It's interesting that you didn't elaborate on your thought experiment. I'll have a try. Assuming it was only Australia that opened its borders, we would double, triple or more our population very quickly. As most of the people coming here would likely have few if any assets, we would have to fund food, shelter and medical treatment for them urgently. The normal social security system would simply not be able to cope, lacking both the funds and the staff. Would we have enough food in the country to feed 100 million people? 75 million? 50 million? And where would the money come from to pay for it? But it would not of course be an option to let these new arrivals starve. How would we keep order. There would be a state of emergency and martial law very quickly. Perhaps we would need foreign aid. Perhaps food producers would have their products seized or paid for with worthless currently or vouchers. There would almost certainly be rationing. Taxes for those working would go through the roof. Our currency would become worthless. Depending on the actual numbers and time-frame, we may eventually be able to absorb sufficient people to preserve some measure of prosperity. West Germany, a very wealthy state, was with some pain able to absorb East Germany, but received additional land and resources to do so. But more likely we would end up a 3rd world nation ourselves, and have the pleasure of enjoying our new-found poverty with our new citizens. One of the reasons why multi-multiculturalism has not been a total disaster in this country is because we are wealthy, and there is enough food for everyone to eat and enough prosperity to go around. People are not starving. When this ceases to be it will be dog eat dog, with ethnic and other groups banding together to fight for their tribes.
This is without considering other implications. Different unintegrated cultures fighting. Since all new citizens presumably must be given the right to vote, we can expect new parties representing the new arrivals and indeed parties for each little ethnic group and no doubt religious parties. The ability of the country to respond to the real emergency would be hindered by these new groups taking control from the existing population. Australia's culture as it is would be overwhelmed and destroyed.
Open borders would likely destroy Australia. And certainly Australia as we know it. We would become just another 3rd world country.
I'm not of course infallible, nor is this the only scenario or even necessarily accurate. But we have only so much wealth to go around.
Let's hope we never get "progressive" enough to try this.
^ Well said, all we need do is look @ what open borders and massive paki legal immigration has done/is doing to the UK where social security is being denied/curtailed to their own ppl due to the massive cost of paying benefits to foreigners
then you have the crippled health services were you are lucky to speak to a vet over the phone after waiting a week instead of seeing someone in person
It will simply turn into a second version of the place where the most immigrants come from.
All you have to do is take their home country's name, and then add "New" in-front of it.
True freedom is the greatest gift a man can possess, yet is the one thing most easily and innocently given away, to crafty curses and binds cleverly disguised as blessings and gifts, in the pursuit of supposed achievement, status and power.
The main reason for that is that you can assume that I think much the same way and the same things as everybody else on this forum. It's an echo chamber, so in truth I'm not looking for confirmation of what I think is right. I'm looking for dissagreement and where we might be wrong.
The path of least resistance, is to entertain all of our fears. It's lazy thinking. I think it's right, but is it really? I like to grasp that nettle.
The open borders thought was all borders. Of course it's not realistic, but you can imagine if leftards ruled the world. Well, you don't have to imagine too hard
OK, to start of course, social security definitely wouldn't cope. I'd be pretty sure of that. It doesn't cope well already else medicare and education would be completely free and we would all retire at 65/67 and live happily ever after on the pension. No need for a perverted super industry, health insurance or hecs debts.
I wonder about the hoards coming here? Could they afford to get here? Of course they would be pulling out all kinds of stops to achieve it, but then once here as you said, no social security, no accommodation, no jobs, no food, no hope for a better life, only a new level of poverty and no means or motivation to return to their former abode.
Social order. That's another interesting aspect. Yep, reduced to absolute poverty, that shit is fertile ground for the crime to get a foothold.
yep. I can see democracy high on the crystal meth of freedom there.Since all new citizens presumably must be given the right to vote...
The East/West Germany merger came with land and some assests that while they might appear to have been worthless, had a lot of future wealth.
If I owned an apartment in East Berlin, I wouldn't exactly be a destitute in 2010
But that is one of the reasons for running this thought experiment. What if Australia opened a colony. The best/worst example I can give is East Timor.
Instead of East Timor becoming independent, what if they wanted to become part of Australia and we accepted? It would be a similar situation as East Germany,
and I can safely say, if that was the case, the country would be 100 times better off now if that were the case. The people would be better off, but at their expense.
Australian investment overwhelming their assets would make them both very rich and very poor.
So run that experiment further. What if colonisation was the answer? A country like Mexico hands over a state like Chihuahua to USA and they treat it like a colony?
Yeah, bad example, but you might get the gist of it. Expert the social stability and displace/deport the poverty and corruption to the original home country.
The USA sort of already does this. A lot of manufacturing is done in Mexico and the products moved to the USA.
I've mentioned exporting award wages to teleworkers in Australia. Same sort of thing. Export the stability and wealth and conditions as a job lot.
I'll have a try. Assuming it was only Australia that opened its borders, we would double, triple or more our population very quickly. As most of the people coming here would likely have few if any assets, we would have to fund food, shelter and medical treatment for them urgently. The normal social security system would simply not be able to cope, lacking both the funds and the staff. Would we have enough food in the country to feed 100 million people? 75 million? 50 million? And where would the money come from to pay for it? But it would not of course be an option to let these new arrivals starve. How would we keep order. There would be a state of emergency and martial law very quickly. Perhaps we would need foreign aid. Perhaps food producers would have their products seized or paid for with worthless currently or vouchers. There would almost certainly be rationing. Taxes for those working would go through the roof. Our currency would become worthless. Depending on the actual numbers and time-frame, we may eventually be able to absorb sufficient people to preserve some measure of prosperity. West Germany, a very wealthy state, was with some pain able to absorb East Germany, but received additional land and resources to do so. But more likely we would end up a 3rd world nation ourselves, and have the pleasure of enjoying our new-found poverty with our new citizens. One of the reasons why multi-multiculturalism has not been a total disaster in this country is because we are wealthy, and there is enough food for everyone to eat and enough prosperity to go around. People are not starving. When this ceases to be it will be dog eat dog, with ethnic and other groups banding together to fight for their tribes.
This is without considering other implications. Different unintegrated cultures fighting. Since all new citizens presumably must be given the right to vote, we can expect new parties representing the new arrivals and indeed parties for each little ethnic group and no doubt religious parties. The ability of the country to respond to the real emergency would be hindered by these new groups taking control from the existing population. Australia's culture as it is would be overwhelmed and destroyed.
Open borders would likely destroy Australia. And certainly Australia as we know it. We would become just another 3rd world country.
I'm not of course infallible, nor is this the only scenario or even necessarily accurate. But we have only so much wealth to go around.
Let's hope we never get "progressive" enough to try this.[/QUOTE]
Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
Good post Trash. The number of arrivals would of course eventually slacken, but far too late. There would be plenty of easy opportunities to get here, with local activists providing funding and no doubt other countries wanting to get rid of their dregs or minorities would quickly follow suit. Britain may again want to transport its prisoners to Australia, this time with no investment beyond the trip!
I have often thought whether the colonisation approach you describe would not be the best way to fight poverty, though it is most unlikely that even 3rd world shitholes will cede their sovereignty. Those in control anywhere hate to lose it. Also, current political thinking would require that each new citizen be given full rights, including voting and travel rights, immediately. In practice there would almost certainly need to be a transition period towards full citizenship. Your choice of East Timor is an interesting one. My choice for thinking about this was PNG. It almost happened! I suspect both countries may well be better off today had PNG in fact voted to join us. The US too could easily include other states. Not overnight, but progressively. One major problem that this approach solves is that it largely neuters many of the local cultural practices which ensure poverty remains endemic, including corruption.
Well Trash ! trumpy just wanted to buy greenland maybe he was going to dump the democrats there ? Or is there another possibility???? ? Off shore detention center comes to mind ???
Paywalled................
Tamil asylum case sets path for 6000 others
Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton with (inset) Tamil asylum-seekers Nadesalingam Murugappan, left, and Priya Nadarasa with their children Tharunicaa and Kopika.
Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton with (inset) Tamil asylum-seekers Nadesalingam Murugappan, left, and Priya Nadarasa with their children Tharunicaa and Kopika.
exclusive
Simon Benson
National Affairs Editor
Rosie Lewis
Reporter
@rosieslewis
12:00AM September 4, 2019
Almost 6000 asylum-seekers whose refugee claims were rejected after they arrived by boat under the previous Labor government are engaged in similar legal #appeals to that of a Tamil family that will learn on Wednesday whether their #eleventh-hour Federal Court bid to prevent their #deportation has succeeded.
Department of Home Affairs statistics also reveal that successive Labor immigration ministers removed 2631 Sri Lankan asylum-seekers from the Australian community and onshore detention centres and returned them to Sri Lanka at the height of the border protection crisis between 2010 and 2013.
The backlog of legal cases involving people fighting to stay in Australia was revealed after opposition home affairs spokeswoman Kristina Keneally said an Albanese government would “absolutely” be open to letting the Tamil family stay, despite the courts finding they were not genuine #refugees. She said Home Affairs Minister Peter Dutton, by exercising ministerial discretion to let the family stay, would “not restart the boats”.
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Mr Dutton hit back, declaring that the era of Labor bipartisanship on border protection under Bill Shorten’s leadership was over.
Departmental figures requested by The Australian show that as of Monday, 5757 asylum-seekers on bridging visas living in the Australian community were pursuing legal challenges after they were found not to be owed protection under Australian law. All arrived under the Labor government between 2009 and 2013.
According to official figures, the Rudd/Gillard government returned 180 Sri Lankan asylum-seekers in 2010-11, a further 385 in 2011-12 and 2066 in 2012-13 on the basis that they were economic #migrants and not refugees.
“The bipartisan policy on borders championed by Mr Shorten is now dead and (Labor leader) Mr Albanese has reverted back to his position at previous Labor conferences where he has voted against tough border policies,” Mr Dutton told The Australian.
He said Senator Keneally had been “a terrible premier and her lack of judgment is on display again now”.
“People-smugglers would be partying long into the night if Labor wins the next election because Ms Keneally and Mr Albanese have now adopted an effective open-border policy,” Mr Dutton said.
Nadesalingam Murugappan and his wife, Kokilapath#mapriya Nadarasa, came to Australia from Sri Lanka illegally in 2012 and 2013 respectively and were rejected as refugees. They have been living in the rural town of Biloela on bridging visas, which expired last year, having had two children while in Australia.
All their legal bids to challenge the Department of Immigration’s initial ruling have been rejected by multiple courts. They were being returned by charter flight to Sri Lanka on Thursday last week when a court injunction forced their plane to land in Darwin. The family has since been taken to Christmas Island.
Previous High Court appeals on behalf of the two adults and the eldest child have all failed.
However, a court ordered that they should not be removed until at least Wednesday afternoon, giving time to hear the youngest daughter’s claim for protection.
Yesterday, a jet delivered 12 Australian Federal Police officers to Christmas Island from Canberra, triggering speculation that the government was preparing to deport the Tamil family swiftly if they were unsuccessful in Wednesday’s Federal Court hearing.
The Australian has been told the officers who arrived onTuesday are members of the specialist response group. The Australian Federal Police website says it is a squad formed in 2012 to provide “dynamic specialist policing #capabilities that are professional and flexible in support of AFP domestic and international operations”.
As well as the 5757 asylum-#seekers fighting to stay in Australia, another 7900 people who arrived by boat under the previous Labor government have not had refugee claims processed.
Mr Dutton accused Mr Albanese of pursuing the mantle of “Mr Popular” in his calls for the family to stay. He said the family had “dragged out” their stay in Australia and delayed deportation by launching multiple #appeal processes. The move, he said, made it “unfair” for the family to claim they had established strong community connections.
“I do think it’s excessive when it goes on for a number of years,” Mr Dutton said. “I think it’s unfair to the children in this case when the parents have been given a very definite decision when they (were told) they weren’t going to stay in Australia many years ago.
“But clearly every decision-maker right to the High Court has found they’re not refugees.”
Mr Albanese called on Mr Dutton to intervene in the deportation in the same way the minister had intervened in the case of two au pairs he helped release from immigration detention.
After Senator Keneally tried to use Scott Morrison’s faith as a #political wedge over the #Coalition’s position on the Tamil family, Labor’s assistant immigration spokesman, Andrew Giles, on Tuesday broke ranks with his frontbench colleague.
Mr Giles — promoted in June to be the second half of Labor’s home affairs and immigration team — said religion was “not at the core of the issue” of the Tamil family debate, but the former lawyer who represented #asylum-seekers after the 2001 Tampa stand-off insisted allowing the family to stay would not set a #precedent.
Coalition MP Ken O’Dowd, the member for Flynn, which includes the Queensland town of Biloela, said he had been speaking with Mr Dutton, Immigration Minister David Coleman and Deputy Prime Minister Michael McCormack in the past 48 hours after years of making representations on behalf of the family.
Mr O’Dowd wants the family to stay and said their possible #deportation was sad.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
^ Thanks enf
So how much are all these appeals costing us.......as taxpayers ??, were the fook does all the money come from and why are our elected bleeders not introducing legislation to to put an end to this nonsense ?.........................ohhh wait, it must have something to do with some numpty signing an agreement @ the joke called the U.N.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
On the subject of colonisation. I thought of another example that might be a good experiment. Aboriginal colonisation internal to Australia. Sounds kind of bad, but I think you can see which direction I'm heading with it. The point is that Australians don't want to see aboriginals living in poverty and destitution and we would love to see them have self determination and self representation and accountability and acceptance for their failures rather than blaming everybody else. (even if we contributed in the past).
No I'm going to stuff my cynical voice into a bag right now and try and muffle it from screaming out about Land Councils and their ..... >mnmnmnmnmnmnmnnnnmmn<
Could you form an aboriginal government? People who register as aboriginal are then treated by the electoral system as if they lived in a Aboriginal state, even though such a physical state doesn't exist on a map. The size of this state on paper would be small, like the ACT government and they could also have a representative(s) in the lower house and a senator(s) in the upper house proportional to their population.
I would also not put any restriction on who can declare themselves as aboriginal on the electoral role, but it's not a free ticket to the dreamtime. There will be obvious consequences to not being on a local electoral role and the matter of the economy of the aboriginal state. There are a lot of variables you can tinker with, but the ultimate goal would be to create a working system that solves problems and gives a group of people autonomy with responsibility. I like the idea of aboriginal prisons funded and run by the aboriginal government.
Though we all know as a Machiavellian Grand Wizard I love granting people their wishes and watching those wishes consume them like fire on petrol.
Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
So the upshot is instead of being sent back today they are here, wasting our money yet again till at least Friday.
When are our leaders form any side going to grow some balls and say enough and enforce the laws we have?
It's just sending a message to all the would be bludgers and cue jumpers over seas, " Yah, come to Australia, they are a bunch of softcocks and you can get away with anything here, no need to worry about the laws, just scream loud and long enough and you can get anything you want."
The soft cock attitude makes me sick. Get rid of the fkers and be done with it.
alpha0ne (05-09-19),eaglem (05-09-19),VroomVroom (05-09-19)
It's difficult. We have developed all these rules as to who can access our legal system, how, and why, which is supposed to be fair for all. Then we have numpties like the vegan (in the other thread) and situations such as this making it harder for all. The rule, for all legal cases, not just this one, if anyone is rejected at law then they should be on the next plane out, with no further redress.
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
They are not wasting our money george. WE are the ones wasting money by electing tools that won't pass adequate laws to make this endless access to every court (even the kangaroo ones) in the country impossible.
You've been rejected and appealed and lost, now leave and apply to come in the front door if you want. END OF STORY.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
cant some body just tell them to fukoff or is that to hard
george65 (05-09-19)
Jma (05-09-19)
Exactly my thoughts!
There are only 2 options here. The ballot paper is full of others, a good many of them whining wack jobs representing various parties you wouldn't piss on if they were on fire but they all pretty much have preferences so you end up voting for one bunch of morons or the other.
I do try to vote for a group that I think might get a seat to keep the rest of the bastards in line just a little and that's about the best one can do.
It's not been a matter of which party is best for as long as I can remember, it's a matter of who do I think is going to fk the country up the least this time round?
I think that's pretty Obvious.It makes me wonder who really runs AU, our elected leaders............or the leftist MSM
From the bit of attention I have paid to this, it seems to me the Gubbermint is for pissing them off but is being pussy whipped by the leftist MSM making their usual song and dance when they don't get their own way. They need to have the balls to stand up to them and fk them off and be done with it.
The fundamental thing of these people demanding to be let into a place where they are not wanted seems unreal to me.
Maybe these ones that are protesting for them to stay should take them into their homes and take over all their needs the gubbermint would normally provide for like Medical, housing , child endowment, Education for the rug rats and everything else.
In other words, You can stay but you get jack shit from the gubbermint or any other social service. Pay for it all yourself ( No unemployment benefits either of course) or your soft of heart and head supporters can pay for you and the rug rats out of their own pockets for the rest of your days and theirs.
I bet my arse they would be on the next plane out of here if that was the deal they were given.
I hear Russia and China are lovely this time of year. Show up on their doorstep and try your Bullshit and see how you go with them.
hinekadon (05-09-19)
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