Quoting myself there to point out my words ~ I meant what I said ... online chat portal, *not* email.If that had happened to me, I'd already be online having a chat with ebay about it
Email can be very boring, and you can be fobbed off into extended reply time-frames, and the rules of engagement aren't quite as defined as online chat. With online chat, everything's more immediate, recorded... and defined.
I know I keep mentioning the words 'game' & 'sport' with this shizzle, but perhaps I should elucidate a bit more --- when you're having an exchange using any online chat portal, it's a different world (compared to email) They can't really delay in response, because the exchange is carried out real time at the rate that a face to face conversation takes place. On top of that, you can be pretty sure the person typing at the other end, is following a prompt/reply card being displayed on their monitor, so when you say something/ask a question, they match your response with the card they're following, and answer appropriately from the list of possible answers displayed for them to use ... understand that. Now-a-days, your first hurdle is trying to ascertain whether that 'live' online chat is with an actual person, or a piece of AI software (and if it is, knowing how to tie up the AI so it necessitates human intervention is the trick).
For the most part with online chat portals, you know for sure what *you* want to say and what questions you want to ask, and likewise with some degree of accuracy, you know what the respondent at the other end is going to type in reply - that is particularly so when they're using call center/customer support software. Ergo, what I do is open a simple textfile editor, and actually type the entire online chat script I'm going to use, *before* I start the online chat =) This includes all the answers to the questions I anticipate to get asked, and I try to predict and map out how *I* want the online chat interchange to go.
Once that is so, I'll start the online chat in the browser, with the text-editor open beside it, and merely cut&paste the text I've prepared into the 'conversation' I've pre-staged. On a linux box, that's swipe any text while holding left mouse button down, and paste same anywhere you want with middle mouse button ; that's a powerful weapon..like a mini-gun =) I will go into one of these online chat portals, armed to the teeth...ie; not only will I have my script at the ready, in adjacent browser tabs, I'll have their ebay ad page up, in another tab or 2 ebay T&C's and more than likely any ebay messages sent/received ..I will cut&paste anything and everything I want into the 'chat' and I'm not typing a thing ... in fact, you have to be kinda clever at it so they (or it in the AI case) don't think *you* are some sort of bot, being able to reply so quickly with so much text ...so what you do, is type a space into the online chat box, which triggers the 'other person is typing' message, then pick what you're going to c&p into reply, and it just looks like you can type at 160wpm =)
I try to 'grade' myself on how well I prepared the script .. which boils down to the point of did I get asked any question that actually required me to manually type anything, and then, how many instances of same... you score it akin to trials motorbike comps B)
You are certainly the master of this Game!
You should be getting free stuff piled at you door from these scamming types.
I have never used the online chat but did see it this morning when I was browsing. I was thinking if I went that way which was the lower likelihood to have information pages open so I could cut and paste the transaction number, emails other relevant details. Hasn't thought of a prepared script though.
Got the 48w Lights and send a very polite message requesting a return Refund. Said I am in isolation and can't go out so they will have to send a courier to pick up the lights. I thought that was a nice touch I might be able to use for a while to make them not worry about returning the dodgy items.
Haven't heard from them or the 200/ 6W light seller so I think I'll open a return case with them. I have left neg feedback but does that disappear if I open the return option?
Question first - I haven't looked at the algorithm behavior they've employed TBH ... some sites the online chat element is straight in your face from the landing page, these are usually bots. Others only appear after a certain amount of time is spent browsing the site. Really trick ones detect the fact you're searching for a specific item on their site for a long period of time and have yet to place an order (infers you can't find what you're looking for) ; these are usually living breathing beings. You don't worry -which- chat portal you find, even if it's totally unrelated to what you want to chat about ; it's all the same company/contract/software, all interactive data is collated. I *think* I might have noticed the ebay chatbox widget pop-up bottom of page if you clicked on any 'read full T&C' links and scrolled right done to the bottom ; a lot of sites use that setup as well. Hopefully folks read this much, and come to the realization that so much of this stuff is made to look like 'personal service', but it's just the application of human/social behavior and buying studies, realized into a suite of software marketing tools, and that can be a good thing. Why? Those structures and operations are 'static', and the type of people they target is 'fixed'.Originally Posted by george65
Umm...['how can I explain this so that it might be understood'] ... think like this : we will widely concur that all these shonky ebay sellers, are very much alike - they advertise the same sort of goods, with the same dodgy Engrish and meaningless logos, and they say the same sort of things in messages back&forth when dealing with (disgruntled) buyers. In fact, their replies are too much the same, and it's more than coincidence you find they follow the same predicable reply pattern, strategies, using very much the same wording -- people are too different, what are the odds 1000 sellers like this all respond the same ; they are following a script as well, the same script...where did you think the idea of me creating my own scripts came from? I have mentioned this before, and some may have thought I was joking ... I wasn't -- I consider Sun Tzu's 'The Art of War' () and Robert M. Pirsig's 'Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance' () to be essential study for in playing this game. Actually, everyone should read them anyway 8^)
O'K ...guess what just turned up? Pat yourself on the back if you guessed right that the lights george65 'recommended' to me have just arrived...
...and here, I'm to expect they'll be anything less than 48watts ; we will dins out in due course, however, item Triage has already begun ~ even before opening the box, I've noticed everything is lose inside and jangling about, so first cab off the rank is to grab a small vid of the package -not- showing any signs of being damaged in transit and yet the contents rattle about indicating poor packaging consideration. This helps expedite any DOA claim, by establishing the premise that had the goods been packaged more securely, they might have arrived in 'as new' condition instead. They're probably fine of course, but there's always Murphy...and inside an unopened box is one of his haunts =)
Last edited by wotnot; 26-03-20 at 02:21 PM.
Jma (26-03-20)
When did you order your lights Wotnot? I ordered Mine on the 17th and got them yesterday.
..as it turns out, it was the fixing hardware rattling around, but they were in a plastic bag and captured by a cardboard fold in the bottom of the box. Right off the bat, we've already got identity crisis ;
...well, at least the '02' suffix is consistent, exactly the same lights inside however.
Package including:
2 pcs 48W LED Work Lights (SPOT beam)
Features:
16 x 3 Watt Super White LED
Suits 12V or 24V vehicles
3200 Lumen output
Ultra Low current draw
100% Sealed lighting system, resistant to moisture, dirt and dust ingress
Almost no heat produced, safe for confined work spaces
Stainless steel mounting kit
IP67 rated
Cast Aluminum Alloy Housing
1 Year Warranty
Product Specification :
. LED Power: 48W
. Operating Voltage: 10-30V DC
. Waterproof rate: IP 67
. 16pcs*3w high intensity LEDs
. Optional Color: Black.
. Color Temperature:6000K
. Material Diecast aluminum housing
. Lens material:PC
. Mounting Bracket: Stainless Steel
. Opitonal Beam: spot beam
. 30000 hours above life time
I've included it all even though it reiterates upon itself multiple times - it helps fasten the facts.
* SPOT &/or spot light -- this infers a single beam of light, and typically a single light source - with modern COB type LED elements, you can achieve a spotlight effect with a suitable lense. The reality of this is further down
* Opitonal Beam: spot beam ...this refers to the LEDs used, they're available in 3 styles usually plain/diffused lense/spot beam lense ; the latter is what they've used -- you don't have a spotlight ; you have 16 LEDs in a grid, each with a spot beam lense molding
* Suits 12V or 24V vehicles/Operating Voltage: 10-30V DC ...okay, then..
* 3200 Lumen output ...what? At 12vdc or 24vdc?...you can't have it both ways ; if you're going to have the same lumen output over that voltage range, you need more than just wires and LEDs series together
Actually. you look at the lumen figure, and rough it back to a wattage estimate based on light source type ...ummm... BE AWARE they've chosen..
*Color Temperature:6000K ...because the human eye perceives that colour as being brighter than a light of the same power but a different light bandwidth...ie; 5600K
...and work it out there. Seems we need about 36watts to pull this off.
Time to open one up, and just see how it's wired up...umm, no, that would require destructive disassembly it would seem.
*Material Diecast aluminum housing ... if we're working on the same periodic table. that alloy is 7% aluminium, 63% slag iron from a foundry, and 30% depleted uranium for added effect =) Joking ofc, but the Al % is pretty low
*Lens material:PC ...no dammit, plural ..lenses, 16 per light.. [Kraw! Not Craw!]
*Almost no heat produced, safe for confined work spaces / Ultra Low current draw ..we'll see, the calculation suggests the need for 3amps @ 12vd to make 3200 lumen... we have the technology, we will find out
*IP67 rated ...really? We can test that out too
Test 1 goes something like this ; feed a light 28volts for an extended amount of time and see if it heats up enough to eventually be dissipating 48watts of energy of which only 36watts (or whatever it turns out to be) is being converted to light.
The fun begins... or has begun as it were - the same austpost email you get telling you package has been delivered, is mimicked in the email to the seller ; the clock is ticking.
The ebay chat seems to always be a chat bot at first, when it can't answer a question thrown at it it then passes you to a human bot who usually quickly gets to the bottom of the matter.
I discovered some time ago it was the best way to get a matter sorted if the seller's not coming to the party, and they auto email you a transcript of the conversation when it's finished.
March 19th, arrived local PO this morning
Agreed, exactly what I was saying .. I'm so.. heartened ..to find I'm not alone in this regard =) It's another reason I'm always calm, eloquent & polite with my ebay messages ; I (we, all buyers/sellers) can pull out the live chat trump card anytime we like, and when you do and they review the case by reading in realtime the exchanges between yourself and the seller, if you look good and like you're following the rules to the point of pain & the seller not, it's always in your favour.
Btw...ever get bored enough to go 'bot baiting' and see how far you can drag the bot around with BS before some human notices? =)
You probably won't have to try real hard.*IP67 rated ...really? We can test that out too
Any of these LED lights have one little drawback, mounting them as a worklight unless you seal up around where the power lead goes in the water will get in there.
If they're mounted up the other way like a driving light they'd probably be ok unless completely submerged.
What you end up with is this:
That one I forgot to seal around the lead, it's only been on there for a week.
Lol, no not yet, I've found all the bots pretty much useless so far, fleabay, the bank, websites etc..
No doubt they'll improve over time though.
That is interesting.
A few years back I got a pair of the round 24W lights ( which really were 24W) and mounted them on an aluminium bar. I mounted a 7Ah SLA battery under them and an underwater camera Between the lights.
I used those things for Months about 2.5 Hours in the morning under water and about 4 hours in the afternoon and NEVER saw a bit of moisture in them.
I later used a small light bar but from memory, that did get a Slight bit of moisture in it.
In this setup I was more concerned about the SLA battery. I bought a few for $20 so I wasn't real concerned if I went through one a week but they held up fine. I regularly ran them to nothing which is a big no no especially on those things but they didn't die on me. I ended up making a couple of these rigs and they were real good. The last one I did I mounted 2 Round 48W lights and 2 Battery's on it. Heavy as hell out the water but worked brilliant in the water. Still needed more battery though.
Looking at the square lights just now, I can see what you mean. The wire passes through Grommets but does not appear to actually be moulded to the wire or sealed.
I'll be sure to put a big dob of silicone around them even though I most likely will mount the cable to the bottom. Would seem to me after you give the things a run they would heat up and then when switched off cool down and suck in moist air .
Before I put the silicone on I might run them a while to get them warm. I'll then put the silicone on them and then put them under a fan. If the internal air does contract, it will pull the silicone in any passages that could introduce water and moisture and seal better when it cures. Might even try pushing some silicone around the mating surfaces with a blunt Syringe.
Might have been better quality those ones, with proper fitting quality grommets perhaps.
Been putting silicone on any I use for many years now, just to be sure.
The angle the cable is anchored at after it comes out of the lights can make a difference also, if it's pulled across at an angle immediately leaving the light it can open a gap.
I usually mount the lights where I want, put silicone all around down where the wire goes with it held roughly centred, then before it cures anchor the cable where desired then check for & fill any gaps after moving the wire, seems to work well if I don't forget to do them.
The standard nozzle that comes with the tubes is usually ok for getting it down where the wire goes provided it's not cut too short.
If you want to water-proof these things beyond reasonable belief and approach IP69, I fill at the cable entry point with (on these lights after the fill pour is cured, I'd do another run around the edge of the lense to fill the gap between the metal body) ; the actual cable/sheath type used then become you next weak point.
So the assembled lights tips the scales at 515gm ... looks and feels like a sturdy metal housing, large heatsink area/fins on the back...seems like the casting wall thickness is about 3mm. I'll cut a square centimeter out of one of the fins, clear off the paint, and get it's density in g/cm³ The black rubberized sheath of the twin core seems quite sturdy ... we'll see what happens to it if it gets near chlorine or petroleum products ~ sometimes waterproof = do not expose to petrol fumes =)
Trusty power supply at the ready....small irony there, got 60% refund on that unit 'coz a seller had advertised it at thrice the current output rating it was actually capable of, but up to it's actual rating it works very well... even my Fluke agrees with it's LED display...and got this;
Turn on threshold is 8vdc -- down at this voltage current is 2.33amp
Increase voltage to 12vdc ..it's an unrealistic voltage in automotive usage, but they quoted it so check there .. current consumption is now 1.73amp
Increase voltage to 24vdc -- current now down to 0.87amp
Increase voltage to 29vdc -- I've seen a lot of (particularly older) 24volt tractors do a sustained 29volt charge rate after glowplug/crank .. current now down to 0.73amp
I've left that light sitting on my bench for 30mins at that near maximum voltage rating ~ metal housing reached a toasty 55C but didn't fail - I've now got it running at 25.5vdc @ 0.80amp which is a more realistic 24volt test.
What you have to take note of here, is regardless of voltage input level, light output remains the same. So quickly math the picture above -- 8volt power usage is 18.64watts, 12volts @ 20.76w, 24volts is using 20.88w, and at burn you bastard 29volts it's at 21.17watts.
All for the same light output. Must be a constant current buck inside or suchlike, let's strangle it for current @ 12vdc ...haha, oo-ay... =) At 12vdc nominal current draw is about 1.7amp, but by the time you limit it to 1.6amp all the LEDs flicker ..drop it down to 1.55amps and it folds and goes into 1Hz motorboat mode ..and gets stuck in a charge/discharge loop .. you've got to feed it starting current to break the cycle.
Of course, the LEDs have always been the elephant in the room here ~ time to go back at look at that seller's page again -->
All I'm interested in is references to 48watts ..48W LED Spotlights ...2 pcs 48W LED Work Lights ... Product Specification :. LED Power: 48W ... how *could* I read those statements? Like this '48watts [worth of] LED spotlights ... 2 pcs comprising a total of 48watts [worth of] LED Work Lights .. the advertised 'product' [2 lights] is capable of 48watts of LED power.
Nah. I don't like that angle ...I've already measured 22watts peak -per- light, and while it can be construed polemical as to whether they're referring to one or two lights of 48w power, I could end up looking like I'm quibbling over 4watts.
You can't use the lumen argument either, based on that rationale ~ my tests confirm that the 2 light together do consume enough electrical power to produce 3200 lumens of light.
No..the crux of the issue ... are the results of the reverse BOM I mentioned earlier. This is just common sense stuff...look at these lights, $4.50 a pop, landed, to my door, made in China ; one might never be able to estimate the cost of the metal housing manufacture (but I do note they're hand finished, roughly, to remove casting flash), but the electronics you stand a good chance of tracking down.
*16 x 3 Watt Super White LED / 16pcs*3w high intensity LEDs ...this, is the *actual* deception, the kernel if you like of all the other BS mentioned, The reason I'm measuring ~20watts power consumption per light, is because I'm testing a light with 16 x 1 Watt LEDs.
So now, I'm quibbling over 32watts per light ...that's a better margin to work with...now, #FFS...how are they doing this, at profit, at the $4.50 mark anyhow (the mind boggles, these things would be $2.something in the US =) ... time to roam the tomes of Alibaba and the like, to get a feel of what a 4 x 4 panel of 1watt LEDs with spot lenses + protective front cover can be got for...hmmm...lemme see here .. lense about 25cents a pop on a 1500 MOQ ...LEDs.... wow, doesn't half stand out why they BS 3w types & use 1watt... they can get down to 12cents, but 3watters are still near a $1.10 ...about a dollar for the LED panel or less in big numbers ; you can buy the whole frigging light, assembled, for a US dollar if your MOQ is up around 22K...far out...
I have contacted the seller of the 48W lights explaining they are not 48W and requesting a refund. So far no response.
Be keen to see what you send them.
I thought I'd do some ground work on the light bar I was looking at and asked them to confirm it is 420W as described.
This is the reply I got:
Sorry to bother you.
We are writing to tell you the answer of the question you mentioned. Just for your information, 420W means that the luminous rate of the lamp is equivalent to the ordinary 420W, and the actual consumption of the whole lamp is about 100W
With any other concern, please let us know, we will be here with you.
Have a nice day.
Kind regards,
So it seems they saw that one coming and would be their defence in case of a dispute. Not sure how to get around that. I also looked at the number of LEDS and they would seem to have around a 100W Draw while not being bad is still bloody misleading. No mention of it being light output and I have had this one used before but I did push it and win. They were 240V outdoor floodlights. Could use some more of those actually.... From what I have got so far, they are universally over rated.
This is the light bar in question.
Could probably dispute the lumen output. How is that calculated?
Any suggestions for next target? :0)
I was also thinking, maybe it would be better to look at OS sellers. The cost of returning products to them would be much higher especially as I believe Chinese postage is Subsidised to these sellers but return postage, which they ARE liable for, would not be and far more significant which would no doubt make refunding with out getting the item back much more attractive.
Last edited by george65; 27-03-20 at 08:41 AM.
I wouldn't think you'd have any problem getting around or disputing that as their reply admits they are lying & false advertising.
420 watt means 420 watt, not an equivalent to something else.
Fleabay sometimes doesn't take too kindly to that sort of behaviour, especially if it's reported.
They claim 8400 lumens, seems measuring lumens requires some special equipment -
I'll near bet they are lying about lumen output also.
Also something I do regular is there's a little link down the page a bit on the right opposite the "Description" header named "Report Item"
I put that to good use when I believe there's false advertising going on.
If I'm wrong so be it, fleabay will sort it out but they may not even know about such scams until they're reported so if I think it's a scam I report it.
Last time I went to return something to overseas the seller's return address was sent to me in Chinese & I couldn't understand it.
Jumped on fleabay chat & within a few minutes was told to keep the item and full refund was on the way.
Got the other light on test now, would appear the average running temperature is 52C for these lights at ~20C room ambient.... 'Almost no heat produced, safe for confined work spaces' ..so heat creation @ 150% ambient temp is almost no heat produced....almost no heat produced relative to a welding arc perhaps...the wires leading into the unit aren't copper, but some kind of aluminium alloy ; there's enough there to carry the current, but you want to make real sure no liquid gets on the bare ends and starts a oxidation event.Be keen to see what you send them.
One option here for my response, goes like this ... "I only bought the lights, because they were advertised as each having 16, 3w super brite LEDs, which is a really good bargain - normally 3w super brite LEDs cost about $3 each. My plan was to remove the LEDs from the light assembly (I have no real use for the light itself), and use them in my project. Now that won't work, because of your erroneous advertising - the LEDs are not bright enough ; they are 1w types, NOT 3w as is advertised"
Give yourself a gold star if you saw that one coming =) You get 2 gold stars if you've surmised the 2 people that didn't see it coming, are the seller and whoever wrote the scripts/software they're using...you get 3 gold stars by having correctly deduced that the ebay folks have seen this before...
Lumen statements are ostensibly useless without a distance from light source measurement & definition of light pattern spread - it is what it is. Ergo, a lumen statement without that criteria, must be inferring the lumens <-> watts conversion factor, for different types of light sources ; it would be the only reason to state lumens unqualified... and they're claiming 84000lumen is possible @ 420w with an 'ordinary' 420w light. I suppose they're talking incandescent?...reality check : weren't light-bars only a possible/viable technology *since* the advent of high power LEDs? Anyone ever seen an incandescent light-bat?...anyhow..
...to make 84000lumen with a halogen bulb we're gunna need 4200watts of electrical power, which @ 12vdc is 350amps ...awesome!
....to make 84000lumen with a tungsten incandescent bulb that you can't buy anymore, would take 5600watts..@ 240vac ... 23.3amps..phuq me, imagine the heat! ..bloody light bulb would burn a hole in your ceiling =)
.....to make 84000lumen with a LED light source is going to require 933watts ... and we'll pick off 13.2vdc as our supply voltage and we get ..70.68amps....haha..
Lets reverse the equation ...
... they claim their unit only uses 100watts, with an LED light source, that's 9000lumen
....they reckon, that's the same lumen output as an 'ordinary' 420w light ; I'll say halogen is pretty ordinary for this usage case, and @ 420watts we're gunna make 8400lumen
Got the picture? This is the obligatory order of magnitude markup {I'll just add a zero to the end of 8400} scam, comes with builtin plausible deniability/excuse get out of jail free card ebay have to swallow {Oops! We so sorry, someone make typing mistake, we fix now} ...only happens if they get called on it.
You have all the cards now ~ play the hand as you see fit =)
footnote to my previous post: if you manage to get ebay to force a seller to change their ad...like here, from 84000L to 8400L like it should be, every other seller with the same thing and the same stupid add a zero at the end, has their listing updated as well ... it's all a big interconnected machine ...
I have laughed at quite a few listings where they state " 1 Lux at xxx Meters".
Clearly these morons have no idea what one lux is. It's about the amount of light falling on something from a candle place about 50M away. In otherwords, nothing the Human eye can detect.
That said, it may be the only thing they have stated with any honesty or creditability.
Got another refund today for something I didn't want a refund on. Ordered some more throwing knives and some Krambits and they never showed. Contacted seller who's response was " We checked shipping company and seems they may have got lost so sorry can we give full refund?
Obviously agreed but makes me wonder if the order was ever sent at all given their first reply was to refund and infer they had doubts themselves of their arrival.
Bugger!
I have ordered a heap of electronic Components and Control boards and getting nothing. Been setting up some solar power supplies so if the lights do go out, ours will still be on. A number of the components would be handy for this but luckily I had more controllers and boards put away than what I remembered.
These lights might come in real handy yet for interior and exterior lighting.
I do have another exchange going with respect to an electronic kit ;
Of the things wrong here, we have the item images (which aren't representative of item shipped), and there are no assembly instructions. You can find the same kit on Banggood, along with feedback/questions about the same issue - no assembly instructions, and in that marketplace the official reply is "There are no instructions for this kit" ; that's it. Think going to IKEA and coming home and opening the flat-pack and finding no assembly instructions =)
This is why the Banggood marketplace is often better ~ granted, buyer has to self formulate the question "does this kit come with instructions?", but at least they can find the answer to that before actually purchasing the (any) item.
Hello,
This item has arrived, but I cannot find download link for assembly instructions.
I need assembly instructions so I can make the item and check it works correctly and leave feedback.
Do you have a link to assembly instructions please?
...2 days later...give them a nudge;Dear customer, we will check it for you. Thanks sincerely
Hello, Thank you for the reply.
Have you found the assembly instructions yet?
I wish to leave feedback and conclude this transaction
Tomorrow with be 2 days on again, and they get another nudge with thumb-screw pressure increased =)We are still checking it for you
I finally got a refund for the 48W lights after several back and forths including 2 word for word responses on returning the items... at my cost. I think they just try to keep up the back and forth to see if they can put you off. Not this little black duck!
The lot with the 200W fantasy lights seem to have stopped replying so time to open a return case with flea bay.
I Got a nice PWM controller yesterday that I was looking forward to getting. Set it up, pretty blue light comes on and does nothing. Looked on YT, yep doing it right as there wasn't any other possibility so it's a Dud. Very disappointed.
Have informed the seller, see what happens from here. I asked for a replacement but that always seems too hard so they will probably refund and I'll have to buy and wait again.
So, what's the next Ripoff target? Might even look at more LED's. I'm looking at setting up a bigger greenhouse for winter and they would come in handy as grow lights.
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