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Thread: We are told we live in a free country...

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    Default We are told we live in a free country...

    ...but not in Australia:




    I didn't know it is still like that. I though totalitarian control was everywhere these days.

    I forgot all about those freedoms and trust.
    When I came back to Australia it did take some time to get used to all the restrictions.
    I actually still find it rude when I have to pay upfront for my food and beverage.

    The problem is that almost daily there are new nanny laws making life more and more restricted.

    So why do we have so many idiots here that ruin everything for everybody else but they don't exist in Europe?

    I do remember right wing extremists (neo-nazis, skinheads) causing trouble in football stadiums back then but the 'worst' restriction
    was that you had to drink your beer in plastic cups. Trust me that is not very nice but better than getting a glass bottle over the head.

    But why, why, why is it here so different?

    One thing I DO notice is that when the kid's here reach 'legal drinking age" they all go out suddenly and binge like morons because now they are allowed to.
    In my times(in Europe) you were slowly introduced to light alcoholic beverages in your teens(legally allowed), so it was no big deal once you turn 18.
    Can't remember any binge drinking, no people fighting, we all just had a good time.

    But I can still clearly remember when I was in Australia for holidays in the late 1980's the one time I ever went in a resort bar (Stradbroke Island) in the evening with a mate, when he came out suddenly with blood all over him, bashed by the 'Victorians' because his shirt had a floral design and said they wanted to kill him.
    Because I was born in Melbourne(no idea why they believed me) I managed to convince them that I would deal with him and they left us alone.
    I actually met them before because I was doing a voluntary shuttle service between the house boats and the resort with my mate's Zodiac, so maybe that saved us.
    Next morning their houseboat was gone and my mate invited me for a free flight in a seaplane as thanks for 'saving' his life.

    Nevertheless I haven't visited an Aussie pub in the night time since.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    .................................

    One thing I DO notice is that when the kid's here reach 'legal drinking age" they all go out suddenly and binge like morons because now they are allowed to.
    In my times(in Europe) you were slowly introduced to light alcoholic beverages in your teens(legally allowed), so it was no big deal once you turn 18.
    Can't remember any binge drinking, no people fighting, we all just had a good time.

    ..................................


    My old man gave my brother and I 1 small beer when we had prawns or crays on a weekend. He and mum reckoned that all kids should be introduced to alcohol. Same with guns. We were taught to shoot and and to practice the proper safe handling of weapons.

    These days the luminaries pontificate how that just creates the problems. It's bullsh!t, and they have NO evidence, but thats what the loud knowitalls say. I might drink a little too much beer I suppose but no hard liquor at all. I haven't ever owned a gun either.
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enf View Post

    These days the luminaries pontificate how that just creates the problems. It's bullsh!t, and they have NO evidence, but thats what the loud knowitalls say. I might drink a little too much beer I suppose but no hard liquor at all. I haven't ever owned a gun either.
    Pussy !!

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    Quote Originally Posted by enf View Post
    My old man gave my brother and I 1 small beer when we had prawns or crays on a weekend. He and mum reckoned that all kids should be introduced to alcohol. Same with guns. We were taught to shoot and and to practice the proper safe handling of weapons.

    These days the luminaries pontificate how that just creates the problems. It's bullsh!t, and they have NO evidence, but thats what the loud knowitalls say. I might drink a little too much beer I suppose but no hard liquor at all. I haven't ever owned a gun either.

    Guns, yes that is another thing I missed.
    Yes my dad let me use the air rifle when I was 10 and gave me a blank 9mm with teargas cartridges when I was 16 to protect myself when I go out at night.
    In Europe you are (or were, don't know 100% today) allowed to protect yourself from criminals with these blank guns (just the noise would already frighten them off) and small spray cans with teargas or what ever is in them.

    Here they come up with all kinds crazy reasons why they are very bad for us because somebody might do shit with them but I never heard anybody in Germany have any trouble with them.
    Sure the muzzle fire from a 9mm blank held at point blank in somebodies face could be nasty but the tear gas spray cans... seriously?
    I am sure they could have saved some of those murdered girls in parks, etc that we hear in the news regularly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post

    But why, why, why is it here so different?
    I am pretty sure you have the answer. It is pretty much similar to political correctness. Both are products of the same group of people.

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    I gave my son " Drinking" lessons when he was 12.

    Have some red wine Son, this is very good! No , you don't like it, strange, Try this scotch then, it's very nice. Took a good sip, ran to the sink spitting it out rinsing his mouth and turning red asking how the hell can anyone drink that? We went through 5-6 things in the liquor Cabinet before he came to the conclusion that everything in it and all booze was poison. I would follow up and ask him if he'd like something and " encouraged" him to try it but he never would.
    He maintained that prospective till he was 18 and was introduced to Cider at his Cousins 21St.

    He did like a drink and he did get drunk on occasions but it was through having a good time not getting pissed TO have a good time. That alone was something achieved to me. Thing was when other parents were having to lock up their booze and watch their young kids, we didn't have a worry.

    Got some bungers off a mate about the same time and got him to have a Cigarette. Didn't get through one but it was the first and only. Mate would come over and always offer him one and usually got a string of bad words in return for his generous offer.


    -I- took them to swimming lessons soon as they were able. Son was 2 because he had a lot of ear infection problems but once we got that fixed, he was in there. Daughter was 9 months. Again, I figured the greatest attraction to a kid was something they weren't allowed to do so I made sure they knew all about it and how to survive in water. Figured you teach them to cross the road, you teach them to swim. Can't believe how many idiot parents don't do that even now. As such while other Parents were freaking out any time there was water nearby, we didn't have to worry. if they wanted to go in they asked. If they fell in, they could get themselves out because I used to make them go in clothed at home and made a game of it. Never saw a fenced creek, river or damn in my life so the whole point of fencing pools in my mind is arse about what should be done. the pool was always accessible from our house and never had a problem... until other kids came over and we had to shut it off which gave my kids the shits having to go the long way round to the yard.

    Rather than keep things from our kids, we exposed them and let them experience everything we could see potential as problems early on.
    They never became problems for themeven though a lot of other parents whom had tried to shelter their kids were attracted to everything they tried to keep them away from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    .....................................

    Rather than keep things from our kids, we exposed them and let them experience everything we could see potential as problems early on.
    They never became problems for themeven though a lot of other parents whom had tried to shelter their kids were attracted to everything they tried to keep them away from.
    Ditto!!

    It's called parental edumacation George. It's something that society has had beaten out of them.
    The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.

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    Eggzaccerly! Our kids all grew up knowing that they could have, and do, whatever they liked, provided they were also willing to accept the consequences. Food and drink were there to be had, and it was always available to them but they never needed or wanted to abuse the privilege. Heck, we went to Sydney when our oldest was 5 and took them all to the restaurant at the top of the centrepoint tower. The maitre d saw 4 small kids and asked if we really knew where we were. Our response was yep, they'll be fine! After the meal (my 3 YO daughter ordered baby octopus, and ate it), the same maitre d, apologized and said he'd never have believed that such young children could behave so well.. We had friends whose kids were not allowed sweets or other "bad" things and whenever there was a party they'd be all over the sweets like a rash, our tribe, would eat all the "good food" and then think, I suppose I'd better have some sweets. Time they were teens, each was capable of preparing a meal for the family, and did, on a regular basis.

    We had a giggle one night, friends had sent their 12YO son up for a holiday and our second son was cooking WOG BOG (now, ain't that racist!) for tea and asked the friend to help. Second Son says "How are you going to get on when you get married and you wife goes into hospital to have a baby, are you going to eat take-away? "

    Our kids all grew up in Darwin, so swimming was part of their life, time they could walk, they could swim.

    Given the rules and regulations that we now have to live with, I worry about future generations. Time was when kids would have a dust up in the playground, and they'd be best of mates afterwards, Now they'd be calling lawyers and counsellors and having the parents in for counselling and all the crap that goes with it. Ours all grew up knowing that if they did summat wrong, they'd get a boot up the backside, but still knew that we loved them and would stick with them whether we agreed with their choices, or not.

    I can happily say that now, my kids have all grown up to become our friends, and their friends are also our friends.

    As an aside, I'll be gone for just over a week from Sunday. Eldest (39) is getting married (for the first time) in China!
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    I cant agree with much of that skewed first post , and ive been to Europe quite a few times so can speak from experience

    rules and regulations are there for a reason , and although some are over the top there are generally in place to prevent harm to the majority of people. The article portrays Aussies as a bunch of drunken slobs - well funny that each time you are hanging out in a city pub the only young people getting truly pissed are the pommy , Irish or German backpackers. In Europe there is much less car ownership in the major cities so if someone gets pissed ( socially acceptable ) and walks home 2 blocks to thier apartment its no biggie. Its still illegal over there to ride a pushbike after drinking !! so its not like there are no rules in place at all. You dont have to walk more than a block or two to find a bar. Here in Oz you need to drive to a pub in most cases so yeah i can see why there are drink driving laws in place.
    with regards beach drinking - yeah there may be a lot of people drinking on the pathetic pebble filled beaches in Europe but there are far less people actually swimming as the water is too cold for that. Besides they dont even have surf or waves to contend with in europe. Yeah drinking and drowning on a surf beach in Oz is not great which is why we have regulations limiting that behavior.

    Europe's lack of regulations is exactly why they have hoardes of Muzscum invaders making their streets a no go zone. awesome place - not!

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    .

    I forgot all about those freedoms and trust.
    When I came back to Australia it did take some time to get used to all the restrictions.
    I actually still find it rude when I have to pay upfront for my food and beverage.
    You've never run a food business then
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' boy View Post
    You've never run a food business then
    Not in Australia but I did work a few times in a German pub when i was younger.
    Everybody just came to the bar with their coasters and payed when they left.

    Trust is something I see here lacking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Not in Australia but I did work a few times in a German pub when i was younger.
    Everybody just came to the bar with their coasters and payed when they left.

    Trust is something I see here lacking.
    Sadly there is no trust with the public anymore, too many runners.

    Speaking of trust (and it disappearing) There is an old Jeweller in town i've known for years
    He has told me some amazing stories from his youth in Melbourne when working under his father (another Jeweller)
    As a kid, he would pick up Diamonds from the Diamond merchant, in a brown paper bag and walk them across town to his fathers jewellery
    No money changed hands, they were on tick until the money came in from the customer...

    Apparently this was how it was done, an industry built of trust, honesty and family name.

    Then too many young players started cheating the system.
    Probably has nothing to do with this thread.... But things have changed everywhere.
    Last edited by ol' boy; 19-07-19 at 07:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ol' boy View Post
    Probably has nothing to do with this thread.... But things has changed everywhere.
    OB, your response has everything to do with the point I am trying to make, that some other members here seem to get down the wrong throat.

    Who is REALLY fault why we honest citizens can't be trusted anymore, why we are now all controlled, spied upon, privacy taken away, etc?

    I thought it was everywhere like that too these days and really didn't know, at least in those parts of Europe where the Author of those articles visited, that old fashioned trust that people don't behave like dickheads still existed.

    Vroom does have a point that you usually can stagger home by foot. There is a pub on almost every second corner of Cologne where I lived but I didn't see people getting aggressive and bashing each other.

    ...and I spent more time in them than at home. We would be planing, designing, drawing up schematics of our business projects on coasters and serviettes in those days, not in any offices or board rooms, didn't have the money for those, but even later when we did have an office, a lot of brainstorming was still done in the "Pinte" (short for pub in Cologne).
    Some confusion with the coasters happened occasionally when we scribbled all over them, but the bar tender just asked what we thought we had and he was fine with that
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 19-07-19 at 07:21 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post

    Who is REALLY fault why we honest citizens can't be trusted anymore,
    The trust thing doesn't really worry me. I am surprised when people do trust me more actually.
    I learnt the hard way, the people that get all upset and say " Don't you trust me?" are guaranteed to be the ones that rip you off and screw you over.
    Every single time.

    When people ask me that now, I turn it right back on them and look them dead in the eye and say " No, I don't!"
    I couldn't give a flying if I offend them or not, Hopefully I do and they go else where because even when you get your money, it's odds on they will still feign problems and want discounts or refunds or what ever. It goes with the mentality and often the goal from the start.
    The reactions you get are often telling because the people that ask do so in a way that implys you would be rude or cause offence if you did. Tough.

    In my repeated experience, Honest people don't ask to be trusted, like me they are the opposite and ready to pay up front because the thought of ripping anyone off was the last thing in their minds and they know what people can be like.

    If the ones that want to be trusted get funny I simply tell them, " I don't know you, trust is earned not automatically granted. " Pay up or piss off. It is NOT rude to ask for your money in my book. If they don't like that, stiff shit.

    I rather loose the sale than loose the product/ time I paid for and the sleep at night being pissed off over it because stuff like that plays on my mind.

    How has this come about?
    I'd say population and modern life has a lot to do with it.
    Back even 50 years ago communities were a lot smaller and everyone knew everyone else much like small country towns today. there was much less chance to disappear and if you did touch anyone up, your name was mud in the whole town and you were shamed.
    These days no one knows anyone else and people come and go as soon as their 3 Month lease is up .

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    Trust should not have to be earned and I would never ASK anybody to trust me,
    but we just shouldn't all be seen as potential criminals.
    We should not be guilty until proven innocent.


    I think this is all terrible.
    I think this mentality has grown stronger over the years, maybe even because we have the technology to control everybody that we have all become control freaks.
    Strangely this same technology could also be used to allow more freedom.
    If somebody doesn't pay their bill and just walks out you have it all on camera.
    Facial recognition and the driver license/passport database and the police will be knocking on your door.

    Of course there are limits how far it can go.
    Generally I would never let a stranger stay overnight in my house and I am very cautious who I would let in, that is my private space.
    But a pub or restaurant is designed for the public.
    They want my money but then they should treat me like a respectable person who will eventually pay their bill.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 20-07-19 at 12:37 AM.
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    Trust a bloke I don't know from a grain of salt? Only as far as I can kick him. Trust a bloke from my small town who's been here forever? Sure thing, until he gives me reason not to. Trust, like respect, is earned, regardless of whether you look like a crim, or not. Many of the worlds best con men were able to convince people to trust them. I bet they didn't look like crooks, either.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by nomeat View Post
    Trust should not have to be earned
    Why not?
    Might be a nice ideal but really, are you going to lend someone you have never seen before in your life 50 or 100 bucks on the promise of repayment?
    I think that would be mildly put as foolish these days and your faith would be sadly misplaced.

    but we just shouldn't all be seen as potential criminals.


    I don't see it that way. I have honestly forgot to pay for stuff before. Got talking, distracted and walked out without ponying up. I have also thought I paid for things and even said I had when questioned only then to realise I actually hadn't. It wasn't an intentional thing, Just a mistake. If I pay upfront it eliminates the potential for embarrassment.... or arrest.

    We should not be guilty until proven innocent.
    Another nice but completely misplaced sentiment. As noble and traditional as the thought is, it is implied we are guilty in virtually every situation where the accusation may apply.

    If somebody doesn't pay their bill and just walks out you have it all on camera.
    Facial recognition and the driver license/passport database and the police will be knocking on your door.
    I think that is a laughably misplaced, impractical and basically ignorant position.

    Have you any idea what that would cost? Particularly if you had a business with multiple entrys/ exits.
    Then you have to keep track of whom has paid and whom has not and then spend time going through tapes to identify them.
    Have you ever tried going to the Police over something like that? Even if they were prepared to do all the work it would take them to identify the non payers, what then? Track them down, Charge them, go to court....... Employee has to be paid to hang around court all day, probably manager supervisor as well.
    Over what, $20-50?? How much police resources would that take IF they could be fked which I would not blame them in the least if they weren't, which they would not be anyway.

    And all this time, money and frigging around that could be avoided by a simple, easy and workable policy of " Pay up front" and be done with it? The idea is so flawed on a plethora of level and all because you and maybe a hand full of others have outdated ideas and delicate sensitivities.

    Seems to me you have never run your own business or if you have, you either lead a very charmed life or didn't learn your lesson.
    I learnt mine real early on luckily. It's not even a matter of being ripped off or i'll intent. I got my business cracking along real nicely. Things were going well. One day Secretary comes to me and says there is not enough money in the bank for my wages, what do you want to do? I was like WTF? We have been killing it.
    Took about 10 Min to add up the $35k worth of uncollected orders we had sitting round that we had paid our suppliers for and people hadn't picked up despite being told the items were ready. This was not product that could be returned or onsold so if we didn't get our money, we were screwed.
    From that day on it was simply a policy of we don't order anything till we have the money up front.
    We never had a cash flow problem again.

    It wasn't these people were looking to rip us off, it was just Human nature. There is always something more pressing or another bill that needs paying over the luxury's or indulgences. Ironically, when the work was not paid for there were many instances when it sat round for 3-4 Months before being collected. Once I brought in the " Order not started till paid for" Policy, which to this day I have never had a SINGLE objection to, the longest I every had to wait was 3 weeks and that was a substantial order which I had started without payment because those clients had earned my trust and I had no doubts about them. They came to pay the money and I presented them with their order which was very much appreciated. The great thing was as a business owner I am free to enforce my policys or not as I see fit. In this case I had already conducted a number of transactions with these people, I'd spent some time with them and I would have trusted them implicitly. I had already proven through practical experience however how many people were not good to their word when it came to paying for their orders in a timely fashion.

    Having been on the other side of the fence is a main reason I don't have a problem paying for anything up front.


    Generally I would never let a stranger stay overnight in my house and I am very cautious who I would let in, that is my private space.
    But a pub or restaurant is designed for the public.
    That to me is hypocritical and selfish.
    You couldn't let a single person in your house whom it would be easy to watch and keep track of yet you expect a business to let in tens to hundreds of people and they somehow keep track of whom has paid and whom has not? Are you for real?

    A pub or a restaurant is peoples livelihood and people have everything they own and more tied up in the business and the future well being of their family as well.
    You couldn't let a stranger in your home but you expect people to trust strangers in their house of business? You sound like someone that has been a worker all their lives and just think everyone that owns a business has cash running out their arses. And before you tell me about all the business you have owned run and know about, if that is the case then you DO know better and are either taking the piss or a fool.

    And exactly what restaurants do you eat at? Even the decent local caffe's round here don't ask for upfront payment. Exactly where do you live and what sort of places do you go to? I spose maccas is technically a restaurant but.... When I go to a real restaurant, I have never been asked to pay up front.
    Maybe you ought to take the Mrs to more upmarket and refined places than Maccas or the $10 all you can eat joints you are frequenting now? Start by looking for an establishment where they have Table cloths, take reservations and DON'T have a kiddies play area. Your other half will appreciate the change I'm Certain.
    Just make sure to tell her to take a step back before you reach for your wallet so she can avoid the colony of resident moths that will fly out when you disturb them.

    They want my money but then they should treat me like a respectable person who will eventually pay their bill.
    Eventually? Like when? When a court 7 months later makes you pay it off over 6 Months at a buck a week because the only job you ever had in your life was going to the social security office and raising your 4 Kids that belong to 5 Different fathers? Fk that!
    If you are so mortally offended by the simple act of paying for something up front instead of me having to go to unworkable, impractical and non financially Viable measures to recover my money from the people who absolutely will rip me off, fine! Go take your business to a competitor whom won't be around very long if they are that stupid to pander to that sort of outlook.

    I also learned a Long time ago I don't have to work my arse off to earn nothing or loose money, I can do that sitting on the couch watching TV eating Chocolates and drinking Champagne.
    Another lesson was that I do NOT want every customer that walks though the door. Some of them, with no particular example in mind.....I am better off without!

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