Reply With Quotewotnot (19-04-20)
Guy's maybe find some UV-C Spectrum Lights ?? If you find a SUSS seller then try your luck..
UV-C Spectrum kills all sorts of bacteria and DNA. Only needs 10 seconds to kill it approximately
Use it on your shopping you bring in or any parcels delivered to you... Use it to disinfect everything that comes in your house.
UV light is the way. Sunlight works but Not as powerful, there isn't enough UV light in it from my understanding..
China are building self driving robots with UV-C lamps attached to disinfect hospitals, so finding them might be hard atm.
Just thinking out-aloud... might not suit with what you guys are doing.. /dunno
Last edited by Johnno; 19-04-20 at 03:58 PM.
wotnot (19-04-20)
Always talk out loud =) I know I do and always have done ~ it's a Good Thing[tm] ...I want to contract the virus, so they're of no use to reach my goal. ..hehe...
..but hey, you wanna see talking out loud? I just sent that seller the 'spooky' message....couldn't find the right YT vid, but then thought of a couple of things I hadn't covered off.. so had to find an 'appropriate' link...
They will be wasting my time now, if they can't do that by Monday, the day when I connote 'forthwith' to mean 'without any further delay'. I've partially removed their mask, they now know I've been poking about examining their operation.
Oh...link in English -> ..know your options, know your opponent's ...sun tzu
Johnno (19-04-20)
You do realize, George, that most of us find your posts TL;DNR which is a pity, because, sometimes, we miss the worthwhile comment. Irrelevant to this thread, but relevant to all threads.
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
Godzilla (19-04-20)
My final words to this thread which sounds to me like a bunch of tight wads who know it all, yet still go and buy a product that they well know cannot be what it is because it is too good to be true at those prices.
Open those wallets, blow out the dust, buy a BRAND NAME you know, and make sure it genuine when it arrives.
If you want to keep buying unknown brands with wild claims, blame yourself, buy again and again till you learn.
Funny thing is i also buy from ebay, i make sure its genuine and not a fake, when it is a no name product, i well know im taking a risk, when its wrong i blame myself, not the seller, i well knew i was getting a bargain too good to be true.
As they say, poor man pays twice......and start taking some responsibility for your own actions well knowing "its cheap"
Its Cheap for a reason.......
Missing the worthwhile comment because you couldn't be bothered reading a post right through is your own faultOriginally Posted by lsemmens
You do realize, George, that most of us find your posts TL;DNR which is a pity, because, sometimes, we miss the worthwhile comment. Irrelevant to this thread, but relevant to all threads.
Last edited by Jma; 19-04-20 at 06:22 PM. Reason: forgot a word
The first 10min of this are worth a watch, to get that 3rd person view perspective. For relevance here with respect to those 48W lights, I find the analogy at about 6:00 in the vid, where's she's talking the small fit XL sizing, and how she presents her listing -knowing- the situation, replete with tape measure comparisons blablabla... excellent, that's the way to do it...and she's not a tailor!! Mein got...she's using common sense, who would've thought it possible in this day & age? =) You see the analogy with that one seller saying they've tested their lights with a multimeter, and invite you to do the same. If these sellers we select can't be bothered doing these things about items they've no knowledge of...then sorry, these might be mum&dad sellers without a clue, but if you're so clueless that you can't do rudimentary checks like these, you're not 'working' with your ebay store - you're being lazy, and accepting what your supplier has told you...when same supplier comes from a place known world wide for scams and shonky items. To me, these sellers lack common sense ; they're out for a buck with as little effort and regard as possible.
Last edited by wotnot; 19-04-20 at 06:28 PM.
And if that product wasn't falsely advertised none of us would have a problem with it, not sure what's so hard to grasp about wanting something to actually be as it's advertised?
And:Advertising & promotions
No matter how a business communicates with you—whether it’s through advertising, packaging, online, logos, endorsements or a sales pitch—you have the right to receive accurate and truthful messages about the products and services you buy.
False or misleading claims
There are laws in place to protect you from being misled about the products and services you buy.
Creating a false or misleading impression
Businesses are not allowed to make statements that are incorrect or likely to create a false impression.
This rule applies to their advertising, their product packaging, and any information provided to you by their staff or online shopping services. It also applies to any statements made by businesses in the media or online, such as testimonials on their websites or social media pages.
For example, businesses cannot make false claims about:
the quality, style, model or history of a product or service
whether the goods are new
the sponsorship, performance characteristics, accessories, benefits or use of products and services
the availability of repair facilities or spare parts
the need for the goods or services
any exclusions on the goods and services.
It makes no difference whether the business intended to mislead you or not. If the overall impression left by a business’s advertisement, promotion, quotation, statement or other representation creates a misleading impression in your mind—such as to the price, value or the quality of any goods and services—then the behaviour is likely to breach the law.
There's plenty more out there on the subject if one looks around, and they all say basically the same thing - false advertising, whether intentional or not, is most likely in breach of Australian Consumer Laws.
Don't understand why they just can't upload it to their website. Must have one.
That's what I do for big Files for clients.
They really are Dumb and ignorant morons.
Here we go, this might turn out to be practical demonstration ... the seller I contacted *before* any purchase querying the wattage rating of the lights, has replied;
OK?...lets give them another try shall we, -before- purchase, and see how we go ; understand here, I'm going to give them every opportunity to redress their position, perhaps take the time to check the lights...hell, I'm even going to tell them what's going to happen, if I buy the lights and they're not as per item description, okay? I'm also going to toss them that link george65 found about the fake lights and testing with multimeter...
Lay you bets on the seller's intent here ; regardless of whether they believe their supplier's BS or not, regardless of whether they know how to use or read a multimeter or not, I'm given them enough 'common sense' clues there to either check & sure the position on what they're selling, or abort my pending purchase buy giving me honest & informed advice...ie; informed as in check the lights yourself before replying.
This is examination of this seller's MO....
Last edited by wotnot; 19-04-20 at 10:06 PM.
Johnno (19-04-20)
Hehe.. I'll lay a tenna that he'll ignore 99% of what you just said and repeat ''as stated on advert 80watts....lol
I'm going to watch this outcome, just for giggles..plus I'm confident on doubling my money lol
wotnot (19-04-20)
Lol!...if I were a betting man, which I'm not, there's hardly any gain taking up the bet on such surely short odds =)
In reality tho', I reckon I could take your tenna, turn it into 2 pairs of these lights, send the tenna back with the lights, and not pay postage ... not kidding here, not kidding at all B^)
edit: I keep forgetting to add... if you're in communication with someone like myself, who has a reasonable command of English, and you can't even speak the language, what would 'common sense' have you do?
Last edited by wotnot; 19-04-20 at 10:33 PM.
Johnno (20-04-20)
Well...their website might be in china and as such cut off from the rest of the world - it happens. That's why I had to consider they might not have access to mediafire etc. Indeed... think about all the things you *can't* do on a locked down system, say in centrelink of the like for example ... their workstations could very really be locked down in similar fashion. I only twigged this when looking at the screenshot I can't show (privacy concerns) of there email client/system ; it's not a standalone mailer but linked back to their group server. With ecommerce across international boundaries, it helps to know how their operational backbone works, and how it very well could be configured, given the way the authoritarian govt. there operates. This will be a raised point of contention with ebay if it hits case level ; seller is unable to cooperate and use the internet in a truly open fashion to be able to provide customer support.
Well I'm certainly glad you noticed I'm a tight wad ; you get that being on a disability pension when you're over 60 years old, and at that income level, believe me when I open my wallet, dust falls out =)
We know the goods are shonky, not what they claim to be..so?...therefore? For free, because the sellers want to mislead people, the lights in question are outstanding value ...for free. In fact, they're probably still pretty good value @ $20/pair, if advertised at that price for 2 x 21W led lights. That is the point, how hard is that to do? If all these sellers were adequate for the vocation they've chosen, and advertised these items correctly, we'd see ebay full of these lights, all about the $20 mark, with sellers competing against each other down the the last dollar and cent..like in a 'real' marketplace. Australian consumer law dictates that it is the seller's responsibility to accurately represent their goods. If a seller fails to do that, with the very real and apparent open knowledge that Ebay policy means if a buyer catches you doing that, you're going to have to issue a full refund and pay for return postage, why would you do that? Are we next to suggest, these sellers are exempt from those policies, just because they can't read English, or haven't read that bit of the sellers' obligations/guidelines/policies? No .. common sense says operate in a country where you 'speaka da lingo' ...man, it's hard for these sellers, isn't it?
I had a close look at the Cree datasheet too...going by the specs, given the case size, heatsink finning, and device density ( 4 x 4 LEDs in a 110mm x 110mm housing ), the math is saying to me, relative to the datasheet... you're going to end up exceeding case/junction max temp of the LEDs in use...with 3W gen2 Cree leds. That actually correlates with my own bench testing -- with as I suspect, 16 x 1W LEDs yielding 21W max, in continuous duty I was measuring 50-55C at the back of the case (root of the heatsink fins), using physical thermometer, not a flir. I've no idea how hot the things would get with 16 x 3W leds, but it's not hard to extrapolate the projected operational curves..it's doable, just, but you'd have to run them at 75% rated current to get any sort of operational lifespan -- these lights at a claimed 80W, that'd be 16 x 5W leds...light doubles as an egg cooker, and LED life expectancy would be <1000hours by some margin =)
Do I know it all?...hardly, I've already admitted I know jack about beauty products, and the list of what I don't know about is huge compared to the list of things I do know about ...but in this game, you don't *have* to know it all, just the niche areas of ebay where you know more about the items than the sellers do, and know something about how the marketplace works which you yourself identify as a lost cause for the virtues of truth, justice, and 'the correct use of soap'. (great album that)
Last edited by wotnot; 20-04-20 at 12:05 AM.
george65 (20-04-20)
I don't know what your internet speak means but I can only assume it means you have a reading and comprehension disability.You do realize, George, that most of us find your posts TL;DNR which is a pity, because, sometimes, we miss the worthwhile comment. Irrelevant to this thread, but relevant to all threads.
Sorry to hear that and hope you can get some help with it.
Fk me!
After all your defending the scamming sellers and trying to make excuses for them, You still don't get what this is all about.
Incredible.
Seems I gave you way too much credit and your intelligence level is closer to that of the other online sellers than I realised!
I think there is only one way they can go, tell you the lights are as advertised.
If they don't, it would be a slam dunk admission of guilt.
Furthermore, I'll bet they have no clue as to what a multimeter does let alone how to use one and as such, are thinking that you won't know how to use a complicated instrument like that either.
Other thought is their Mindset is programmed to make the sale above and beyond all else. From there they probably figure they can go back to their pre scripted replies starting with "Sorry to hear this, can you send a picture for the warehouse to confirm.... ( I can even recite it off by heart myself now!) and don't worry, we will do everything to make you satisfied with your purchase" and then go into the " Make them jump through hoops till they give up or offer a 5% refund" strategy.
I have actualy used this pre purchase confirmation to my advantage in the past as well. Once you get an assurance from them before the sale of the specifications of the product, they have no where to go afterwards. I remember this is how I got my first light bar for nix about 7 years ago. For the size seemed very cheap and although I was ebay naieve at the time I sent a message to confirm. Sent me back the details from the ad so I bought it. Took it out the box, onto a Multimeter and guess what, no where near the specs they TOLD me it was. Got a refund on it real easy when I showed them it was nothing like they assured me it was.
It still a bloody good Light, turns night into day and I have often thought I'm glad the thing wasn't what it was supposed to be because it would be TOO bright. The reflection off road signs can be blinding at times and the illumination on the thing is both wide and has plenty of reach.
If they were just honest and up front, they would make the self same amount of sales and have a lot less comebacks.
As a matter of coincidence, this particular seller I've used the pre-purchase shakedown before, so they're seeing 'in character' communication from me. What I didn't say about them admitting that jaycar was their supplier, is that it would've actually been electus (part of jaycar) who would've supplied them, and I contacted a mate who works there to confirm (that they were supplying ebay resellers)..he gave the nod. They're expecting me to buy, it's what I've done before after pre-contact.I have actualy used this pre purchase confirmation to my advantage in the past as well. Once you get an assurance from them before the sale of the specifications of the product, they have no where to go afterwards. I remember this is how I got my first light bar for nix about 7 years ago. For the size seemed very cheap and although I was ebay naieve at the time I sent a message to confirm. Sent me back the details from the ad so I bought it. Took it out the box, onto a Multimeter and guess what, no where near the specs they TOLD me it was. Got a refund on it real easy when I showed them it was nothing like they assured me it was.
It still a bloody good Light, turns night into day and I have often thought I'm glad the thing wasn't what it was supposed to be because it would be TOO bright. The reflection off road signs can be blinding at times and the illumination on the thing is both wide and has plenty of reach.
If they were just honest and up front, they would make the self same amount of sales and have a lot less comebacks.
I'm doing it here, to serve purpose of demonstration ~ comments rendered here draw into light the supposed 'ethical' aspects of these sellers, how they operate, and how that perhaps they don't even know what they are doing, don't have the skills to check/confirm what they're selling... whatever. You & I know where this is headed, but I'm going to go to -extreme- lengths here to put -this- seller's operational MO under some -real- stress testing...severe shit, Redex rally type severe shit =)
I can even draw the plan (as I have) beforehand .. if it's not already irony that I've used my own YT clip to show them what I'm concerned/talking about, (even though I haven't admitted I'm the author, it's out there, anyone can find it...I did) wait until the lights from the other seller get here this week, and I do another bench test using multimeter(s) and pop that on YT (with my other YT account), and then do a bit of 'creative writing' again explaining I already bought some of these lights --before-- I realized there were fakes out there, and now I've been caught out as well ("I wish I had've contacted you earlier") and that ("now you can really see & understand my concerns here").. and bla bla bla, just so they know for sure I have the necessary technical expertise to test the lights, along with ("As I said before, now I have to start an ebay return/refund case with that seller, it's so disappointing")..yudder yudder yudder.
I could probably wager a C-note, they'll still confirm their lights are 80W B^)
However, the point of demonstration is to show what actually happens, regardless of the ethics & morals displayed by the buyer.
Last edited by wotnot; 20-04-20 at 01:39 AM.
Yeah I am too.
For a long time I had the arse out of my pants. It was literally the decision between fuel to take the kids to school or dinner on the table. You don't forget that.
Now we are very comfortable and I can afford anything I want or more precisely, don't not have anything I want, does not mean I'm happy to piss money up the wall.
Yesterday morning we had an impromptu Family meeting over new Furniture for the lounge room. Just spent $30K plus on the kitchen so Loungeroom upgrade is next. We looked at our old Cheap arse " Fantastic furniture " Lounges and noted how comfortable they were even compared to the new 3 seater lounge we paid $4k for ( one only 4 seater, not a set) and the fact the cheap arse lounge was still structualy sound, did not show undue wear marks and was still enterily decent. Only thing wrong with it is it does not suit the style and colours we want to go for.
We all agreed that our taste and change of minds was going to be the cause of the next lounge being replaced, not structural or wear problems. As such we figure there is little point in paying for more High quality, High value furnishings when the cheaper products do the job just fine. We have seen some that are not real comfortable but also seen some that are. Also noted the 10 Yr Guarantee many have structurally so what exactly is to be gained by paying multiple times more for pieces that are the same comfort level and guaranteed to last longer than the years we have left anyway?
I have applied this policy before. What is the point of having something 20 years when it's going to look old and shitty and out of date by then? Better to save money on something that does the job adequately then throw it away and update rather than try and get every last use out of something more expensive.
Don't get me wrong, I have stuff older than me but thats more in tools rather than anything that has any requirement of aesthetics.
I remember a dear uncle of mine. Always a very sharp dresser unlike so many of his age. I commented at a family gathering once he looked like he just stepped out of GQ For Retirees. He laughed and said he didn't buy expensive suits, just ones good enough to fit him properly when he spent a few bucks on alterations. He said they always wore well but he didn't want to be still wearing the suit he was married in and looking out of date, buying the cheap ones he could update them as need be so they were in style and up to date.
Couldn't argue with that, man always looked impressive at a Family BBQ.
Another thing I have good first hand observation of is cheaper machinery. Some years back bought some Chinese Engines. 1/5th the price of a Honda or briggs and for what was thought to be a one off job, should have been adequate. Turned out to be bloody useful and things are still running faultless.
My father was a died in the wool Honda Stationary engines only as was a mate. Bought Dad a BIG log splitter with a China engine on it. I could see he wasn't impressed with the power plant and made comment to the guy whom worked for him " Wonder how long thing thing is going to last?"
Coming into it's 8th season and having split probably 30+ Cubic meters of real hard wood ( some sitting round for 10 years) the thing hasn't missed a beat. Mate has also found the same as Have I.
Between the 3 of us we easily have 50 of these engines in various sizes and the only one to fail was one of a mates when Knuckle head son ran it out of oil. Thing kept stopping so he disconnected the low oil cut-off!
Would we have got better service out of a name brand? Certainly not us. If we were using something everyday all day, Maybe, but highly doubtful. In any case, a brand name engine would have to outlast 4-5 of the cheaper units to give any benefit . VERY hard to see them doing that.
I recently bought a New MIG. I bought a good, exy name brand after doing my homework because that is not something I can get the same quality and ease of use out of a cheapie. Maybe I would but on that, I don't want to take the chance. Can't really be an amateur and claim the thing doesen't weld very well. Least if I buy the decent one I know exactly where the problem lies and I'm not confusing my own lack of skill with what very well maybe the deficiencies of the tool.
Today I ordered $500 worth of new downlights. Bought the good ones at literally Double the cheaper but still decent ones. I don't want lights that flicker, have shitty colour balance or other problems. Paid for the good ones and happy to do that because I feel in the long run, the more exy lights are the cheapest. They are not something I want to replace any time soon.
I would split hairs that it's not so much the lights that are shonky but more the description of them that's the worst part.We know the goods are shonky, not what they claim to be..so?...
As Noted, our 48/21W lights are not bad lights at all. marketed as 20W lights I'd buy them and be very happy. It's the false expectation that brings them undone and the disappointment/ discontent. I was playing with the 200/ 6w in reality lights earlier. They are probably not as bad as my initial displeasure indicated although they aren't great. On a vehicle, Might be OK for reversing or cargo lights.
If the things were marketed as a low draw headlamp for a Bicycle, then I'd say they are ball tearers. Get a half decent size lithium battery an hook one of these lights to it and you'll see everything you need to and people will have no excuse for not seeing you. They would also last many hours on a modest size battery pack.
Big difference between what you need on a car and what is good for a push bike.
Again, describe the things accurately and set up the correct expectation and not an issue.
Ahh, that'd be technical insight from me drifting in - these kind of LEDs have a working hour lifespan determine by junction operating temp, and it's a curve similar to that of auto trans fluid..ie; keep the fluid under 80C and it lasts 60,000k whatever...if you run at 90C, fluid life drops to 40,000l...same with these LEDs. You can read about it here , but to summarize using Cree's own words (makers of these LEDs allegedly)I would split hairs that it's not so much the lights that are shonky but more the description of them that's the worst part.
As Noted, our 48/21W lights are not bad lights at all. marketed as 20W lights I'd buy them and be very happy. It's the false expectation that brings them undone and the disappointment/ discontent. I was playing with the 200/ 6w in reality lights earlier. They are probably not as bad as my initial displeasure indicated although they aren't great. On a vehicle, Might be OK for reversing or cargo lights.
Again, describe the things accurately and set up the correct expectation and not an issue.
There's nothing you can do about it short of ripping the things apart and mucking with bucky to reduce the forward current, but, you still face the problem of device density on a finite heatsink spec, so even dropping back to nominal (not hi efficacy) current, the LEDs are perhaps too close together and there's too many of them. Going by my quick math & datasheets relative to that case design/size, for max LED performance/lifetime..even with 1W Crees..you'd go with 9 x 1W in a 3 by 3 array. If you were using 3watt Cree, you'd go 5 x 3W in a corner point + center cross array. To hit your best thermal targets that is.According to , a manufacturer of high power LEDs, "the majority of LED failure mechanisms are temperature-dependent. Elevated junction temperatures cause light output reduction and accelerated chip degradation."
It's a hard thing to define just where the scam got slipped in. I'd really need to destructively disassemble a unit (I think, can't find a clean way in) to measure & R/E the circuit (think bigclivedotcom) to determine exactly how hard they're pushing the LEDs installed.
For example, if the designer/manufacturer wanted to make the lights appear brighter than what is otherwise possible to do in that package size, you can bung in 16 1watt LEDs instead of the 9 you should use to stay within spec, push the leds to max voltage/current, hey presto you've got what *looks* like a 48w light. Or someone in the chain gets them and goes 'these look brighter than the 16w rating, lets bump the numbers', then the seller suppliers gets them, goes 'These are really bright' and bumps the description.
I will bet, these lights will be back to L70 in under 3,000hrs use ('done properly with 9 leds instead this would happen at 10,000hrs or so), and led life will be determined by how much thermal cycles (on/off) they see ; typically when you drive led junctions hot, expect mechanical failures. High heat levels also cause degradation of plastics as well (lenses, reflectors).
These are shonky at design level, but for free they're outstanding value, and not too bad value @ $20 as 21W LED lights if you don't care that the luminosity drops off to 70% of what you see with them brandnew in 3000hrs time.
Btw, seems ebay are pushing this;
I doubt I have 3000 Hrs of night time Driving left in me. :0(if you don't care that the luminosity drops off to 70% of what you see with them brandnew in 3000hrs time.
My " Normal" night time country drive where I would use these lights is 4 hours. That's 750 Trips. Probably haven't done 100 trips at any time since I got my licence and that was my first long distance journey. Around here I'd be lucky to have High beam on for more than a few min at a time thanks to oncoming traffic. Never fails to shit me how many inconsiderates Don't dip their headlights till they are 50M in front of you and the amount of arseholes going round with their lights (or just one) so high adjusted they blind even the Possums in the trees, is another thing again!
It's still a lot of hours Driving even at 1000. I'm sure some people may be able to rack that up so for them paying a few hundred bucks for the well engineered lights may be worth while but for what I do and getting the lights for nothing.... They will do well and truly.
I was talking about a similar thing the other day with Relays. I set up AC DPDT relays up to handle DC from solar without vaporising them. Someone said it may reduce their Life.
I get the things for $4 when I have to pay for them. I get a good amount from a mate when I visit and pull them out of the scrap AC units he has down the back. They are rated to 100K Cycles. If I get only 10 % of their life (and no reason to think I should not get 50%+) for what I'm doing with them that's still 3 years out the things. $4 for 3 years sounds good to me! :0) I can calculate the money they are saving me at close to $1000 a year.
Do the same with the fuel Line on my 4WD. I run veg oil which eats them up. I can pay over $40 Meter for something that -may- last 3 years or I can pay $4 a meter for something that lasts about 18 Months. I use the cheap line and replace it every Christmas when I do all the yearly services/ fluid changes etc. Takes about 10 min Costs about $2 on the amount I use and I know I'm not going to have a problem.
I think of it like aircraft servicing. You don't run something to get every bit of life out of it, you run it a relatively short time so you minimise the chance of failure and then swap it out with new/ reco.
As far as the forward Current on these lights, One could work out what that was and then use a buck converter to set the total current the lights were getting.
The heat sinking in some applications may also not be a problem. If the things are on the front of a vehicle used as driving lights, chances are they will mainly be operated with 100Kmh of airflow rushing past. As long as the heat sinking from the devise is reasonable, the rest should be well cooled.
Having played a lot with solar inverters, I have well learned that there is a Hell of a difference with moving/ forced air against static conductivity.
If the lights are used in more static applications, then they may well struggle.
Given the low power rating of the lights, one could also just work out the forward current and get a couple of 10W Ceramic resistors of the right ohm value and put them in circuit to pull the current down to where it needs be as well.
Making them last longer will cost more than we are buying them for however. :0)
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