Violence and the Koran

[DB44]

Yes, exactly, and what you mention here is actually what true Christianity is all about.

I will upset the apple cart for many so-called "churches" by saying this, but Christianity is NOT a religion. It's a way of life, being a certain type of person.

Most atheists are Christians without even knowing it. It's true.

There are many churches (especially a very famous and very large global one from long ago) that try to make Christianity a religion. They are totally missing the point.

It's like this -- religion is where people "try to be something" by their own doing, Christianity is when you accept "I already am" in the way it is supposed to be, which the individual does not even understand in the beginning but eventually does -- that comes with wisdom, age, etc.

The "something" that religions try to be is of their own creation/definition, and is invariably not worth pursuing as it is simply from a human perspective according to human standards. A good example is how they pursue earthly power over others, at least what they perceive as being powerful -- e.g. being able to take others' lives, tell them what to do, take their money -- self-enrichment, being dominant, etc.

Christianity is believing in something greater than all of that, what is above that (all the things that make you powerful w.r.t. being on earth). You trust in God to guide you because you, as a human with limited knowledge, cannot "see" or understand what this greater something is. But that's OK, because it is simply enough to know that it is there, however.

This greater something is what leads people to compassion, wisdom, empathy for others, etc. These qualities are more powerful than being able to wage wars for example, as they create a whole other human society, rather than just destroy societies.

Destruction is easy, construction is the more difficult one, but is worth it.

When you are a Christian, you no longer need to pursue, fight, prove yourself, submit, and all those things. The sacrifices you do make (e.g. time or money) is well within your capacity and is something you WANT to do, and is for a greater cause that ultimately takes your society forward.

In real Christian households, nobody is forced into anything. You have free will. So, if you ever find yourself behind a church pew, a young boy, kneeling in front of a naked priest who is telling you to "go ahead", that is definitely not Christianity.

A lovely utopian post but unfortunately not an accurate one. I am not aware of a single Christian Church which would accept your definition of Christianity. What you describe is essentially a Christian moral code without the need for Christ, and a vague concept of the existence of some sort of higher power which is good but not the Christian God. Several hundred years ago you would have run a severe risk of being burnt at the stake for heresy.

[tristen]

I rarely venture into this section of the forum, as I have found that discussion, on some occasions, can be heated, unduly biased and also disrespectful.

As is often the case in many discussions involving religion, there is information and misinformation, fact and falacy, reason and emotion.

My contribution in the present discussion is to recommend two books, which I have found to be scholarly, well-written, and easily understood.

The first is Basic Christianity by John RW Stott (now deceased) and the second is The Third Choice (Islam, Dhimmitude and Freedom) by Dr Mark Durie, Associate Fellow at the Middle Eastern Forum.

For those who might find Durie's book to be a little heavy going, there are also a number of Youtube presentations featuring him in debates regarding Islam.

A good introductory lecture can be found at .

I hope that these two excellent sources will help to clarify the topic(s) under discussion.

[DB44]

Thanks Tristen. I actually read the Durie book a few years ago. For those who have not the third choice of the title refers to those defeated who don't choose death or conversion to Islam to live in a state somewhere between second class citizens and slaves. I seem to vaguely recall that this choice is a courtesy extended only to so-called Peoples of the Book, meaning Christians and Jews.

I have not read nor even heard of Basic Christianity prior to your post. Here is a link to the author's entry in Wikipedia:



I doubt I will get to this one. I did read some Richard Swinburne years ago when I briefly took more of an interest.

[irritant]

A lovely utopian post but unfortunately not an accurate one. I am not aware of a single Christian Church which would accept your definition of Christianity. What you describe is essentially a Christian moral code without the need for Christ, and a vague concept of the existence of some sort of higher power which is good but not the Christian God. Several hundred years ago you would have run a severe risk of being burnt at the stake for heresy.

Yes, you are right, no doubt. Remember when Christ preached love instead of greed, compulsion, power and more that was the mainstay of religion of the time -- they killed Him!

The church won't accept it? Well, then they are missing the point, and still trying to cling to power via religion (which is why I don't attend anymore). Yes, I am most certainly speaking of the "Christian God" who is God, the one and only one God.

It is not a moral code, that's the point. You are guided by Christ. The moral code would be the tablets of stone in the old testament, the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden.

They appear good to fulfil, but ultimately "kill" you. You "eat" their "fruit" and you "die". The "fruit" looked "good to eat". The devil said to Jesus "turn these stones into bread". When you believe in a purpose greater than simply trying to fulfil the "code", you exceed it automatically. Yes, you cannot see that "bigger thing", so you let God show you what path to take to fulfil it. It is why you were designed the way you are.

You do so through service. Your unique ability fulfils the lives of others. No, it is not being a slave/servant to others.

People keep being miserable because they keep going against their inner being! You are fighting yourself, for what?

It is only my opinion of course, but I don't agree with anyone who takes the bible (or other text) literally. It is made plain that Jesus spoke in story form (parables), rich in metaphors.

And it is a metaphor in a metaphor in a metaphor. The whole bible in its entirety mirrors passages within it, the whole story explains passages. This is another thing I have against most churches and priests -- they keep quoting verses in isolation! So you have a photographic memory and you can memorize verses -- good for you. Very impressive. When these people knock on my door, I chase them. They know every word, but don't even know the message, so what's the point?

Back to metaphors -- you have the "weeds" that overgrow a garden, but a "reaper with good judgement" that is able to choose the "good crop" from among them.

The bible has been written in such a way for this purpose. He who has wisdom will interpret it productively, and it will be a treasure trove of information and eternal happiness. He who chooses to see it another way will twist its meanings and plunge into a life of despair, servitude to a false "god" and eternal confusion as to what to do next. As the Lord says, truly it is better to get rid of something thus, than keep it and make your life miserable (not an exact quote, but you get the point). This would explain the happiness of atheists, who decided "stuff it all, I don't believe in it" -- the atheist is WISE! Wiser than most Christians.

Why believe in something and try to fulfil a goal that makes you miserable? Just be who you are already. You don't know how significant that is because you are not all-knowing. Who knows, a simple smile at someone might be the most powerful tool ever, we cannot know because we don't know.

I truly believe "sin" is when we are no longer ourselves and we are led astray by something to become someone else. If I may liken it to a computer system, it would be akin to a corrupt file corrupted by a virus.

Like these files, we have been created to perform most wonderful and powerful things, crucial functions only we can do, and we find it easy (these would be "gifts"). Yes, you have to programme something to do what it must, but once you have, it does its thing. If you programme it incorrectly, you end up with a corrupt file.

We begin to find difficulty and unhappiness in life when someone else decides we should rather have a different function. This is where many "religions" and even, yes, "churches" come in.

Like an infected PC, we end up with a messed-up world, full of unhappy, angry, hateful people. You are unhappy because inside your soul is busy being killed, and crying out for you to stop.

I mean, it should be a no-brainer. If something makes you feel so uncomfortable that it feels like you are going against every fibre in your being doing it, why follow it? Only strong programming will let that happen.

And, yes, we can laugh at religions, but nowadays our very own backyard is no better. I am truly worried about the level of programming I see in our Western society today, by stuff like the media and the "false gods"/idols (Hollywood, etc.). We always think we are wiser than ever before, but when I look at our young people, ah man...

[DB44]

@Dr_Mohs. Thanks for sharing your own philosophy of life. We certainly agree so far as Churches are concerned. I was brought up Church of England and marched off to Sunday School every week where, as I got older, I drove my "teachers" mad with continual questions. At around the age of 10 I decided I was an agnostic, which I remain. It is a miracle that we are even here and self-aware, be it the result of natural physical processes or an intelligent creator. I don't know the answer and therefore adopt the scientific posture of scepticism. The only way I can see myself becoming a believer is through some personal experience, which I could not logically expect others to accept. I don't know, and basically I don't think anyone else does either. I find the idea of an omnipotent omnibenevolent omnipresent etc. God logically indefensible though of course faith, not logic, is the cornerstone of most beliefs.

I would love to believe that there is life beyond death and a purpose to existence other than simply experiencing it. I have some hope, if you like, but not faith.

[Uncle Fester]

Yes, you are right, no doubt. Remember when Christ preached love instead of greed, compulsion, power and more that was the mainstay of religion of the time -- they killed Him!

The church won't accept it? Well, then they are missing the point, and still trying to cling to power via religion (which is why I don't attend anymore). Yes, I am most certainly speaking of the "Christian God" who is God, the one and only one God.

It is not a moral code, that's the point. You are guided by Christ. The moral code would be the tablets of stone in the old testament, the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden of eden.

They appear good to fulfil, but ultimately "kill" you. You "eat" their "fruit" and you "die". The "fruit" looked "good to eat". The devil said to Jesus "turn these stones into bread". When you believe in a purpose greater than simply trying to fulfil the "code", you exceed it automatically. Yes, you cannot see that "bigger thing", so you let God show you what path to take to fulfil it. It is why you were designed the way you are.

You do so through service. Your unique ability fulfils the lives of others. No, it is not being a slave/servant to others.

People keep being miserable because they keep going against their inner being! You are fighting yourself, for what?

It is only my opinion of course, but I don't agree with anyone who takes the bible (or other text) literally. It is made plain that Jesus spoke in story form (parables), rich in metaphors.

And it is a metaphor in a metaphor in a metaphor. The whole bible in its entirety mirrors passages within it, the whole story explains passages. This is another thing I have against most churches and priests -- they keep quoting verses in isolation! So you have a photographic memory and you can memorize verses -- good for you. Very impressive. When these people knock on my door, I chase them. They know every word, but don't even know the message, so what's the point?

Back to metaphors -- you have the "weeds" that overgrow a garden, but a "reaper with good judgement" that is able to choose the "good crop" from among them.

The bible has been written in such a way for this purpose. He who has wisdom will interpret it productively, and it will be a treasure trove of information and eternal happiness. He who chooses to see it another way will twist its meanings and plunge into a life of despair, servitude to a false "god" and eternal confusion as to what to do next. As the Lord says, truly it is better to get rid of something thus, than keep it and make your life miserable (not an exact quote, but you get the point). This would explain the happiness of atheists, who decided "stuff it all, I don't believe in it" -- the atheist is WISE! Wiser than most Christians.

Why believe in something and try to fulfil a goal that makes you miserable? Just be who you are already. You don't know how significant that is because you are not all-knowing. Who knows, a simple smile at someone might be the most powerful tool ever, we cannot know because we don't know.

I truly believe "sin" is when we are no longer ourselves and we are led astray by something to become someone else. If I may liken it to a computer system, it would be akin to a corrupt file corrupted by a virus.

Like these files, we have been created to perform most wonderful and powerful things, crucial functions only we can do, and we find it easy (these would be "gifts"). Yes, you have to programme something to do what it must, but once you have, it does its thing. If you programme it incorrectly, you end up with a corrupt file.

We begin to find difficulty and unhappiness in life when someone else decides we should rather have a different function. This is where many "religions" and even, yes, "churches" come in.

Like an infected PC, we end up with a messed-up world, full of unhappy, angry, hateful people. You are unhappy because inside your soul is busy being killed, and crying out for you to stop.

I mean, it should be a no-brainer. If something makes you feel so uncomfortable that it feels like you are going against every fibre in your being doing it, why follow it? Only strong programming will let that happen.

And, yes, we can laugh at religions, but nowadays our very own backyard is no better. I am truly worried about the level of programming I see in our Western society today, by stuff like the media and the "false gods"/idols (Hollywood, etc.). We always think we are wiser than ever before, but when I look at our young people, ah man...

Such a shame you ruined an otherwise excellent post with that last sentence of ignorant generalisation.
These generalisations are the reason why we(the world) have all the misunderstandings.
Rather than blaming age, race, religion, country, etc how about looking at the individuals who are responsible.

And when I was young I am pretty sure I had less awareness of what is going on in the world than 'our' kids do.
Sure I spent most of my time reading science books and taking everything apart and building new things out of them but I was definitely guilty of ignorance on many other matters. My peers only differed by their interest mainly about sport.

My 12y/o can code and is also not that bad at sport but I was surprised about his knowledge in basic Psychology.

[DB44]

@nomeat. My experience is that people are people. Some in each generation like to tear their hair out over later generations. In each generation human nature remains the same. It is only the environment that is different. And a big part of human nature, adult or child, is that we need to make our own mistakes and don't often learn from the mistakes of others. I think this is one reason why adults grow so frustrated when children don't follow the advice that we give them. Our advice is often based on our own mistakes, and it is hard watching them make the same mistake themselves when the resulting pain could have been avoided had they simply listened. The children I know are all growing up very nicely indeed.

[george65]

Such a shame you ruined an otherwise excellent post with that last sentence of ignorant generalisation.

Here we go again with the indignation of anyone suggesting your kids are the same as anyone elses.
Sound like the typical parent at school that still believes their kid is a perfect angel when they are caught red handed doing something. Spose some people never loose the rose coloured glasses or ever let their kids off the apron strings.

In their minds anything not a glowing endorsement of a younger generation applies to everyone else s kids and their are the exception to the rule and are perfect in each and every way.

Seen this 100 times on the nightly news where some kid gets arrested for something when they already have a record as long as your arm and the parents stand there wailing " But he's a good boy, never did anything wrong!" No ones calling anyones kids criminals here nor have they before, just pointing out the blinding obvious that they all have traits same as we did as a generation wether we could see it or not.

As for generalisations, Geez that makes me laugh! When your kids get their first car and go to get insurance and they pay 3-4 times more what you do, have a sook and a cry to them about generalisations and tell them all about how your kids are special then and the fact under 25's have more accidents dosesen't apply as a generalization to them because your kids were special and brought up different!

None of us are perfect and none of our kids are either. Some would be a lot better off and make things better for their kids ultimately if they accepted that.

[irritant]

Such a shame you ruined an otherwise excellent post with that last sentence of ignorant generalisation.

Well, then most of them should all stop trying to act the same. You've got young people nowadays who are angry about things they don't even understand. Herd mentality.

The lastest is "rich people" who "stole everything" they have, or people who are "racist", or the "toxic masculine" man. When they actually know what they are talking about I'll start considering them with a bit more respect.

And rather ironic, isn't it, most of the terrorists/religious zealots/hooligans we've been talking about in this thread are people under 25.

[bob_m_54]

Well, then most of them should all stop trying to act the same. You've got young people nowadays who are angry about things they don't even understand. Herd mentality.

The lastest is "rich people" who "stole everything" they have, or people who are "racist". When they actually know what they are talking about I'll start considering them with a bit more respect.

I don't think young people have the monopoly on those kind of sentiments.

[irritant]

I don't think young people have the monopoly on those kind of sentiments.

Haha, spent over ten years at a university. There are more than enough of them with these sentiments kicking about.

[irritant]

The only way I can see myself becoming a believer is through some personal experience, which I could not logically expect others to accept.

Yes, 100%.

Personal experience is what made me a believer. Life (and others in our life) rarely "follow(s) the rules" or "normal pathways" we may have come to expect for whatever reason. Things can get rather ugly rather quickly, and one's long held understanding of things quickly disintegrates and you are left asking "What the hell happened?"

What's more frustrating is that it can take years and years and years for one to finally get the answers you were seeking, and that process and cycle of disappointment after disappointment alone is enough to drive someone nuts.

For me, it all started with bad experiences that on the surface appeared to be coincidences, but the more they happened, the more I realized the timing of these just seemed to be so perfect every time. It was weird, it was like just as I was trying to achieve a certain something, there would be this event or swerve that would ruin everything.

But then it began happening in the opposite way, with good experiences too. Just as soon as I was convinced I was for sure up shit's creek, there would be these swerves for the positive. And then I was like "Wait a minute, what's going on here?"

Truth is, you don't really ever get the answer, but eventually you see/realize that the reason doesn't matter anyway. This you see when you reflect back after arriving at the destination.

With time, I saw how the paths I would have taken, that looked so good and that I thought contained so much success and happiness, ended up being dead-end roads and would have destroyed my entire life. I would never had guessed in a million years. From my perspective, they looked so right at the time. That's when I realized these swerves (good and bad) had happened to spare me a lot of real, genuine trauma.

Looking back, the disappointments I had to face at the time were a small price to pay in the grander scheme of things, and I am SO incredibly happy that they happened!

And, it's like I said, there was just no way I could have seen beyond far enough into the future to see that what I thought were the greatest most wonderful things that I could have in life would have turned out to be total life-destroying endeavours.

That's when I realized there was Someone with intelligence far beyond anything I knew or could see with my own mind/eyes, with such compassion and willingness to do whatever it takes to spare me things that I didn't even know were going to destroy me. A genuinely brilliant Master-Planner who plans not only years ahead, but decades and centuries ahead.

And many ask me, but how do you know "He" is real, does "He" talk to you? My answer to that is this -- there are so many more richer and better ways to communicate with someone than using speech. You understand things so much clearer when someone shows you something, rather than saying it to you with words.

"I once was blind, but now I see."

And most religious people are blindest of them all.

I of course do not understand what goes through the mind of a religious person who gets caught up in whatever cause or whatever, but I have had a slight taste of that. When you are focused on something that looks so good and so right, you don't see anything else. And, conditioning from childhood sets you up to see something as good and right.

It is only once you are in the middle of it (e.g. doing some "thing" or fighting for some cause, on the front-line) that your eyes begin to open and you realize it is not what you thought it was. I think many religious fighters/whomever come to this realization once they are in the thick of it.

They are literally sobered-up.

Then it becomes a case of you can't get out, no matter how much you want to deep within you. The price is way too high either way -- staying or leaving means death ultimately.

[george65]

Personal experience is what made me a believer.

I was always brought up in a home where belief was taught if not particularly well practiced. had to say my prayers before bed, taught the 10 commandments, never eat meat on good friday etc. We never went to church and never sat round reading the Bible but none the less, basic principals were instilled and we had lots of religious based story books to help instill the values.

It was life experience that turned me from a believer into exactly the opposite. }
I have had shit in my life that the Phycs and counselors I have seen can't believe. I was told about 18 months ago by the guy considered the No.1 Shrink in oz that in the modern world, people that have suffered what I have are people they come across once in a career if that and people just don't have any of what I have had in my life. I'm ( an anonymous) case study at his uni lectures now.

Still, with all I had been though, I still believed if not particularly well practiced.

When you get a call your son has had an accident, sit with him for 5 days in ICU and then hold his hand when they turn his life support off and literally watch the life drain out of him and see it on a machine when the line goes flat and someone comes and and says the most terrifying and gut wrenching words you have ever heard "He's Gone", Then you go from being a believer to thinking god and every other daiety can go get fked.

They better be the most powerful force in the universe because when I leave this earth, i'm coming for the bastard with a resolve I guarantee he's not come across since ancient times if that. If he is the almighty and so powerful, he took my boy away from me, my wife, his sister and all the so many people he loved and touched when he could have let him live and fulfill all the dreams he had planned for himself. He took away his life and he certainly took away my wife's and mine well and truly.

I have done a lot in sales, marketing and advertising and you can pretty much call the the sales techniques right out of the religious play books. It's nothing but a crutch for the weak minded to place their hope on instead of taking responsibility for their own lives and actions.

Who the hell would want to praise or love a bastard that lets these things happen? Not just my son but all the people that suffer inhumane, undeserving pain, suffering and heartache.
Look at these muslims last week. They are there WORSHIPPING their "god" and the fker allows some nut job to walk in and kill them all and destroy their families with grief.
And they and every other faith would say their god loves them and looks after them? Are they insane? Pretty clear I don't like the muslims but fk me! Could there be a more clear proof and demonstration they are being taken for a ride when they are there doing as their god says and he allows them all to be massacred in his own house?

The guy with the gun is recognised as being a sadistic bastard but what does that make the guy supposedly with all the power in the world to let it happen and not exercise his all controlling power to stop it?
There is no explanation other than religion is a complete and utter farce.

Oh yeah, I know, he works in Mysterious ways and we don't always know what he's thinking.... Yes I do! He's a sadistic bastard to let anything like that happen to " His children".
Not only does this happen to Christians, these attrocities in many and various forms happen to people of all faiths. It's an absolute con job and a rort.
What sic mongeral would not do all they could to protect and look after their Kids yet he, " the almighty" lets his children suffer what people in the world do every day??

Piss off!

Sorry to those believers I offend but I know you will take pitty and forgive me for having not seen the light and all that.
Believe what makes you feel better. Quite clear to me that no bastard has me or mine under their wing and we are going it all alone and probably better off.

maybe i'm just a worthless POS that deserves punishment but my son wasn't, my mother wasn't when she was killed in a car accident when i was 10 and my little brother wasn't when he was taken out though no fault of his own either. and that's just the immediate people I have lost.

There is nothing good enough that could happen to me to even make me think maybe there is an all benevolent creator and master up there.
IF there is, he better start finding a corner of the universe to hide in because when my time is up, his will be shortly thereafter.

[Al Bundy]

Come on guys, surely you know it’s the “Adjustment Bureau” creating all the havoc, you fellas keep going “off plan”....

[irritant]

George, I do apologize if my post which portrays belief a certain way had upset you.

Obviously my bad experiences are nothing compared to yours, and whilst mine were ultimately a walk in the park relative to yours, and ultimately a pathway to something better, yours are by far and away heart-wrenching and horrific.

There is of course nothing I could ever say that could change anything.

I, myself, will never have children of my own, so I could never imagine the joy and what it would be like to have a son (as a man and a father, a son is very special) in the first place, but then to lose him.

I can tell you this, and that is that you are wrong about something though -- you are definitely not a worthless POS that deserves punishment. Nobody deserves what has happened to you.

This is where the hidden things that one doesn't see comes into it. I can tell you with certainty that there is one individual and one individual only who is responsible for all the heartache and misery that has ever befallen humankind, and that is Satan. If you ever wish to seek revenge after your time is up, I suggest you seek out this lowest form of scum that has ever existed.

This piece of garbage is the actual sadistic bastard you speak of, and has made it a priority to destroy everything that any person has ever held dear.

Don't believe Satan is real? I had a friend who was in a Satanic-cult.

We as relatively normal people have no idea just what a totally f*cked up underworld lurks in the places we don't see. Be grateful you don't know is the only thing I can say. My friend had described to me in detail exactly what it is they (e.g. warlocks, witches, worshippers, etc.) do at a "gathering". I actually felt physically sick because of what I was hearing. And these, you can't call them people, sadistic monsters, derived nothing but pure pleasure out of it, like pleasure on a sexual orgasmic level. Ever wonder what happens to young children or teens that disappear and are never ever found? Well, they are virgins...you get the idea.

Then, my friend tells me that when the night is over, these bastards pack away their black hooded cloaks, get dressed the next morning, in a suit and tie, and go and be Mr Squeeky-Clean I-love-everyone, running corporations, banks, and probably churches and countries too. This POS smiles at you when you walk into his office, and is the most helpful, friendly, loving guy. They are powerful, high-up, and have the capacity to change the world, and boy do they. But, to us, it all looks good. Nobody knows who they are when they are the cult-leader/warlock because they wear the hood/cloak and will probably kill anyone on the spot who tries to unveil them. At home in the day, they are Mr Perfect to the wife, loving husband and father, highly successful, buys them all the things they ever wanted. Never lifted a hand to any of them.

You see once I heard all of this I realized that if his followers are like this, then it paints a pretty accurate picture for me just of the kind of individual we are dealing with.

He has obviously been highly active in your life, and has obviously caused unimaginable heartache and grief.

Like I said, any words I say at this point will not mean much, because what good are anybody's words when one has dealt with all of this in life?

I don't know how life is for you today George, but just from one man to another, I genuinely hope that you find all that you seek and dream of, whatever it may be. In the end, yes, what you say is so true, we ourselves have to live our own lives, irrespective of how we are guided (or deserted) by external forces. We cannot simply wish to be someone else from tomorrow onwards, that is our burden.

As an aside, I can almost relate to what you were saying about religion in the household. My old man used to get stuck into the bottle most evenings and then begin preaching. I too, find religion and religious teaching a totally negative experience, probably because of that.

And yes, I too have often wondered if what I believe is true after all. I often have a voice in my mind saying "Why do you continue to believe in all this shit? It's just you and you alone that's ever been there for you. These people who say they love you have never really meant it..." and so it goes on. This was especially the case during my depression period I had.

[hinekadon]

dr mohs and george are both believers of a ""god"" but they dont realize that dietys dont exist no god no satan no allah these are just bullshit made up by man to control the masses with fear of some bullshit afterlife .Forfksake get real when you die you rot and go back to being part of the earth . if you left this earth there would be nothing left of earth now /no planet at all
So fvkoff with religion it dont exist no matter what any human thinks or says / preaches , if you want to think of a diety looking after you who to say its human could be a cockroach the most successful insect of all times now where do you think it comes from perhaps an ant or a lion strong powerfull but a bit stupid to live where it does much like muslims eh WAKE UP WORLD read my post #15

[george65]

George, I do apologize if my post which portrays belief a certain way had upset you.

No offense taken at all. I realise people's experiences are different and similar experiences can be taken totally different ways. I just wanted to have a vent and point that out.
I don't have any problem with people worshiping, that's up to them but I loose the plot pretty quick when someone starts pushing religion down my throat. ( Not that you were in any way in case that gets misconstrued).

Just as I don't go ranting about being no god to people, I get annoyed when people start pushing the barrow to me and with what we have been though, it's like we are a target to start pushing the cause on. It is irritating beyond belief. ( again, personally, not here)


Life is very unfulfilling for me since we lost our son. My wife copes better but is still as broken as I am at least.
I suffer bad depression, sometimes crippling anxiety attacks and literally have lost a part of my brain. I can't think, concentrate or work like I used to. I Physically feel like I have aged 100 years. I go to the Doc and complain I can barely get my lazy arse out the chair each day and if I am physically fine as he insists, why do I struggle to keep up with my 80 yo father. He tells me it's my brain that got hurt and just because I don't walk round with a bandage on my head like I would have on a limb, doesn't mean it's not injured. I can tell it's injured all right. I can't do simple things I would have done without thinking before. it's like I have an IQ of 12 and that only adds to the mystery. Simple tasks I have to do make my heart feel like it's going to come through my chest. I can have a panic attack about going out to dinner. I used to do things all the time where I was in control of anything from 200- 1000 people and didn't give it a thought and wondered what was wrong with people who asked me how I did it so easily and wasn't nervous about it. It was nothing, why couldn't anyone do it? Now even thinking about it terrify's me and I have no logical reason why. Not like I can't do it, not like haven't done it 100 times before, not like there are any great consequences if I somehow did screw it up.

The irony is in so many ways I am so much stronger than I ever was. Standing up and Reading a eulogy at your sons funeral in front of 500+ people is not easy. Wouldn't think twice about getting up in front a 100,000 people but knowing this is your own sons farewell. It's no picnic. Year ago I had to stand up in court and read a victims impact statement.
14 Pages I wrote for my wife and I and I made damn sure I read it loud, clear and honored my boy with every word. Time I finished there wasn't a dry eye in the place which amazed me when I saw to of them belonged to the head of the NSW courts. It was not for nothing, the company at fault got the 3rd highest sentence every handed down in NSW and my statement weighed heavily in awarding that. Took my wife and I a fortnight to start functiong properly again after that but I hounoured my boy, I think he would be proud of me and that's all that matters now.

We are still waiting for a date for an inquest which will be another week to 10 days of nightmare to sit though. The evidence of one day in court was enough. This will be excruciating but, I have to do it for my boy just as I had to grow a pair and read out that statement. It's for him and my concerns are irrelevant. I sure as heck didn't see or feel any god giving me a helping hand. Then again, spose you don't pay your membership, you don't get in the club. No matter how charitable. At least I know what I can ( and can't ) do all by myself which is beyond what I thought I could and it's not because the man in the sky was helping.

Physcs tell me to think of what would make me happy, if you could do anything in the world what would it be? I tell them there is nothing.
They will often challenge that and I tell them, Lets say I win the $100M lotto. What am I going to do? I could go buy the mansion house, fill the garage with Ferraris etc, buy a boat and a plane and then when I get it all I'll stand there and think, "I wish my boy could see and enjoy this" and that's it. Means nothing. Without him, what's the point, it's meaningless. I wouldn't get to enjoy watching his face when I threw him the keys to the car, won't be able to buy him a nice house and I won't have the grandchildren to spoil he and the wonderful girl he certainly would have married would have had.
Only thing I want in life is him back and as that is not going to happen, there is nothing else really worth while. My daughter will get married some day and instead of the joyous occasion that should be, the elephant in the room will be the fact the brother she idolised and idolised her from the first time he saw her won't be there to share it with her.

I used to say with all I had been through up to then, only thing I want is for my kids to bury me.
I saw what it did to my grandmother particularly to have to bury both her children and that it totally bent her out of shape and also changed the woman that made me say my prayers and taught me all the values to look at religion as a crock of shit as well. I realised that burying ones own kids was the greatest pain a person could suffer and I didn't want that happening so I thought I was setting the bar of my aspirations in life low enough not to be dissapointed. How wrong I was.

My father believes we are cursed. He now often says when things come up he never dudded or hurt another person in his life. What did he do to loose so many siblings, his mother when he was a kid, his wife, a child and now a grandson? I see how he has changed as well.

The ONLY person I have ever lost that made any sense was my grandmother. She was 82 and that's a proper and fitting age to pass away. Not like my brother and son whom didn't make 20, or near it, not like my mother at 38, not like 2 other kids my kids knew that also died a ridiculously premature death and not like a guy I was friends with who was expecting his second when we were expecting ours and didn't have his son 24 hours. Where was god to look after them when they needed him?

If there is a god and a satan, then I'm sorry but religion is guilty of false advertising and failure in duty of care at very least. He's not the supreme ruler or all in control of the universe or whatever the ideal is to that effect because if he was, then he would be able to stop satan doing his filthy work. I don't know what the muzzos version of satan is but clearly he has the upper hand over their allah as well.

I believe religion is an exploitation of basic human weakness. We have certain basic needs, behaviors and instincts and religion exploits those. I think religion is good for some and the basic fundamentals of the Christian faith at least are just decency, Don't lie, cheat. steal, kill, screw the neighbours wife etc. Even the Muzzos have inarguable passages of decency and goodwill. The thing is, it's NOT written by god, allah or anyone else, it's written by man for a purpose and even if that purpose was well intended, it is wide open and is exploited by man for his own less than honorable purposes.

One of the big things that has made me a non believer is my grandmother always told me for years, when she went, if there was ever a way she could come back to me she would and to look for her in whatever way. Though everything since, I have never seen a hint of her, not my mother, brother or my son. Not even something I could kid myself with. They are gone, game over, that's it just like it will be for me.
No heaven, no hell, paradise or anything else. If I ever thought I could see or be with my son again, i'd already be there with him.

Anyway, I'm going to go exercise a bit of faith in that I can build this monster DIY Diesel generator to power my home I have been playing with and go do some work on that while I do feel up to something for a change.... :0)

[lsemmens]

Thank yo Dr Mohs for sharing your faith. George, I am truly sorry you lost your son, I had to spend months watching my baby in a burns unit. I still have him, praise God. My life has not been at all an easy one. We were in Bible College when my baby was burnt. (Flame guard on a stove collapsed sending boiling water over him) At age 30 my wife got a headache that has not gone away, and now has multiple other medical problems. (our weekly medical bill - non PBS prescriptions is about $100.00) I was written off by a drunk at age 44 and haven't worked since. (these are just the "hi-lights"). Our faith in God has shown us a wonderful life. There are many wonderful people whom we love and call friends who we never would have met, had it not been for the stuff that has happened to us.

We spent 12 hours sitting around a hospital only yesterday - 2 of those were for a scheduled appointment, the rest were in A&E waiting for an enema, which, in the end, was not needed. However, whilst there we were able to encourage one or two other people in the waiting room who need to know that they were not alone. One young girl had recently been diagnosed with Hydrocephalus (you can look that one up yourself) and was pleased to be able to talk to someone who has the same condition and was able to answer some of her questions. She was very afraid that she would lapse into Dementia at 27). Unfortunately, in life, sh*t happens, sh*t makes great fertiliser, you can grow lovely flowers in sh*t.

[irritant]

Thanks for sharing George and Lsemmens, and Hinekadon.

It's quite intriguing when I think about all of this. Many years ago I asked myself how do you know a god, of any kind, is real? I think my story of my friend in the Satanic-cult, the terrorists that do what they do, etc. kind of answers that.

His/Its/Her believers make him/it/her real, for all intents and purposes, because they believe him/it/her are real. That's the realization I come to. I guess if you suddenly find yourself staring down the barrel of a gun, or are six feet away from a guy with a bomb strapped to him, his god suddenly becomes very "real" indeed. Maybe the god itself is not real, but his/its/her consequences are, because of the actions of his/its/her believers.

From a practical standpoint thus, what's the difference?

[george65]

I had to spend months watching my baby in a burns unit. I still have him, praise God. My life has not been at all an easy one. We were in Bible College when my baby was burnt. (Flame guard on a stove collapsed sending boiling water over him) At age 30 my wife got a headache that has not gone away, and now has multiple other medical problems. (our weekly medical bill - non PBS prescriptions is about $100.00) I was written off by a drunk at age 44 and haven't worked since. (these are just the "hi-lights"). Our faith in God has shown us a wonderful life.

That certainly sounds less than wonderful but the fact you are able to say you have had a wonderful life puts you far ahead of me. If that is because of your faith, then it has served you very well indeed.