerohedge should look away

[ol' boy]

Not really another take on the issue, i think that is what everyone has been saying since the Lion disaster
It just got reinforced with the Ethiopian crash

The software can be considered liable, because it never had a "Fail to Passive" output, that is what everyone is upset about.

[Uncle Fester]

Well, that Run Away Stablizer list has been in print for 10years + (last updated 9th April 2007)

It bog standard 737 Memory List items, so it has NOTHING to do with the MAX only.

I think the major point here, is after the Lion Air Disaster in Indo, EVERY 737 pilot, not just the MAX type received a bulletin outlining the Cut-Out switches and what to do....

So as you say nomeat, they may have tried that and nothing happened.....
Seems likely, as the switches are right there, front and centre

Here is the Flash Card for 737 NG (printed 2014)




I wonder in that amount of time if they would be aware of the un-commanded inputs
Or were they chasing a fault or did they simply just not understand (koas of the moment type thing)


Or how did Boeing sneak the 737 MAX 8 passed the FAA for not needing addition type training?

"Gasp and Hold" the trim wheel in both lists is BS when the plane is already on the shortest path to terrain!
Neither of the lists cover the situation here!
Neither of them mention a locked up control column.

With the 737 NGX expansion pack on my Prepar3d I can get it out of a nosedive at 9,000ft just barely in time with the trim. So it might theoretically possible.
Major difference is that I purposely put it into that dive so I was never 'out of control'. Therefore not a realistic simulation and we don't know the circumstances leading up to this.
Also the horizontal trim on my Saitek X52 Flight controller is just a small knob that I can turn about 150˚ almost instantly from end to end, not comparable with the action of a real stabiliser wheel.

One in the dive they would have had roughly only 10 seconds to adjust that wheel all the way and wait for the plane to respond, hardly possible in real flight.

[Uncle Fester]

Another take on the issue:

The Best Analysis Of What Really Happened To The Boeing 737 Max From A Pilot & Software Engineer





PS: Those who have a problem with articles sourced from Zerohedge should look away

A dodgy design with a software bandaid!

Well I already wrote that a week ago in this post:


...but good to see that others are now noticing this too.

[ol' boy]

"Gasp and Hold" the trim wheel in both lists is BS when the plane is already on the shortest path to terrain!
Neither of the lists cover the situation here!
Neither of them mention a locked up control column.

Shaker Stick would be on long before a locked up control column
Other pilots have managed to correct the situation

Agreed, that situation shouldn't be allowed to even happen, once again a fault with a non Fail to Passive output.

[alpha0ne]

I can just imagine those poor Ethiopian pilots frantically trying to find the relevant page in the manual, faaar*k me I have enough trouble reading a TV manual thats only a couple of pages, I'd imagine the planes manual would be just a little bit longer ??

I wonder who the donkey will be when the tail is finally pinned

[Uncle Fester]

Shaker Stick would be on long before a locked up control column

The planes were not stalling, the MCAS incorrectly plunged the plane into a nose dive. The MCAS responds when it decides there is a risk of stall ands starts pushing the nose down before it stalls. No stall, no stick shaker.

Other pilots have managed to correct the situation

There is no evidence that those pilots experienced the same situation. Other pilots reported nose down events when they switched the Autopilot ON. The MCAS only activates when the Autopilot is switched OFF.
So there is a lot going on here.
I stand by my claim that this aircraft needs a major makeover.

[ol' boy]

This is interesting

report says this is why only one AoA sensor was actually attached to the MAX8’s MCAS autopilot.

So?? No Redundancy? How was there an AoA conflict then? Maybe there wasn't.
Does explain a lot though... No Alarm would be given if the AP thought everything was ok...
Panicing Pilot with no idea why their nose keeps getting forced down

More:

[Uncle Fester]

Wow, so many issues now.
Only one sensor for this, I can only say deplorable if this is true.
MCAS stabiliser correction by 2.5˚ instead of the FAA approved 0.6˚ now puts me in a state of shock!
That means two corrections: full on nose dive.

And what about the airspeed? That is far more important to avoid a stall than the angle of attack and should have priority for any "decisions" with these automated systems.

[Tiny]

Well fark me dead, it took me 20 years to get over my fear of flying & to read this just sent me back.
Are these people that design these things as competent as they should be?
Doesn't appear so.

[ol' boy]

Until the Official Report comes out, we all just hearing Media whispers

But i guess it will be somewhere thereabouts the truth.
So many reports now, hard to know what is fact and what is made up.

I guess the people that KNOW, Boeing aren't really going to be opening up with information either.....
Given the legal battle they are about to fight
(there is an interesting interview out already with ex Boeing engineer, he obviously has no love for his former company, bagging out the 737 MAX build)

With SOOO much of the US Governments money involved here and so much at stake, i'm sure they are strategizing as hard as they can.

Facts can be manufactured right

[ol' boy]

Plane was saved by a passer by.....

As the Lion Air crew fought to control their diving Boeing 737 Max 8 jet, they got help from an unexpected source: an off-duty pilot who happened to be riding in the cockpit.

That extra pilot, who was seated in the cockpit jumpseat, correctly diagnosed the problem and told the crew how to disable a malfunctioning flight-control system and save the plane, according to two people familiar with Indonesia's investigation.

The next day, under command of a different crew facing what investigators said was an identical malfunction, the jetliner crashed into the Java Sea killing all 189 aboard.

And

[Uncle Fester]

It would have been the responsibility for all 3 pilots to report the incident and have the plane and it's sensors checked before further flights as this would have avoided the crash.
..or at least warn all the Lion air pilots about this.
Coming out with this 5 months later is disgusting.

Several times I have read now that the plane had multiple faults that were not repaired correctly.
Zero trust in any airline coming from that region but I had that long before these incidents.

[ol' boy]

One thing is for sure nomeat, there wouldn't be a pilot anywhere in the world that doesn't know about the Trim Cut-Out switches now
No Bulletin required! I think even Michael Schumacher has got the memo.

[fandtm666]

another instance the same just the day before but with a good outcome

[ol' boy]

More Details in the puzzle...

Following the Nov 6th 2018 release of the Boeing Bulletin regarding MCAS in the aftermath of the crash of the LionAir the airline did distribute the bulletin to their flight crew a number of days later following a reminder. Ethiopian Airlines had been equipped with one Boeing 737-700 NG simulator only when the first MAX aircraft were put into service, the first 737-8 MAX simulator was put into service mid January 2019. Only in March 2019 a trim runaway lesson was included in the NG and MAX training syllabus. Flight crew are scheduled to go through a simulator session every 6 months (as per industry standards), the accident flight crew may thus not yet have received training on a stabilizer trim runaway (in the NG or MAX Simulator).

The source added the B737 NG simulator was not able to reproduce different trim handling by both aircraft: on the NG aircraft automatic trim (e.g. by the SRS) could be counteracted by an (intuitive) elevator opposite control input (e.g. on a nose down trim a nose up elevator input would stop and disable the autotrim system) unless a double failure was inserted by the sim instructor whereas on the MAX the intuitive counter acting elevator input no longer stops the automatic trim in order to permit MCAS to work. The only means to disable automatic trim on the MAX is therefore the trim cutout switches (renamed PRI and B/U) below the throttle quadrant on the center console (same location as on the NG), which completely disables all electric trim (also via the trim switches at the controls) and leaves the crew with manual trim via the trim wheel only, so that crew needs to rotate the trim wheel nose up promptly to recover from a stabilizer nose down trim introduced by an automatic trim (e.g. by MCAS or other faults).

You can see where a lot of confusion could lie
As they always say, it is a series of events that causes a plane to fall out if the sky

This is concerning.....

US airlines are awaiting receipt of their first 737 Max simulators. American Airlines expects to receive a simulator by the end of 2019 and Southwest Airlines expects to receive the first of three simulators later this year.