Dealing with *some* Ebay sellers!

[wotnot]

I redrafted the image takedown appeal, had my finger poised over the send button....and then thought...'there is nothing in this for me ; I'm doing ebay's job for them ; I won't get paid for that ; and if I sort this via member2member, the actual sellers would avoid getting a strike registered against their accounts ; I should play this at tier 2' ... so hold the send, c&p the draft into the script book in case I need it later, and figure out a tier 2 strategy.

Time for the ebay chat portal again, and things start to look a little different. For a start, I *still* haven't received a transcript of the chat dialog itself, which is a little bit odd. It's even more odd given the fact I *did* receive the usual 'how did we do?' feedback email after contacting ebay customer support...so apparently -that- much got recorded and worked as expected. I figured I've under-used that in the past, so this time to the first question, they got this;

questionnaire: Great, sounds like things went well. What stood out the most to you?

my response: The manner in which we were able to politely communicate an issue with some ebay sellers, who insist on using 'faked' electronic flyers, to inure the perception that there listed item is 'genuine', because they are co-operating with eBay with a "no faking worries" campaign, that isn't part of Ebay operations, and which eBay Agents tell me never existed.

I will make this bloody image's existence known to all at ebay, any way I can.

Suddenly 8hours later, the transcript turns up.... (ebay agent in italics, interesting points in bold);


You mentioned about a follow up email that you'd like to send to eBay. May I know about it?

Sure, it will be in my messages record, regarding the use of fake images on some ebay listings. That ticket has been closed and I can no longer reply to it.

Oh, I see. Is it the from other sellers?

Yes

Thank you. In order for me to help you with this, do you have the sellers name? I'll take care of reporting this for you.

Well, you don't need report it - one message from the ebay agent said they were open to suggestions - I came up with one that works, that is both kind and friendly, and I just wanted to check with someone it was ok?

I understand, Actually, using fake photos is fine so long as the items that sellers are selling is the same what they are selling. If not, I'm afraid it will cause sellers to have more cases into there accounts like item not as described.

Excuse me, what? Even if the images make claim of being involved with ebay with a campaign that doesn't/never existed?

That is totally not allowed.

Now you get my point =)

If you have sellers name in there, we can look into this. Buyers may be able to chase up eBay for the discounts sellers offering into there listings. Do you have item numbers in there for us to look into?

What?... all 20 sellers?

Just 5 sellers will do. If that is fine with you.

Give me a moment..

I just need to have a copy so our Marketing Team can look into this as well.

This is easier... do a search on ebay.com.au for the following 2PCS 48W LED Work Lights FLOOD Lamp Off Road 12V 24V Boat Camping Fishing 80w ...that will list all the sellers using said image.

Thank you. Don't worry, I'll check this for you. Once I gather all the information, I will raise this one to our Marketing Team so they will be able to take necessary actions to stop this.

Great... I got the original seller I found to remove the image via member2member contact, but I'll leave it with you for now =)

Thank you. Rest assured I'll do what needs to be done Anything else for today?

Nope, all good, I think we've got it covered.

Alright. If you have other concerns please let us know. Have a good day ahead. Take care. Thanks for using eBay Live Chat! Stay well!

Thanks, you too!


Now...lets see what happens this time, after pointing out I did their job for them last time, and giving them a larger target than just one seller.

I just wanted to nuzzle out the first bold point...how the phuq many folks would come at ebay chat, referring to a past contact, as being a 'closed ticket'? Yet see, the agent picked up on that immediately, and knew exactly what I was talking about =)

I can't even work out the odds on this play, but bets, as always, are welcomed =)

[george65]

For a start, I *still* haven't received a transcript of the chat dialogue itself, which is a little bit odd. It's even more odd given the fact I *did* receive the usual 'how did we do?' feedback email after contacting ebay customer support..

Same thing happened with my little chat with them the other day.
Want the accolades but don't live up to what they say they are going to do.

[wotnot]

At the moment, I think I'm docking more ebay customer support messages than I am from buying stuff...bit weird for me. I just went back to my above post of the latest transcript, and made an edit to underline one odd line I got from the ebay agent. Why would that make a mention, given the content and focus of that chat discussion? I don't think so, nothing being discussed really warranted that comment...at least, I can't see the inference of need to point that out. Unless of course, the agent pulled out my member profile onscreen, and there's a note there saying something like "just remind the member they have a kind understanding of ebay guidelines & policies"...or... would a refection of the screen reveal, that all the sellers of these lights, have been flagged with a 'expect item not as described claims' tag? That'd sort of make sense to me, or at least I can deduce a logic as to why that might be so. If you think about it some, that could be a 'measure' ebay would take against such sellers, which I'm told I will not be privy to, that would see them as having addressed the issue ; it makes sense.

This is often an unexpected result of investigation & research like this ~ you end up with a tacit dissertation/thesis that is self-concluding. That, does not go unnoticed by myself, and I'll collate such and hoist it online in various places once this is all done - this is useful material for students and younger folks I know, who are interested in ecommerce and so associated studies. It might be just a game - it still produces valid real world data that people can learn from.

Anyhow... the most critical point of this whole image hate infarction, is the ebay agents words were, that such reports are dealt with typically in a 6-24hour timeframe. Then, as a member, I could use the ebay messaging system to contact a seller, pretty much stated all that ebay themselves would have needed to do to make the seller act responsibly, and I got the image removed, myself, in a six to twentyfour hour time frame. I have rattled ebay's cage multiple times about this, and we can see... all of us here... that ebay does nothing.

Apertis oculis meis ; eyes wide open -- they will not do anything about those online sellers I found, using the same fake image, why? If they leave them there, they're sort of ebay advertising if you will, and even if prospective buyers twig it must be a fake 'coz they're not looking at an ebay store, but other online outlet, that may cause such people to think they should look on ebay instead, because ebay must have an 'no faking worries' campaign, and so they look for ebay stores that display the same image, which are still there because ebay's action was to flag sellers of this item type to likely see a lot of return/refund claims that get tagged #buyer-always-wins, and think they're 'safe' and going to get 'genuine' items, and that's why ebay hasn't moved on these sellers to get them to take down the images...which an ebay agent has asserted in words is totally not allowed, and like I demonstrated and recorded was an oh so easily done thing in the end...and in a basal respect, those online webstores using the same image, need not be in their purview of regard, because in the first instance those merchants/sellers are breaking aussie rules and regulations...nice touch guys, you have really thought this out well, I applaud you, in all seriousness, this is precision, peerless.

Very much yes, I'm dead serious there. My interactions with their agents have always been warm and cordial, their replies.. albeit beguiled by the use of legal compose... did answer my questions, even when I was being a right pita about buying these lights, doing the (partial or otherwise) contact and/or return/refund processes, ad infinitum, as I described, was really ok, and they assured me multiple times that I had a kind understanding of the ebay guidelines and policies. They have always extended the invitation to contact them again anytime, because they do appreciate this sort of feedback from members such as myself, if for no other reason to get some idea about how many sick puppies like me still exist in the wild =) This position of apparent neutrality, also serves a practical purpose as well -- I can find these same lights on ebay, *correctly* described with realistic specifications cited. If the position is, and it is, that sellers who list items not as described automatically become 'prey' for as many ebay buyers that there might be, it's up to the buyers to enforce the rules of play. That's reasonable at some level... it is, after all, a game. When money becomes involved, it begets war.

'The enemy of my enemy, is my friend' ... *my* enemy, are these online sellers, who deliberately falsely advertise/describe the product(s) they're selling, and the methods they employ in so doing (images). These sellers, {applying necessary transmogrification} are also highly discouraged by eBay themselves, and this is why they have the guidelines & policies they do. Putting oneself 'on side' with them, or at least assuring them of what you're up to, is at least a courtesy if not reassuring at the same time.

The online webstores using the same no faking worries image... as said, one each in 3 states, and one of those states in where I reside. As I can trace them back to a Qld address, although there is an umbrella covering all online ecommerce here, there is a pecking order, and the first place of call for me here, is the Qld Office of Fair Trading...



There, you click on the Make a complaint link, to get to this page...



Where you see this ...



So you click on that link which takes you here...



You would be forgiven for thinking what you're looking at is the ebay guidelines & policies all over again ; it's the other way around - ebay guidelines and policies have to be fashioned to comply with a locale's consumer's rights, that simple.

*This* means I was right in the first instance, even at the non-ebay online ecommerce level -- your first contact method should be to contact the business owner first yourself about any concerns or problems you may have. As I've cast ebay into the role of unlikely ally, I need abstain from dragging them into it, other than to establish they confirmed the image is falsified - eBay themselves have nothing to do with it.

The 48W lights?...went to a mate's place today, to help bleed the brakes on his ute ; he's recently put up cover awnings & sheds, so I took him a light and gave him a demo ; impressed he was at the price I told him I could get them for, tossed me a couple of yellows, keep 'em coming, once modded they're pretty good. Now that I have my own little source and drain supply with me as the gate, I can turn the current on and off as needed. I was telling a good mate about all of this, and he has nothing to do with computers, let alone the internet, and he remarked "I bet you there's some bloke in an office somewhere, who kicked back from his desk and called all his office mates over, proclaiming 'hey eveyone! come look at this! finally a buyer has figured it all out', laughing" ..you know he's close to the reality of it =)

Next move is to buy some more lights, this time, from a seller sporting the no faking worries campagin image...fun fun <grin>...

[george65]

Well, as usual I have proven I am not as smart as I would like and that this ebay thing really is a complete and utter shit Fight.
Not on the uneeded items but some I bought legit that have proven to be nothing like described. There is no penality for these pricks selling the fake shit with fantasy specifications. They can just say send it back and give you a return shipping label and that is it. Your time wasted with nothing in return.

It would be one thing if it were with the payback purchases which I have with one but when you get several things you wanted and believed were right, then it becomes a waste of time and frustrating. Even tried Don's partial refund of proportional what I got for the price paid to what was described and they won't come at that even.

I had a chat to the help a little earlier after a scammer insisted it was in ebay policy I had to pay for return postage and they would refund. I was 99% that wasn't right but I used the education Don has kindly bestowed and contacted ebay for Verification. They also said they would refund within 15 Days. THEY have to provide a shipping label or forward the postage cost. These little scumbags will try anything. This really is beyond a stinking shithole of scamming on a grand scale.

These pricks know they can get away with describing anything any way they want and there is no consequence in reality. Worst that can happen is they get it back or a refund.
Not a lot of deterrent.

[wotnot]

These pricks know they can get away with describing anything any way they want and there is no consequence in reality. Worst that can happen is they get it back or a refund.
Not a lot of deterrent.

The only deterrent, is the buyer's ability & skill in interpreting ebay's guidelines and policies, and enforcing same. The only reason sellers try these lines on, is because they're gotten away with it before, Many times, it's the seller's appreciation that the buyer must be an idiot, for buying something off ebay in the first place.

If you fall into the trap of returning anything, without squeezing the seller into checkmate, you're underplaying your hand ; it sounds to me like those 'luminaire' lights aren't so much a case of not as described, but more the case of shouldn't be sold on -any- aussie online site... I can work with that =)

[george65]

I can work with that =)

Yes, I believe you can.
Not all of us are as smart and switched on however no matter how much we try to figure this out. :0(

[wotnot]

Yes, I believe you can.
Not all of us are as smart and switched on however no matter how much we try to figure this out. :0(

Now you're making me sound like a smart arse =) Really though, I'm only using terse interpretation of the guidelines & policies, same thing ebay and sellers use. Free tool...not open source =)

I'll PM you about the lights, now that I'm versed with a read of the relevant documentations.

[george65]

Now you're making me sound like a smart arse =)

Haha. Not at all Don. I just recognise and appreciate smarter people than I when I see them. Some of my " afflictions" are ramping up atm as well which always happens at this time of the year and that certainly does not help my state of mind or ability to think and concentrate.
I am not articulate at the best of times and it seems like a lot of this ebay stuff requires pin point accuracy and a keen mind to figure the tiny loop holes.

It is made all too hard for most people which is why it is the way it is.

[Mr 672A]

I hate ebayer that they tell you they live or ship from Brisbane Australia yet they spell Braisbene Australai yet they live not far from me but the parcel takes over 2 week to get to my house.

[wotnot]

In a way, ebay are like the organizers of your local weekend market or swap meet...they put up the venue (platform) and sellers pay for booths. It's a little bit more complex, but at it's base that's what it's like.

Ergo, just like with markets & swap-meets like that, if something illegal is being sold there, you go to the cops, not the people running the market.

When it comes to electrical goods, especially those that connect or are wired to, the mains electricity grid, the following ebay policy comes into play (do note, this over-rides 'not as described' return policy);



The important words there are 'Products failing to comply with Australian mandatory safety standards' and pretty much all mains connected equipment requires a 'Regulatory Compliance Mark (RCM)'

To obtain an RCM, the manufacturer or importer of the equipment must be registered as a 'Responsible Supplier' with the EESS authority/database ...

The amount of compliance measures imposed on electrical goods, is directly relevant to the level of risk the equipment poses to life and/or property ..

Mains wired outdoor lights, easily fall into Level 2 risk group, but as I don't have one here I'll presume Level 1 (it's enough either way) ..

Most state/territory websites have online information to help you identify RCM marking/stickers... here's the Vic one ..


Now....if you find a RCM indicator, and look it up on the database, and it *doesn't* describe or specifically refer to the item you have, then;

1. the item is being sold on ebay in contradiction to --
2. the proper recourse to report an item bearing a RCM branding/sticker that is false, is via EESS, AMCA and/or the ACCC or your state/territories governing bodies in this regard...ie; Qld office of fair trading would be my first stop
3. technically speaking, if the item claims/displays any legal accreditation such as a RCM that has not been obtained as described by the EESS/ACMA ...then the electrical item is not only illegal for sale in AU, but it is also 'not as described' in ebay parlance.

If in the case of 1. above, ebay become aware of that situation, they will fallback to their policy in this regard, deem the item shouldn't have been listed in the first place, ergo you the buyer shoundn't have been presented the opportunity to buy the item via their platform, and they will give you a full refund, make a decision the item(s) be returned to the seller (seller pays for this), and you will have to comply with that decision because in the buyer's guidelines&policies you are not permitted a full refund and *not* return the goods, if the resolution is such that it demands goods be returned...that's what will happen -- note well: the seller is aware of this

In the case of 2. above, this is what the seller is most fearful of, being held to account by the powers that be. The seller knows ebay will do nothing, react like the above, let them relist the item, blablabla... like I say, being able to rely on ebay's consistency in enforcing their guidelines & policies in the way they do, is a boon not a burden. Rest assured though, if the seller knows the electrical goods don't have the Australian certification the law demands, they also know that's a deep pool of real trouble, and they won't have anything to sell on ebay if they get a visit from the electrical enforcement toe cutters.... this, is pretty much your trump card, should you choose to play it. Note well: sellers do not expect this, nor really plan for it -- that's why they use ebay =)

In the case of 3. above, if you argued that point of minutia as item not as described, and that it differs significantly from the item description to the point you would need to have them rewired to meet AU spec, and that was going to cost you around 50% of the purchase cost to effect, you could then make an offer for partial refund of 50% no returns (with ebay uninvolved, via contact) instead of getting <your state's relevant authorities> involved, in a way that indicates to them you're going to deal with this yourself, and not get ebay involved. If the seller gets ebay involved, it's seller admitted go to number 1...selling items on ebay without AU standards compliance ; seller won't go near 2. for obvious reasons ; between a rock & a tight place, seller will probably swallow 50% partial refund no returns to avoid the flak, and you can bet if the ebay back room squad saw this happening, they will do nothing 'coz they've logic-ed it out like I have, and by doing nothing they're effectively letting the seller get punished by ebay guidelines&policies.

A lot depends on whether and what markings are on the electrical items themselves, on any documentation included with same, or on any of the packaging the item came in. This is more complex than the simple application of Ohm's Law with LED lights =)

[wotnot]

I hate ebayer that they tell you they live or ship from Brisbane Australia yet they spell Braisbene Australai yet they live not far from me but the parcel takes over 2 week to get to my house.

That'll be ebay discount shipping - sellers can choose to use it if they wish, it's cheaper. Once they lodge the item for pickup, it may sit there with them for 5-7 days, because the ebay shipping stuff is only picked up from sellers, if there's 10 or more items involved in that pickup area, from one or more sellers.

[wotnot]

And guess what turned up today... this is going to be stupidly funny...

[wotnot]

Now...twice as much off you first order...I guess member take-up of ebay-plus is pretty slow...

[Jma]

I looked at plus a while ago and see you had to set up a recurring payment through PayPal to be eligible for it.
As I've had nothing but problems with trying to get recurring payments to work correctly with PP, and failing, I decided against it.
I've also noticed that when purchasing some low priced items under $20 a similar banner would appear saying something like 'save $20 on this purchase with ebay plus'...yeah sure they're going to give me $20 off a $10 item.
From memory, reading the conditions about "free returns" with ebay plus wasn't across the board either as one would expect from their advertising.
Decided it was just another fleabay scam in the end.

[george65]

Now...twice as much off you first order...I guess member take-up of ebay-plus is pretty slow...

Now See that little astrix after the word "Plus"?
That means there is a whole LOAD of terms and conditions attached to that offer and having seen this before and read ebay conditions, I'll guarantee you it's anything but straightforward.

First thing I'll bet is there is a significant minimum order for a start and it will go from there.

"Try it for Free"

That would be free AFTER you have joined would it not? I looked at this the other week and seem to recall a lesser bonus if you took the trial offer.
Anyone interested can look it up. I sure as heck can't be bothered but clarify that bit before taking it on face value.

[wotnot]

I looked at plus a while ago and see you had to set up a recurring payment through PayPal to be eligible for it.
As I've had nothing but problems with trying to get recurring payments to work correctly with PP, and failing, I decided against it.
I've also noticed that when purchasing some low priced items under $20 a similar banner would appear saying something like 'save $20 on this purchase with ebay plus'...yeah sure they're going to give me $20 off a $10 item.
From memory, reading the conditions about "free returns" with ebay plus wasn't across the board either as one would expect from their advertising.
Decided it was just another fleabay scam in the end.

It's typically weird as when you read all the T&C...you -might- make good of it if you spend a year online shopping with Coles and tend to buy a lot that way (save on delivery) ...but elsewise, nah...

If you do read the T&C, apparently you can sign up for the 30day free trial, cancel the next day, but you still get the $20 off and 30days ebay-plus shit as well... I didn't see a catch at first glance, but it looked like a free redback in the offing =)

[wotnot]

Here's the latest light test clip, this time done in the dark for mysterious ambiance =)




Remember... this is the same seller I've already dealt with, this is the same seller I achieved the one-shot with (bird assisted =). this is the *same* seller I've already implored upon to check their stock and/or update their listing(s)..





Two one-shots in a row perhaps?.... going to be interesting =)

[wotnot]

Ok...time enough... as fully expected, ebay did nothing about those non-ebay online stores, and to keep respect to topic, these -are- sellers who also are ebay sellers, so fair's fair. As we know, I've already slipped the ebay agent the pertinent search string, that will pull up all the ebay listings sporting the 'No Faking Worries Campaign' crap, so I'll give them a few days to.... demonstrate... what, if any, actions they'll take about that (presume no visible action =)

Two of those online stores are straight forward, but one of them...the QLD entity as it so happens ... does not display a contact email address on their website -- they use a web hosted 'contact form'. All they list is their ABN & mobile contact number. I'll use the web form contact, rather than this email address for the registrant of the domain...as the web contact form is likely closely monitored by someone.



I'll need muse the acronym construction of 'regdorcn97' ...but at a guess, not a name....and often that email address is a dead end anyhow...so webform it is, this should work;



..You will o~b~e~y.... you will o~b~e~y... =)

[wotnot]

...2 down...1 to go...

[wotnot]

Gotta love it when a plan comes together



Refund is already in paypal, 2 one-shots in a row, quite by accident as it were, because I really didn't know it was the same seller. So close this one out with;



I sometimes would like to be a fly on the wall, to see if any of these sellers actually contact ebay about this sort of thing...you can only imagine their horror =)

Throttle down left prop, jam the rudder to port, time to circle back...time to buy some of those *obviously* genuine lights, sporting the 'no faking worries' image me thinks...