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Thread: Ethiopian Airlines: 'No survivors' on crashed Boeing 737

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    If nothing else, the ‘Air Crash Investigations’ series has instilled that in the majority of cases it is pilot (or human) error that is the ultimate cause of a crash.

    While the MAX may be found to have some inherent fault, the one thing these incidents seem to have in common is relatively junior pilots in charge, or at least pilots with little experience on the craft they are flying (being such a new craft), without having ever received proper training or instruction on how to fly that aircraft.

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    Quote Originally Posted by peteramjet View Post
    If nothing else, the ‘Air Crash Investigations’ series has instilled that in the majority of cases it is pilot (or human) error that is the ultimate cause of a crash.

    While the MAX may be found to have some inherent fault, the one thing these incidents seem to have in common is relatively junior pilots in charge, or at least pilots with little experience on the craft they are flying (being such a new craft), without having ever received proper training or instruction on how to fly that aircraft.
    That seems to be the problem
    Cut Throat industry where every cent is counted.
    Taking Pilots out of Aircraft for Sim Training or Re Typing costs money
    And i dare say some of these less economic countries takes a few short cuts to try and catch up with the rest of the world....

    In saying that, some comments from pilots are eye opening!

    In America guys get a 737NG rating with only 6 sim sessions of 4 hours. Seen it. Done it. They don't understand that some airlines like LH, China Eastern etc... have very long and intensive training for the low hour pilots. At China Eastern Cadets do 23 sim sessions of 6 hours and then hundreds hours of line training.
    Still, hard to imagine, after this many years of flight and air disasters and corrective measures and learning... Things like this can still happen?
    Last edited by ol' boy; 21-03-19 at 08:09 AM.
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    I see the MCAS acronym has taken on some new meanings online.....

    Must Crash Aircraft Soon or Make Crash Automatic System
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    This report seems to confirm that in Lion Air crash but it is certainly wrong to claim it is the pilots fault when they were not informed how to tame this unruly beast:



    The report also confirms what I said above about the former pilots not reporting the trouble they had with it to:
    [QUOTE]But they did not pass on all of the information about the problems they encountered to the next crew, the report said./QUOTE]

    That negligence I claim is indeed pilots fault and they should be partly to blame fro the crash.
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    As much as this guy covers a lot of what we already suspect, he does add some interesting points
    (Oh, he is also an American and will chew your ear off telling you how good he is)

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    Fascinating turn of events and interesting how he was treated by airport staff


    Orders being canceled

    Indonesian airline Garuda said Friday that it's canceling a multibillion-dollar order for Boeing's 737 Max 8 passenger jet after the plane was involved in two deadly crashes in less than five months.

    "Our passengers have lost confidence to fly with the Max 8," Garuda spokesperson Ikhsan Rosan told CNN.
    The Indonesian carrier ordered 50 of the planes in 2014 for $4.9 billion. It has taken delivery of one of them but has now sent a letter to Boeing (BA) saying it no longer wants to receive the remaining jets on order, Ikhsan said.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 22-03-19 at 09:11 PM.
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    Default Airbus not much safer

    Last edited by ol' boy; 23-03-19 at 05:37 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    I fully agree to what he means that the human pilot should never be the number 2 pilot.

    However in the case of QF 72 the pilots appeared to have stabilised the aircraft quickly and were able to respond to this unexpected fault intuitively which was definitely not the case for the MAX.
    A bit more background info about that "Free fall" incident:


    Being more of a Hardware person, this has been my pet slogan for decades:
    Software is only as good as what the coders thought of when they programmed it.

    The problem here, as we get more more dependant on automation, the software component has become an obscure, complex AI monster that no single person can oversee anymore.
    Software glitch has become a very common excuse for random failures everywhere now and are often left unsolved.

    As long as the human can ALWAYS interact intuitively I don't really have a problem with that.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 23-03-19 at 10:21 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post

    However in the case of QF 72 the pilots appeared to have stabilised the aircraft quickly and were able to respond to this unexpected fault intuitively which was definitely not the case for the MAX.
    Having 37,000 feet under your ass probably had a bit to do with it, but as you say, control was regained in 600ft. Thats seems pretty good.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 23-03-19 at 11:01 AM.
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    Now US Investigators have come out saying it was a "Bird Strike" that ultimately brought the Boeing 737 Max down

    Hmmmm, fancy a US Aviation Investigative team coming to that conclusion about an American Owned Aviation company




    U.S. aviation officials think a bird strike is the likely culprit in what led to erroneous sensor data fed to the anti-stall system in the Ethiopian crash, the person said. Ethiopian Airlines has said, however, that a preliminary crash investigation report showed “no evidence of any foreign object damage” such as a bird strike, to the sensor.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 22-05-19 at 07:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    Now US Investigators have come out saying it was a "Bird Strike" that ultimately brought the Boeing 737 Max down
    They may end up being right about a bird strike, but the fact would remain that there was only one sensor feeding such a critical automatic component of the aircraft, which means Boeing is still well and truely in the naughty corner.

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    Must have been a lot of bird strikes precisely hitting the pitot tube, eh?
    The Indonesian one happened on the day before their crash as well, or were they flying without knowing their airspeed the whole time?

    Gotta love the shareholders, all good now.
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    On a different vein, these aircraft have all been out of service for while now
    Has to be costing some coin.... Wonder if the customers have been making their repayments or if they are all in conflict with Boeing?
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    Default When Will Boeing 737 Max Fly Again?

    Its been a long time out of service, some airlines have pushed back its return until next year now

    Next question, who will reintroduce them first and will people book to fly on them?


    In July, Boeing offered $100 million over several years as an “initial outreach” to support the families of victims and others affected by the two crashes.
    There is legal damages claims in for both 737 MAX aircraft crashes of $1 Billion dollars.
    This is from families of the victims....

    I guess the planes themselves were insured

    It's been 5 months and 23 days (since first grounding on March 10, 2019) of the 737 MAX
    Europe not taking Boeings word for it on air worthiness

    Last edited by ol' boy; 06-09-19 at 04:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' boy View Post
    will people book to fly on them?
    Is there a simple way to find out what variety of plane flies on your selected route?

    Used to be easy back in the days of the ABC tomes.
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' boy View Post
    Its been a long time out of service, some airlines have pushed back its return until next year now

    Next question, who will reintroduce them first and will people book to fly on them?




    There is legal damages claims in for both 737 MAX aircraft crashes of $1 Billion dollars.
    This is from families of the victims....

    I guess the planes themselves were insured

    It's been 5 months and 23 days (since first grounding on March 10, 2019) of the 737 MAX
    Europe not taking Boeings word for it on air worthiness

    Question will insurances be convinced to insure these planes?
    Europe not taking Boeing's word on airworthiness, may be 'coincidently' in interest of Airbus Industries.

    I think what has been lost in theses discussion is that the MAX has a design issue:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wiki
    The Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law was introduced on the 737 MAX to mitigate the aircraft's tendency to pitch up because of the aerodynamic effect of its larger, and heavier, and more powerful CFM LEAP-1B engines and nacelles.
    So while it is acceptable for a fighter jet to rely on software to keep it stable, maybe not so much on a passenger jet, just my humble opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Question will insurances be convinced to insure these planes?
    And we have a winner !!

    Insurance companies dictate how do damn near everything these days, thats one of the reasons why its so expensive building anything these days

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    Boeing Cease production of the 737 Max.
    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' boy View Post
    Boeing Cease production of the 737 Max.
    "O"
    Or are they going to re badge them and call them 737 Min

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    Was just thinking, The new Fire liner water bomber is a 737 . Don't know if they are the same type as I know there can be many different variants of the same aircraft but I'd like to know.
    Had a look and can't fine much detail about it other than the typical feel good media releases.

    Would be most unfortunate if a major purchase to help people Crashed and burned itself.
    Given they have shut the 737 program down ( Ouch! That has to hurt the share price!) and they had such a limited run, I wonder how they will go for parts in the future?

    The thing was flying over here the other day about every 10 min going back and forth to the fires down the road and was certainly being put to use and adding up the hours but more so, the takeoffs and landings which I think is a major factor in service life. Mightn't have a lot of air time compared to normal airline use but the take-off and landing count will be off the charts.

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