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Thread: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737

  1. #121
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    Actually, the water bombers would not be as heavily used as passenger craft. Remember, they only take off once, their water is collected via a scoop as they fly over a body of water and the only time they need to land is to re-fuel which could be 12 or more hours later, and they only fly whilst fighting fires.

    Passenger craft, OTOH, are in constant use with several landings a day.
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    No 737 is going to pick up water on the fly

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Actually, the water bombers would not be as heavily used as passenger craft. Remember, they only take off once, their water is collected via a scoop as they fly over a body of water and the only time they need to land is to re-fuel which could be 12 or more hours later, and they only fly whilst fighting fires.

    Passenger craft, OTOH, are in constant use with several landings a day.
    Ummmm, I was talking about the new 737 Water bomber NSWRFS bought in August.
    It has to land to be Refilled. They can put 15K Litres in the thing in 10 Min. I have been watching it again today around the bargo area and up in the mountains. You can see it slow and decend for the drop and climb out and speed away back to Richmond. From what I can see it's been doing drops an returnng to land after taking off in as little as 20 min.
    Sometimes longer but that's what I have seen today. Probably don't have to refuel it too often but if they gave it a splash every time the reloaded it with retardant it could stay up all day easily.


    I was also reading about the sky cranes today. I have to say on the face of it they seem a better proposition. They hold 9500L of water and can scoop or pump it wherever they can find water in as little as 40 seconds. Would seem to me something you can deploy on the fire, reload it and potentialy be doing another drop 5-10 min later would be a lot more effective. Sure it's about 60% the capacity of the 737 but I'll bet they could lay a damn site more water down in a given time period than the tanker.

    I was reading the tanker can get anywhere in NSW in an hour. That's all well and good but then how many places are there it can be re loaded? If the thing has to fly even 30 Min each way, really knocks down it's effectiveness in my book.

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    Don't understand why we can't retrofit our retired Qantas 747s. They can hold up to 74,000 litres:


    Our last six 747-400 will be retired coming year

    Over the years Qantas have had 65 of them.
    Imagine 65x 747 Supertankers blanket bombing our fires, and when they are extinguished, blanket watering drought farmers fields with water from the coast.
    Actually doing something to fight climate change !
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  • #125
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    My apologies, I was aware of water bombers that can scoop and go, but did not check my facts. There are some fixed wing aircraft that can scoop and go but the 737 is not one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Don't understand why we can't retrofit our retired Qantas 747s. They can hold up to 74,000 litres:
    First problem I see is where are you going to land and refill the bastards?
    In NSW I think the only places you could get them in would be Sydney airport, Richmond, Nowra and Williamtown.
    Given 3 of the 4 are military, and all on the coast anyway, not going to be great for anything inland. Other states would probably be confined to 2 airports in the main leaving a long flight and return time for a lot of areas.

    The choppers are exy both to buy and I presume run ( but probably not more than a 747) and although they would hold a fraction of the water, they can literally pick up 500M from the fire if water is available in a dam, river or pool making turn around time very short and also have the advantage of pin point accuracy rather than a more blanketed attack with the jets.

    Seems to me a bit like machine guns. Not just a matter of how big the holes are you can put in a target but how many hits you can get on that target.
    If a fire is burning in the middle of the state and the 747 has to fly 30 Min each way, pretty sure in most cases a skycrane could have laid down just as much water in the time it took to get the 747 back.

    The 74K Litres the 747 can carry is impressive though, 5x that of what the 737 can carry. Funny thing is they can carry about 180K litres of fuel.
    If they halved the fuel tanks and put water in them they could pump from the wing tanks to the bombing tank, then they would really be something.

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  • #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    The 74K Litres the 747 can carry is impressive though, 5x that of what the 737 can carry. Funny thing is they can carry about 180K litres of fuel.
    If they halved the fuel tanks and put water in them they could pump from the wing tanks to the bombing tank, then they would really be something.

    Good idea about the fuel tanks. Practically no job to retrofit. Tanks are already separated.
    Fuel dump is available, just need a compressor to increase the pressure as gravity fed you only get up to 2000l per minute.

    As for distance from larger airports, pretty much all fires in NSW could be reached in 30-40 mins flight time from Sydney or Brisbane.
    They are using a leased DC10 that also needs long runways.
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    The DC 10, the Avro and the 737 were all flying over here the other day low enough to take photos of.
    They are also using a C130 that carrys as much as a 747 but uses a runway half a mile shorter. With a smaller load it would probably be able to use additional regional airports but I don't know the logistics of filling the thing and what support facilities would be needed for that. I imagine filling them with water or retardant isn't just a matter of hooking them to a fire Hydrant.

    I still think the choppers with the ability to fill from any nearby water source has a lot of benifits.

    I wonder if the 737 has any other modifications like stronger landing gear or larger flaps for better climb aways or things like that?
    Sure is something to see a big jet that low over the trees and pulling out. Seems a big plane just to carry 15K L of water though. I have 5 Ibc's in my yard for water tanks. The fact you could only load them 3x onto a big plane like that and still have all that space shows how heavy water is and how really limited the plane is capacity wise. A semi tanker holds 40K L .
    The small water delivery trucks round here are all 15K L .
    40kL wouldn't be enough to give my yard a good watering atm.

  • #129
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    I know .....using logic/common sense is verbatim these days, not to mention the insane greenies would lynch me, but wouldn't it be cheaper to just spend the $$$$ they currently pay for water bombers to clear the fallen buildup and put in more/wider fire breaks ??

    runs and hides under the bed !!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha0ne View Post
    I know .....using logic/common sense is verbatim these days, not to mention the insane greenies would lynch me, but wouldn't it be cheaper to just spend the $$$$ they currently pay for water bombers to clear the fallen buildup and put in more/wider fire breaks ??

    runs and hides under the bed !!!!

    Not trying to extinguish fires is really a dumb idea.
    If you just let it all burn, spot fires will jump every fire break. Up here we had them 5km away from the main fire.
    You can try to guide fires with breaks although more with back burning and the fire brigade and volunteers are certainly flat out doing that but not always with success.

    Also fires this size create dry thunderstorms where the lightning can hit everywhere.

    Of course wider breaks around buildings and built up areas always make sense and shouldn't have costed that much but should have have to been in place before these fires broke out.

    If your bed is made out of asbestos and wear a proper gas mask with oxygen supply you have a good chance of survival
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 22-12-19 at 08:08 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by alpha0ne View Post
    I know .....using logic/common sense is verbatim these days, not to mention the insane greenies would lynch me, but wouldn't it be cheaper to just spend the $$$$ they currently pay for water bombers to clear the fallen buildup and put in more/wider fire breaks ??

    runs and hides under the bed !!!!
    I think you will always need fire fighting equipment BUT, your over all sentiment is spot on.
    The last thing my mate said in an email to me was he was worried about his place if a fire came because the council wouldn't let him clear the bush back enough. When a fire came less than a week later, he lost his house.

    Another mate up the road whom had cleared the bush back at the place he bought not so long ago had no trouble defending his place and the RFS camped there because they basically wrote off the adjoining properties as a lost cause before the fire even got there. having clearance makes ALL the difference.

    After this haloucaust I think there will be a much different approach to clearing. I can't see a lot of councils being too keen to enforce fines or give people grief after what has happened. Public opinion will cruicify them and well over run the green concerns.
    Looking at the wider picture, WTF does a bit of clearing matter anyway? Over a Million HECTARES have been burnt and hundereds of homes ( 700?) Plus lives lost.
    Using the old Bullshit excuse of " What if everyone cleared around their homes?" what would that mean? The loss of 1000 Ha of trees, Maybe?
    Even if it were 10,000 acres, it pales into insignificance of the amount of bush lost and the amount of bush that is out there anyway.

    The current regs of 10 M for trees and 50M for scrub is a joke. Look at how ferocious these crowning fires are and tell me that 10M clearance to a home is going to do Jack shit. Needs to be 100M for everything. That's just to have a chance against the fire itself, then you just have to worry about the ember attack.

    OTOH, the human savings of clearing a bit of bush on so many levels of grief, ruined lives and financial cost could be immeasurable. Clearly there isn't the shortage of Fking trees that the green washed want to make out and loosing some to protect peoples homes and lives is a worth while trade off.

    The other thing that makes all this non clearing bullshit a laughing stock is the fact they have no problems at all of dozing hundreds of acres just around here to put in these new packed in slums of the future housing estates. same with solar farm sites and other development.
    There is a quid in it for Gubbernmints and councils so whenever there is a buck on the table, there is never a problem.

    A lot of these water bombing aircraft are not so much for putting out fires but protecting property.
    My mate that had the fire at his place said there is no way places near him would have survived without them. They can dump water near or on a home and it goes out and the place is saved. It's that effective. That said, there is only a certain level of fire they can extinguish. I was reading how above a certain intensity, the water evaporates or just won't extinguish the fire and anything wetted quickly relights. From footage I have seen it's easy to Imagine you would have to be dropping 1000l Sqm to have any effect. Haven't done any fire fighting of consequence but I have used a 3/4 Hose on fire pump and it's not just a matter of hitting the murning material and it goes out. Even I have seen you do have to put plenty of water on places before it won't smoulder and re ignite.

    They did defend the homes at the edge of Sydney with bombers and covered homes in pink retardant which I read some dropkicks were later complaining about. Wouldn't give a fk what colour my house was if it meant the difference between it still being there or not but some people....
    Don't see what the problem is anyway, stuff washes straight off, I saw footage of the fire brigade coming in the next day and doing that for them anyhow.
    Just can't please some people these days, especially the stuck up entitled snobs. Should get the names of the people that complained and if they are still there next time the fires come, stiff shit fella, you are on your own this time as we don't want to upset you by making your house pink.
    We'll let it turn black instead as that seems to be what you prefer.

    I do think we need a LOT more fire fighting aircraft as so many I'm watching around Sydney and NSW have been brought in from the states and Canada. OTOH, How many aircraft can you afford to have sitting round doing nothing for 6-8 Months? Logical idea as we seem to have the biggest fires in the world would be for us to won them and lease them out to other countries.

    On the 3rd hand, after all this is over, I can't see there being fires like this for at least another 10 years. The fuel load takes time to build up and it's going to take a while for vast areas to recover let alone get to the state its in now. A lot will also depend on the rain. If we get a wet period there won't be a lotof fires anywhere and if we don't a lot of the bush is going to be very slow to recover anyway.

    I wonder how much wild life we will have after its all over. The one thing that keeps being repeated is how fast these fires come. Birds might be able to get away but nothing else much would have a hope in hell. Thing then is, what are so many of the birds going to eat afterwards when all the small creatures they live on are gone.

    I don't think many of us realise the full implications of whats happening at the moment and realistically, there is no way we can.

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    Boeing, you're going from BAD to WORSE!!!

    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!

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    737 not dead ?? slowly slipping back into service covid 19 sneak behind covid announcements etc

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    Was to be expected, Covid delayed it first but now I only saw a small notice in media of their clearance last November:


    Most PPL wouldn't notice the difference between the NG and the MAX and it is now just being called 737-8 instead.

    So lets hope they will change more that just the name on ALL the EXISTING aircraft:
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    On December 3, 2020, made a demonstration flight for journalists to explain the FAA-required modifications, to regain public trust before its first commercial flight expected on December 29.Worldwide, the first airline to resume regular passenger service was Brazilian low-cost , on December 9, 2020.
    Mighty quick those Brazilians, I say.
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    I will never fly on one of those things. A passenger airliner should be able to maintain level flight without a computer correcting its instability.

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    Stabilisers are always being controlled with the computer to correct imbalance with load but I agree at least the engines should be placed so that they don't change the angle of attack when you change the thrust and therefore requiring even more reliance on the software.
    I wonder if pilots are trained to fly and land this pig with pure manual control of the horizontal stabiliser in an emergency.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    I wonder if pilots are trained to fly and land this pig with pure manual control of the horizontal stabiliser in an emergency.
    Now your just being silly M8, thats what youtooob is for

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