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    Wait, no need for the percentage conversion, I found an online calculator to help Dilettantes like me work this kind of scientific stuff out. Maths was never my strong suit.

    From the online calculator, the 1950 level of co2 of 300 PPM was 0.03 %.
    Adding a bit in for good measure, if we take today levels at 450 PPM, that works out at 0.45%.
    I'm not smart enough to work out what a 0.15% increase is over 1950 levels is but I believe it's in the 100ths of one percent? Someone smart please correct me either way and work it out.

    Just doesn't sound as scary when you put it in simple terms like that does it?



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    Quote Originally Posted by hinekadon View Post
    Gee wiss the guy with the meter has been around a long time ! yep theres no fudging the figures politically when you know the guy with the meter whos making the measurements so accurately for so long EH but whoops nasa hasnt been around for that long has it . climate.nasa.govt oh shit the figures might be just slightly manipulated to suit the funders of nasa who are oops the politicians . But we can fool them by telling them we counted the rings in a thousand year old tree oops I mean a 800 thousand year old tree on the front lawn of the Al Gores house yep that covers all the bases so dont call me a greenie leftard HAHAHAHA you are right trash too much crap

    I am no scientist but they know it by examining deep ice cores from the Antarctic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    Wait, no need for the percentage conversion, I found an online calculator to help Dilettantes like me work this kind of scientific stuff out. Maths was never my strong suit.

    From the online calculator, the 1950 level of co2 of 300 PPM was 0.03 %.
    Adding a bit in for good measure, if we take today levels at 450 PPM, that works out at 0.45%.
    I'm not smart enough to work out what a 0.15% increase is over 1950 levels is but I believe it's in the 100ths of one percent? Someone smart please correct me either way and work it out.

    Just doesn't sound as scary when you put it in simple terms like that does it?

    The increase from 300ppm to 450ppm is 50% !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    The increase from 300ppm to 450ppm is 50% !
    Not as the total percentage of Co2 in the atmosphere over all it's not and that is as I pointed out what I was questioning.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post

    then you are a true Greenie.
    I'd rather you just infer I was a liar than call me that.
    As I have said before, I'm not against doing the right thing by the environment/ planet, I am against virtue signalling bullshit that pretends to be doing something good but in effect is worse than doing the same old thing and that happens in thousands of instances.

    It is currently not possible to be 100% self sustainable without sacrificing certain needs but these needs can be drastically reduced.
    Not sure if self sustainable and self sufficient are the same thing at least as far as energy and fuel are concerned but I think one can come reall close depending on how much time and money you want to put in it. I could take my house off grid with minimal trouble, that's what I'm ultimately preparing for however it's far cheaper and more convenient for me to stay on the grid right now. I use it as my battery and it's the cheapest battery anyone could ever have and it has unlimited capacity as well.

    I have over 20Kw worth of panels now, all used and I easily have the space to put up another 20KW. I don't even have the north roof of the house with anything on it yet and 5Kw of panels could fit there and I still have the front eastern side bare as well. Already making more power than I can use and being grid connected it makes no sense to install more Right now. When I loose my analouge spinny power meters, I'll have a legit system installed on the north roof and get approval for a 10 KW system. I'll then run the other DIY setups I have as I do now and backfeed a ship load of power that I'll then get a FIT for. I may be able to break even or even make a profit from it. Going to be happy with what I have for the meantime though.

    Don't do any of it for environmental reasons, just couldn't give a shit about that and it's not a motivator in any way. I do it for purely selfish purposes for my own satisfaction.

    I am going to use an oil burning heater this winter i'm building and I think taking the major load off the AC for heating will mean I can break even on winter consumption. I force an estimated reading at the end of winter which allows me to make up the use over spring ( and plenty more ) so the winter bill is all but eliminated anyway. I have filtered 400L of oil in the last couple of weeks which should be more than enough for the heater i'm building being 4000Kwh worth of heat but I'll do at least another 200l as one can never have enough oil in reserve. I used to keep 4000L on hand but only running one vehicle on it now and I don't have any friends or travellers dropping in like I used to so that reduces need a lot too. I don't need to process the Burner fuel to near the same level as I do the motor fuel.


    This shit is all low cost DIY.
    I have also bought everything used/ second hand bar the wiring..... and even a fair bit of that has come from other systems.
    I built it up over about a year but my total costs are well under $2500. Being all electric and having the weather we do here along with having to run pumps for the septic etc, average bills in the area are in the $1000- 2000 range. Just a part of the lifestyle we choose. My bills average around $250 and $100 of that is supply charges. They could be a lot lower but because I am playing the system I try to have a " passable" bill and am happy to pay a little in order to not pay a lot more.
    I made my ROI in about 10 Months, if that. I bought a few KW of panels with me from the old house and quickly bought more and put them up to keep our Bills minimal. Whenever I ask for money and the mrs asks why and I say for solar shit, there is never an argument. She knows what we pay in power and hears other people at work talking about their bills so knows what a good wicket we are on.

    I have described what I have done in a lot of places and they typical reaction from the greenwashed types it to carry on about legalities and regulations and other softcock concerns. The reality is most of them wouldn't have the first damn clue. Neither did I 3 years ago but Unlike these green whingers I use the fantastic resource of the net to learn and I am not afraid to get my hands dirty and try things. That alone makes you realise 90% of the parroted mantras on the net are purist and misleading Bullshit. If these grren goobers were a 10th as committed to their cause as they say, they would be doing everything they could.
    I have discussed simple things like how they can take their hot water off grid and Legally do a DIY solar PV water heating setup. Number of greenwashed that have even entertained the idea? Zero. Several other deniers have set it up and all been successful.

    sorry for babbling off, back on topic:
    All good with me. interesting to hear what other people have done.

    Those living in tower cities are the problem. There you will find the most climate change whingers but they have highest needs, consumer idiots with the least ability to be self sustainable.
    SPOT ON!
    Time and time again the ones that do the least whinge the loudest!
    They are always at gubbermints to do more when they do nothing themselves and actually can't because of their lifestyle choices. They are also without doubt the most inept types that have to call in a spary to change a power point or a plumber to change a tap washer. They think they get panels on the roof and a Tesla battery on the wall and they are saving the whole fking world.


    Because of their work for money and spend attitude, which IMO is a choice but they all have been conditioned to live and think so and can't imagine any other way, in fact if you question them they will get aggressive and no doubt some reading this will, any of those people who complain about climate change are HYPOCRITES.
    Again, spot on. I have shot down so many of those that whinge at my position by showing I don't use any fossil fuel in my vehicle and my power consumption from the grid is a fraction of theirs despite all their " Turn everything off at the power point because it might use 3w sitting there" which over a year adds up to boiling the kettle a few times. I have a luxury lifestyle but I have set myself up to be able to afford it and not worry about the cost by being self sufficient as is worthwhile. I don't need to worry about how much the washing machine or TV uses on standby of if the house has the best insulation because I make more than enough power to cover it without worrying. The other thing is none of these green washed can go near me ( or you) because we have done everything ourselves and know things through experience they haven't even thought of and wouldn't know what to do with if they did.
    Like I said, the majority don't know the difference between a Kw and a KWH and couldn't wire a light switch if their life depended on it.

    All their save the earth ideas are based on things they need to pay someone else to do for them.

    It are actually those people who chose to live like me and George(if he is telling the truth) who could !
    No, I'm completely full of shit and don't know a thing of which I'm talking about. You should ignore Everything I say so as not to even have to question it.

    Also not trying to sell anyone anything or convince them of anything. Only people I'm trying to please is myself and my family. I do that well and make myself very content. I get a LOT of pleasure and satisfaction out of my solar setup by being able to use all the power I want and not having to worry about the cost. Mrs can use the dryer whenever she wants, Daughter can stay in the shower till she looks like a shriveld prune, I can sit back happily not giving a fk other than to be happy that they are and I don't have to whinge and carry on about the power bill.

    The way I live is not to conserve but to use as much as we want. I don't even care about the water we use. I put in tanks to catch the Bio output and that goes to watering the garden rather than just pump it on the lawn. We get to use the water twice as my mate says. I have put water tanks on nearly every Downpipe and blocked others so the water goes into the tanks I have. Again, green care factor zero. Allows me the luxury of still having a garden without a stupid water bill.
    Growing my own Veggies, well thats nothing to do at all with cost actually and also not near as successful as I'd like. Reasons behind that are I think a lot of store bought Fruit and veg is completely tasteless and I enjoy the peace and calm spending time in the garden gives me. I have over 50 Tomato plants atm and bringing in about a Kg or more of tomatoes each day. Enjoying a beautiful Bolognese the mrs cooked with our own tomatoes right now. The rellos have already told me numerous times not to come to Christmas dinner without my dried tomatoes I make and The neighbour seems to look forward to the Tomatoes I give him.

    Corn seems to be a complete and utter failure this year but I am going to have more Pumpkins than I know what to do with. I don't even like pumpkin that much but I'll enjoy giving them away to people that do and will enjoy them much more than store bought. Also Growing Cucumbers and Broccoli which I also hate but my daughter loves what I grow and can't get enough so again, purely selfish reasons which are not financial for once nor environmental.

    When the kids were growing up, money for us was bloody tight. About the time I got into the oil thing and why I got into veg, was because sometimes it was a matter of fuel in the car to take the kids to school or food on the table. That''s not fun. I bought an old merc, quite famous on Veg forums in the day as I catalogued my exploits with it and that was the first veg mobile. The change and relief that gave us was Immeasurable. Not only did it mean the fuel bills were eliminated, it meant we could afford to go for drives and picnics and take the kids to the beach on weekends where as Piddly as a thing as that was, was a Fking big deal when you couldn't afford to do it before. What was a joke to people at first became a fascination and then became virtual celebrity status. I'd have kids and parents coming up to me nearly every day at school asking if the car really ran on fish and chip oil and then I was getting asked to come and do talks on it at different schools and with different groups. Even got asked to do a talk on it for my gun club so many people were amazed with it. It was a LOT of fun and bit of an ego trip as well. Don't know how many times I went to my kids high schools to show off the Veg Mobiles but it was quite a few.

    Thankfully things have changed considerably and money is no longer the issue it once was and hasn't been for some time. Even so, I have always enjoyed the independence and self sufficiency of the oil thing long after the financial relief became a Minor benefit and the solar proclivity is giving me the same sense of satisfaction, independence and DIY fun the oil caper did. Pretty much taken them both as far as I want now so Looking for what I can do next as the rewards I have got out of them both is Highly addictive and immensely satisfying.

    I have been looking at over the last week or so water harvesting. They can do that with great success in certain areas where there is Fog but none here in summer and I can't see a worthwhile way of gathering condensation.... yet.
    As the fog harvesting is simple and cheap to do, I might look at doing it in winter just so I can learn more about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    Wait, no need for the percentage conversion, I found an online calculator to help Dilettantes like me work this kind of scientific stuff out. Maths was never my strong suit.

    From the online calculator, the 1950 level of co2 of 300 PPM was 0.03 %.
    Adding a bit in for good measure, if we take today levels at 450 PPM, that works out at 0.45%.
    I'm not smart enough to work out what a 0.15% increase is over 1950 levels is but I believe it's in the 100ths of one percent? Someone smart please correct me either way and work it out.

    Just doesn't sound as scary when you put it in simple terms like that does it?
    You made a slight error there George.
    300PPM is as you say 0.03%
    450PPM is 0.045% not 0.45%; you shifted the decimal point left one notch by accident I would say.

    So the difference is 0.015%
    That's 15 thousandths of 1 percent.

    Hope that helps clarify your maths for today.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    The information is out there; you just have to let it in."

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    Not as the total percentage of Co2 in the atmosphere over all it's not and that is as I pointed out what I was questioning.
    You(and others as I see it) need to learn to understand relativity(not talking about Einstein).


    Our body contains 0.4% of our body weight in salt.
    If it were to suddenly raise to 0.75% it COULD be lethal.
    But the way you are seeing it the additional 0.35% does not seem a lot to you!


    0.4% is 300g (75kg human) and is vital for our bodily functions, just like a certain amount of CO2 is vital for life on this planet.
    But adding 'only' 0.35% of our body weight is 263g.


    Try eating half a pound of pure salt at once!
    Your are likely to puke it all up.


    Something like that seems to be happening to our atmosphere.
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    ...and Qld & Vic get new gas fired power-stations... ... evidence of the govt thinking seriously about climate change. As far as I can tell, the powers-that-be will burn every last kg of fossil fuel (regardless if it's coal. gas or oil) that's there in the ground, regardless...why? Profits...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    So the difference is 0.015%
    That's 15 thousandths of 1 percent.

    Hope that helps clarify your maths for today.
    Yes it does and thank you very much!
    Now I know why the green cult never want to put their numbers in simple terms. As I knew it would be, not nearly as dramatic as they like to make out with sensationalised figures.

    15,000ths of one percent isn't going to get anyone alarmed and I'll also bet it is completely and utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

    The green lefty panic merchants love to blow everything out of proportion and make it sound as doomsday as possible. Another question I have asked many times is in reference to people quoting so many tons of Co2 released. They might say 1000 tons was generated by XXX but they never tell you how many tons of CO2 there were to start with.
    If there is 100 Billion tons of Co2 already out there, well a million tons more is going to be a tiny and again insignificant fraction, not the end of the world scenario as they always make out.

    That's exactly where the green washed loose a huge amount of ground. They can't just state the facts ( because it does not promote the cult narrative they want to spread) they always have to blow things out of proportion and make everything sound as dramatic as possible. That's when they aren't knowingly telling outright and Complete LIES.
    The fact they have to do this is in itself a transparent tell tale that the facts aren't anything like they make out. Who every does take a known Habitual Liar seriously? Only a fool would.

    All the fools are already accounted for in believing and peddling this crap, that leaves the people with bit more of a brain whom aren't going to fall for the lies and garbage that's being peddled.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Our body contains 0.4% of our body weight in salt.
    If it were to suddenly raise to 0.75% it COULD be lethal.
    Well, lets put that in real numbers.

    The equation would be 1/15,00th of .4 % of our body weight.
    Again I'm not smart enough to work that out but I'll go out on a limb and put my hand up to eat twice that and see what effect it has.
    If I weigh 100 Kg, .4% would be 400 grams? and 1/15,000th of that is probably a shit load less than I put on my dinner at night or what is on a handfull of salted peanuts.... Or what I put on the dried tomatoes I am doing atm.

    Knowing Poisons and medications also go on bodyweight, I'd take another guess and say if I took 1/15,000ths of .4% of my body weight in Arsenic, I'm probably not going to be all that sick even if I notice it at all. Could be wrong but seems plausible to me.

    That being the case, it would seem to me logically, a .15000th% of a percent in co2 levels is not going to make one scrap of difference to the earth.
    It would also be interesting to get an estimate of the amount of CO2 Released with the current bushfires and how much has been released when different volcanos have erupted.
    When talking in 15000th's, they may just emit enough to actually be measurable.

    In any case, I'm sure the fires have released enough co2 to be comparable to tens of thousands of cars for a year or more so WTF is all the panic and ramming this crap down our throats about other than useful idiots furthering a money making scam for big biz and gubbermints?

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    I think some people are missing the point between a percentage change or the percentage increase in the change.
    As we now have hot weather a simple analogy may be helpful.
    Assume the following:
    Today the temperature is 20C and tomorrow the temperature is 40C. The temperature increase is is 20C, but the percentage increase is 100%. The problem seems to be the difference between the percentage increase and the percentage change.
    Remember it is all called statistics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    Well, lets put that in real numbers.

    The equation would be 1/15,00th of .4 % of our body weight.
    Again I'm not smart enough to work that out but I'll go out on a limb and put my hand up to eat twice that and see what effect it has.
    If I weigh 100 Kg, .4% would be 400 grams? and 1/15,000th of that is probably a shit load less than I put on my dinner at night or what is on a handfull of salted peanuts.... Or what I put on the dried tomatoes I am doing atm.

    Knowing Poisons and medications also go on bodyweight, I'd take another guess and say if I took 1/15,000ths of .4% of my body weight in Arsenic, I'm probably not going to be all that sick even if I notice it at all. Could be wrong but seems plausible to me.

    That being the case, it would seem to me logically, a .15000th% of a percent in co2 levels is not going to make one scrap of difference to the earth.
    It would also be interesting to get an estimate of the amount of CO2 Released with the current bushfires and how much has been released when different volcanos have erupted.
    When talking in 15000th's, they may just emit enough to actually be measurable.
    ARRRG......there is so much wrong there I feel like giving up trying to explain the maths to you.

    One last try:

    If 0.04% of our atmosphere is approximately 3 TRILLION tons(ballpark)
    and it rose to a level 0.015% higher than that
    you get a shitload of 1.125 TRILLION tons more!

    As for arsenic, there must be less than 50 parts per BILLION in a single litre of drinking water for it not to make you sick.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    ARRRG......there is so much wrong there I feel like giving up trying to explain the maths to you.
    I feel your pain…….I swore I would never again become involved in a discussion of climate change.

    But there is so much wrong on this thread, I couldn’t leave you stranded as the sole voice of reason.

    Those who think that they’ve just shot down the central argument of climate change might care to peruse the following article:

    Difference Between a Percent & a Percentage Point



    (Trigger alert: The article contains words of more than two syllables)

    Taking the example numbers of .03 and .045……

    the difference between these two numbers is…..

    .015 PERCENTAGE POINTS……...NOT .015 percent.....as suggested by some.

    The difference between the two numbers expressed as a PERCENTAGE is:

    50%.....that’s FIFTY PERCENT.

    So, an increase from .03% CO2 to .045% CO2 is an increase of 50% in the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.

    Uncle, you might be interested in this report released in November, 2019.

    It was prepared by those raving, ranting, left-wing green fktards at the U.S. Department of Defense.

    Implications of Climate Change for the U.S. Army



    If only they’d been reading Austech……they’d have known that there is nothing to worry about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post

    If 0.04% of our atmosphere is approximately 3 TRILLION tons(ballpark)
    and it rose to a level 0.015% higher than that
    you get a shitload of 1.125 TRILLION tons more!
    Better give up trying to explain it then.

    To get 1 from 3 to me is over 30%. That's a bloody long way from .015% and even my crook mathematical skill can see that does not compute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thala Dan View Post
    Uncle, you might be interested in this report released in November, 2019.

    It was prepared by those raving, ranting, left-wing green fktards at the U.S. Department of Defense.
    You said it!

    Reading it only confirms it.
    The fact that is written by a defence department in the way it is really does create cause for deep concern. Not about globull warming, but how deep seated this scam is and have far the lefty green infection has spread and permeated.

    The Chinese, Koreans and Russians must be pissing their pants with laughter reading that.

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    You can all bang on about percentages or amounts or parts per million, but the significant fact is that CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing at an alarming rate, and the more there is the less heat will escape from the planet, and thus the average temperature will increase.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerTheDoger View Post
    You can all bang on about percentages or amounts or parts per million, but the significant fact is that CO2 in the atmosphere is increasing at an alarming rate, and the more there is the less heat will escape from the planet, and thus the average temperature will increase.
    I hate winter so if it warms up a few degrees, all good by me.
    Not much difference between 35o and 40o so that end of it is acceptable too. I put the AC on at 30 so makes no difference at all.


    I saw a news report today where the clearly lefty journo was outright attacking the PM. I don't think it was a real good idea to go on holidays when he did whether he could do anything or not but, He did earn my respect though when the interviewer started banging on about doing more about globull warming to prevent the fires we are having and the PM said ( paraphrased) he was going to fk the country and kill jobs when we already were meeting all our targets and agreements and on track to exceed them.

    He also stated the bleeding obvious that the leftards seem to refuse to accept that no single leader of and country can do anything on their own to affect the climate and linking the fires to Action or inaction on climate change was ridiculous. Left even the whining journo having to agree with the plain inarguable facts.
    Guy won my respect. He's clearly not going to bow down to the screaming leftwards and fk the country for this stupid fake Ideal any more thyan international pressure requires him to.

    If we are meeting our emissions targets and agreements, what more to these sooking morons want and WTF aren't they protesting and carrying on about the countries that aren't living up to these BS targets instead of pissing and whining at the gubbermint of a country that is?

    Whether you believe in Globull warming or not, here again is a single proof positive example of why the imbeciles that carry on about this aren't worth paying a scrap of attention to and have an agenda of disruption and anarchy which has nothing to do with what they make so much noise about.

    They are getting what they wanted and more and still not fking happy.

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    People may have lambasted Tony Abbott when he was leader, but he showed his true colours during this last firestorm. He was one of the volunteers getting their hands dirty and actually out fighting the fires. Good on him!
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    At the end of the Day this is all just a scam for Big biz and Gubbermints to profit from.
    Grand conspiracy thinking is a symptom of irrational thinking. It's caused by inventing causes for incorrect identification of problems.
    You might want to do some self checking ... when the word conspiracy is part of my argument, reassess my argument because it is probably wrong.

    That being the case, the whole green / unreliable ideal is nothing but a joke and the people championing it fools, liars and complete and utter hypocrites.... all at once.
    Yes, but don't confuse that ideology with the correct course of action.

    Ok, so now you might have to just entertain my following fanciful statement as fact for the duration of this paragraph.
    Remember the assumption is global warming is real.
    The Greens are idelogical idiots who are always wrong but got lucky this time.
    Grand conspiracies don't exist, they are in your head and not reality.

    Now this does not mean that people will not try and take advantage of the situation.
    And that is not a unidirectional statement. We might suggest for example that it is not in the interests of oil companies to reduce production.
    We might also suggest that it is in the interests of oil companies to reduce production.
    It's not a grand conspiracy, it just human nature to take advantage of changing circumstances and it is wrong to assume they're steering the course.

    Politicians are easily confused and just as easily coerced. Again, not a conspiracy. We know how lobbyists work.
    Somebody secretly steering a course is scary but just not true. The truth is much scarier, there is nobody at the helm.


    Just Fking annoying they get to drive the rest of us insane with their stupidity and why they should all be registered to compensate us when they finally back themselves into the corner and have to admit it was all a crock of shit and a moronic ideal.
    That isn't going to happen. If what you say is true that will never ever happen because they can never ever be wrong.
    It's not a win, it's a stalemate at best, and you're completely wrong at worst, but like the greens, you can just keep doubling down until you get any win to save face.

    The correct play is to realise that we're wrong and they are right this time. (again, dumb luck - it happens)
    Accept that the problem is real. The next correct play is to realise the greens do not have any answers. They never did.
    They only have the same ideology and again, only with dumb luck do some of the solutions align with their politics, they ignore all the others.

    They have no interest in solving a real world problem, they only want everybody to think they are the solution.
    Yep... they will blame global warming for everything and they are going to keep doing it.

    They cried wolf and there never was one. Now this time they cry wolf and one shows up after the fact.
    As much as I want to shoot the (false) messenger we need that bullet to fight to wolf. I prefer to throw the false prophet to the wolves, but it still doesn't get rid of the wolf.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    I hate winter so if it warms up a few degrees, all good by me.
    Yes a warmer winter would be nice.

    Unfortunately climate change does not necessarily mean that winters will be warmer. While the current change will result in higher average temperatures all over the planet these will result in longer and more heat waves, more storms and more extremes as far as temperature goes. This means that hot days will be hotter but cold days may be colder, winds will be stronger and so on.

    Looks like we have stuffed it. Some prompt and drastic changes now may slow this down, but we might need one of Scott Morrison's miracles to reverse it. Realistically probably unlikely.

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