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Thread: Multiple Simultaneous Charging - 12v Battery

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    yes correct !!!! but if you have a mind for the dynamics of the operation you will see that which ever puts out the highest voltage will be charging the battery at a rate decided by the charger and the battery characteristics the others are only sitting there not contributing any thing untill the working one is switched off or the output falls below one or the others rate in which case some thing other takes over and its always the highest voltage .
    Do you see what i mean or can i explain it in another way ???? they wont add untill they are all exactly the same
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    yes correct !!!! but if you have a mind for the dynamics of the operation you will see that which ever puts out the highest voltage will be charging the battery at a rate decided by the charger and the battery characteristics the others are only sitting there not contributing any thing untill the working one is switched off or the output falls below one or the others rate in which case some thing other takes over and its always the highest voltage .
    Do you see what i mean or can i explain it in another way ???? they wont add untill they are all exactly the same
    So this is incorrect then? The real world findings are wrong?
    I understand perfectly what you mean by voltage dictating and current flow

    This concept was also shown in Post #3 of this thread

    Last edited by oceanboy; 24-05-19 at 01:58 PM.
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    this is talking about watts which a mppt converts the source to energy it is also misrepresenting the system as the internal resistance is dependant on the existing state of charge of the battery which is dynamic not as he says as being additive but you choose who you wish to take notice of !!!! by the way I hold a degree in electrical engineering Im not a you tuber without justification he raves on about something he has no knowledge of the operating conditions he has no method to show the current flows and the quesiant current , or the opposition currents within the circuits IMHO he is b/s the method he shows is not the complete story , but if you want to believe it go ahead .
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    this is talking about watts which a mppt converts the source to energy it is also misrepresenting the system as the internal resistance is dependant on the existing state of charge of the battery which is dynamic not as he says as being additive but you choose who you wish to take notice of !!!! by the way I hold a degree in electrical engineering Im not a you tuber without justification he raves on about something he has no knowledge of the operating conditions he has no method to show the current flows and the quesiant current , or the opposition currents within the circuits IMHO he is b/s the method he shows is not the complete story , but if you want to believe it go ahead .
    He has his method shown in another video, showing equal cable lengths, solar panels, etc
    This same principle is also shown in multiple other videos by different sources and also webpages.
    One being an Electrical Engineering forum

    So the Yachties must have it all wrong and the Australian Company Projecta with their DC-DC charger that will similtanious charge from the Vehicle Alternator and Solar panel must be misrepresenting itself.

    Not having a go, but can you explain how his test is flawed?
    Last edited by oceanboy; 24-05-19 at 02:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    this is talking about watts which a mppt converts the source to energy it is also misrepresenting the system as the internal resistance is dependant on the existing state of charge of the battery which is dynamic not as he says as being additive but you choose who you wish to take notice of !!!! by the way I hold a degree in electrical engineering Im not a you tuber without justification he raves on about something he has no knowledge of the operating conditions he has no method to show the current flows and the quesiant current , or the opposition currents within the circuits IMHO he is b/s the method he shows is not the complete story , but if you want to believe it go ahead .
    So if the amp meter doesn't show that the current is passing into the battery, where is it going to?
    Cheers, Tiny
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    If you looked he had a "shore power" supply with a amp meter in line there, hardly scientific
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    Quote Originally Posted by oceanboy View Post
    This same principle is also shown in multiple other videos by different sources and also webpages.
    I can show it here live for anyone who cares to visit.
    As I said earlier in the thread, I have 2 regulators for my battery input, one controls the constant (24/7) 250W micro-hydro source as well as 300W photovoltaic source, the other regulator controls another 300W photovoltaic source.

    The micro-hydro regulator handles the hydro by using a shunt dump to disperse incoming current when it is not needed in a taper charge fashion. This shunt dump is an element encased in an aluminium tower that heats/warms the battery room.
    The solar that it controls is switched with a solid state relay to taper its input. Wasted energy, I really should be dumping all of this into the hot water as well, but have been too lazy to get another 12v element for the tank.

    The second regulator shunts its solar into an element in our hot water header tank, it's used to preheat the water going into our wood heated hot water tank.
    I have separate analogue amp meters showing the hydro input, another for the solar input & between them & the battery another big shunt that is connected to the Victron Energy meter, which logs the combined input of all sources as well as net input/output etc.

    Hybrid input power systems for standalone battery systems have been in use for decades.
    The power flowing from all sources connected to the battery bank is real & provable.
    Sometimes it's all going into the battery, sometimes it's not, depending on the state of charge of the battery bank, the apparent load at the time etc. Of course the solar is never at a constant current as it fluctuates all day long. The hydro however is constant.

    The only time one will override or have a reduction effect on the other is when the battery bank is near full & the tapering charge of all sources will reduce, as the Regulators/Controllers are set to do so.

    Sometimes it needs to be set so that one tapers off before the other, as in my case; if I set my solar only regulator higher than the float voltage of the Hydro regulator, the inbuilt Plasmatronics regulator gets angry when the battery voltage rises above it's mode voltage (float, bulk, equalisation or absorption), which ever it happens to be in. When this happens it disconnects from the hydro source.
    The effect of no battery or shunt load connection to the hydro de-excites it's capacitors & it goes into free spin, which is quite loud & not really good for the roller bearings.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    you will see that which ever puts out the highest voltage will be charging the battery at a rate decided by the charger and the battery characteristics the others are only sitting there not contributing any thing untill the working one is switched off or the output falls below one or the others rate in which case some thing other takes over and its always the highest voltage .
    Do you see what i mean or can i explain it in another way ???? they wont add untill they are all exactly the same
    It would be good if you could explain in a bit more depth.
    Are not the voltages from the charging sources close enough and then equalised across the Batteries terminals for the Bulk stage?

    Last edited by oceanboy; 24-05-19 at 07:20 PM.
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    Ok then a battery two chargers ok put the 1st charger on to a load say 5 amps v= ixr 12v=5x? theoretical 2.4ohms
    second charger on to the same load one would expect the same result ? yes/no /maybe . ok if the same they will share the load
    if no then one will supply until the battery is charged to a certain point there will be current between both chargers in opposition to the other not much in most cases but as stated by tiny (if I set my solar only regulator higher than the float voltage of the Hydro regulator, the inbuilt Plasmatronics regulator gets angry when the battery voltage rises above it's mode voltage (float, bulk, equalisation or absorption), which ever it happens to be in. When this happens it disconnects from the hydro source. ) So as you can see there are currents flowing in the circuits that are "hidden " between chargers and batteries? YTers dont know about these and the are not aware of them even tho they seem to talk with so authority they are amateur cameramen not electricians so dont believe the shit they rite as its not gospel cheers DON
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    yes correct !!!! but if you have a mind for the dynamics of the operation you will see that which ever puts out the highest voltage will be charging the battery at a rate decided by the charger and the battery characteristics the others are only sitting there not contributing any thing untill the working one is switched off or the output falls below one or the others rate in which case some thing other takes over and its always the highest voltage .
    Do you see what i mean or can i explain it in another way ???? they wont add untill they are all exactly the same

    In the bulk charge phase try to see all three controllers as constant current sources.
    Their voltage is not relevant until it reaches absorption, then their behaviour changes until they become constant voltage sources.

    While the current is not absolutely constant of course, all three will contribute and add their available current to the sum.

    A simple series resistor turns a voltage into a current source.

    For the sake of understanding what is going on here you can just think for now that the regulator acts like a 'series resistor' that drops the maximum power point voltage of lets say 18V from the panel to lets say 13.3V on the battery terminals.
    So when another power source with a 'resistor' is added, that won't stop the first one from supplying current just because it raises the terminal voltage to 13.5V because both come from an 18V source, so no current can flow backwards either.

    An MMPT controller actually converts the losses a series resistor would have to additional current, so a 10A panel might end up producing 12A charge current but that does not change the fact that the source could still deliver usable current up to 18V if no voltage limit occurs at absorption.
    However for the PWM controller the resistor model would be quite accurate.
    Last edited by nomeat; 24-05-19 at 07:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    So as you can see there are currents flowing in the circuits that are "hidden " between chargers and batteries? YTers dont know about these and the are not aware of them even tho they seem to talk with so authority they are amateur cameramen not electricians so dont believe the shit they rite as its not gospel cheers DON
    Hey Don, those current flows are not hidden.

    In an electrical circuit current flows in the path of least resistance, just like water does.
    Circuit boards, regulators, resistors, resistive loads etc, all can have effect & change the path.
    In my system it could be flowing to the battery, the dump load or the system load (running appliances, lights etc), they are just pathways for the power current to follow.
    The one with the least resistance gets the bulk of the flow, more resistance & it slows down. Too much resistance is close to if not a dead short = not good.
    Nothing hidden about that.

    Mixed voltages; no problems with the right circuitry.
    My micro-hydro unit produces 3 phase AC & gets rectified back to 12V (in my system) or 24V, auto selectable, depending on the battery it's connected to.
    My garage power system has a 250W 24V solar panel feeding thru a 12/24V regulator into a 12V battery.
    As long as the circuits & wiring are rated correctly, no problems.

    The battery bank rules the ultimate voltage of the system at its end of the equation, the regulators or smart controllers can only push power into the battery until it's full, after which, with nil or faulty regulation, the voltage will go too high & kill the battery. Warning explosion is imminent at this stage.

    There is nothing hidden here, just a path for the power to flow or be rectified & regulated when the system needs no more input.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    So as you can see there are currents flowing in the circuits that are "hidden " between chargers and batteries?
    I have never heard an Electrical Engineer explain facts with the term "Hidden Currents"
    I was hoping for a more step by step explanation of the process
    Maybe the reasons why it doesn't work as we think.

    There is no Power Factor, (Apparent or Real power) here... its just DC.
    So im confused as to where the "Hidden Current" has gone?

    Anyway, all that aside, Is this what you are talking about?



    Larger battery banks often require greater charging than a single controller can provide. Generally, there is no problem with charging battery banks with several charging sources. The TriStar MPPT manual states the following. “Multiple TriStars can be installed in parallel on the same battery bank to achieve higher charging current. Additional parallel controllers can also be added in the future.”
    Last edited by oceanboy; 25-05-19 at 12:26 PM.
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    Just a side line on different power currents traveling on the same wires.
    Yes Don, this was hidden until it wasn't.

    Back 25 years ago when I first built my system, the regulator I had kept blowing MOSFETS, replace them & they'd blow again.

    I talked to a guy who was pretty clued up on standalone systems, he quizzed me about other electrical items that run nearby, like our electric fence unit that was powered from the 12V house batteries.
    He said you may think this sounds weird but that electric fence could be causing the MOSFETS to blow due to a ripple voltage coming up your earth wires.
    MOSFETS do not like very high voltages.

    So he had me put my electric fence tester (luckily I have a good one that shows actual voltage even if only attached to one wire) on the negative terminal of the battery, well bugger me, there was 1000v showing.
    He said that'll be it then.

    Further investigation, showed the electric fence unit internally shared the earth for the high voltage with the 12v negative terminal & wouldn't function without it.

    So I purchased a new unit that didn't share earths & the problem solved, haven't blown a MOSFET since.
    In hindsight I probably could have modded the old unit to work, but I didn't have the skills & knowledge back then that I have now.
    Last edited by Tiny; 25-05-19 at 01:22 PM.
    Cheers, Tiny
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