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Thread: Hybrid Inverter Solar Panel System - Is it worth the outlay?

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    Default Hybrid Inverter Solar Panel System - Is it worth the outlay?

    Hi everybody,

    My wife and I opted for the Government subsidized solar panel grid system some ten years ago. In July the Government subsidy basically finishes.

    We are looking at replacing the system with a Hybrid Inverter Solar Panel system. (Redback technologies company.)

    I would like to know what everybody thinks regarding value and if it is really worth the outlay in panels and storage batteries. I understand that the best way to go is to get a decent set up to "make it work." 12 panels at least and a couple of storage batteries.

    I am an amateur radio operator and am wondering if anybody has had any interference on the HF bands from the inverters. With our current Orion inverter and six panels I have not really noticed any excessive interference on any HF bands from a smaller solar panel grid system.

    Thanks in advance everybody.



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    I've seen (or more precisely.. have heard) some shocking interference from some inverters... enough to wipe out 2 metres FM at a distance of 100 metres!

    Most newer inverters seem to have less QRM issues.

    I'm considering a similar hybrid system myself... and will ensure I get it in writing that any inverter/entire installation does not generate any RFI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by David071 View Post

    I would like to know what everybody thinks regarding value and if it is really worth the outlay in panels and storage batteries. 12 panels at least and a couple of storage batteries.
    No, no, NO and a thousand times NO!

    Here is my crash course rant on solar and batteries.
    I am right into all this and have over 20Kw of solar on my roof and in the process of adding more. Believe me, If I thought for a second batteries were worth it, I'd have them!

    Batteries are a complete and utter WASTE of money when you are grid connected. I have seen all sorts of convoluted and complete and utter bull ship calculations on how they can save money but the bottom line is, THEY DON'T!! There is only ONE calculation to make.... Will the amount of power they save you repay their investment cost? The answer anywhere in the world for any battery ATM is NO! They would have to be at least 1/5th of the current price to achieve any sort of worthwhile ROI.

    IT's an easy calculation. Take the price of the battery. Look at the USEABLE capacity of it, generally not the rated capacity because no battery likes to be run flat ( and the less you drain them the longer they last) and Multiply that by the cost you buy power for and get a daily saving. Now Divide that daily saving into the cost of the battery. That's how long it will take you to NOT repay the battery.
    Why Not? Few reasons.

    You won't use all the power every day. Some nights you will be out, some times the house will be empty like when you are on holidays, lots of times if the battery is over you normal nightly usage you won't drain it all.... and so it goes. This blows out the ROI time.

    Then there is the weather. You can look up the amount of sunny and cloudy days where you are but in many places in Oz you will get at least 1/3rd cloudy or partially cloudy days. In Sydney I bank on at least 2 weeks straight of rain or heavy overcast at some time in winter. You battery's may not charge in that time especially if you are only charging them on the excess the house isn't using. Even with 12 panels, that's not a lot of power and on a cloudy day, it's well and truly bugger all even with the amount I have. My main inverter that can normally do 35Kwh with the double over clocking of panels on it did a grand total of not quite 4 Kwh today with the rain and cloud.

    These days again blow out your repayment time on your battery, just to break EVEN. You will be lucky with most battery's if you can recoup your money in 10 years and usually it's much longer. How long is the battery warranted for? Never seen one yet that the ROI time falls within the warranty period.
    There are other costs as well like interest on the loan for the batteries or the money you pay for them that could have been spent lump sum on things that better enrich your life than saving .83C a day on your power bill. And that is all you will often save, if that.

    if you really want to SAVE money, slap as many panels up on your house as you are allowed. Hedge you bets and see if you can put up more panels and restrict the inverter or export limit the inverter. If say you can only have 5kw Export to the grid but can have 10 KW of panels, do that.
    This will mean you get the Maximum FIT AND still have all your own power to run the washing machine and heavy loads through the day and run not only for free, but be earning to offset your Night time usage. You can get money from the power company with the right setup and habits. You will NEVER do that with a battery when the cost factor is calculated. Panels will often pay back in 3 years or less batteries often don't even recoup in 10 year or their entire lifetimes. Depending on where you are and the steals the robbing power cos have, you may not be anymore than about 8C kwh away from what you buy and what you sell. You may be a lot more BUY, in many places it's not hard to Make more power than what you use by a factor of 3 or more and even with the usualy pathetic feedback rates, you still can get a Nil bill or be in credit.

    Panels will save and make you money. Battery's are a dead loss. End of story. You will be far better off spending the money you would have put into batteries into more panels. Every single Time.

    Now the next thing you will read are protests from people saying batteries give blackout protection. If you want blackout protection, buy the tool for the Job, a generator. If you have enough blackouts to actually warrant a generator, you already have one. No one pays thousands to offset an event they may have less than once a year for an hour unless they are brainwashed or plain stupid. I have a couple of gennys I have built. I think in years to come there will be supply problems, guarantee it. My generator will run day and night in any weather for free and power EVERYTHING in the place bar the Big Ducted AC. I can actually hook the solar and the generator together and power it all up on a sunny day much as many will claim that can't be done. Can if you know how very easily. My genny cost me a lot less than any battery system but you really only need something to power the fridge, TV and lights and thats it. My electric hot water has capacity for at least 3 days and I can hook the solar into it direct if I need to and am working on an automatic electronic controller to do that as well.

    There is lots of hype by the industry and the green washed about batteries but if you stick to facts and figures and put the BS and emotion aside, Battery's simply don't even come CLOSE to adding up when you are on grid. If the grid is going to cost you $50 K to have run to your property, different story but then we are talking off grid then not on grid.

    As I said, those who have looked at this with honesty ALL agree pretty much the world over, batteries would have to come down 80% in price to be worth while and that's Never going to happen any sooner than everyone having flying cars.

    One other thing, DO NOT be brainwashed and suckered into buying top of the line, most expensive panels. They aren't worth it. Go for a good Middle of the road, long established panel brand but DO put the savings into a top of the line inverter. Inverters have well proven to be the the weak link. I get given used panels all the time. Used working inverters are still hard to find and expensive. It pays to save some on panels and put that towards a top quality and featured inverter.

    Also make sure to get one that has water heater diversion. That is your profitable battery right there. In a lot of places you can be selling the power you make through the day to the grid and buying it back hours later to heat your water for 5,10, or more cents extra. That's very poor management of your solar investment. Use your HWS as a battery if you like and get an inverter that will power your household needs first, power the heater 2nd and then export to the grid 3rd. With enough panels you CAN do all 3 and once and really save yourself some cash. If you have a pool, you can also power the pump from the inverter with excess power.
    And BTW, Don't buy any of those over priced, questionable longevity add on diverters that will never recoup their own price either. Another Lie disguised as a money saver.

    Unless you are going to be in the house for another 20 years, there is no point paying extra for a 20Yr guaranteed panel over a more economical panel that is guaranteed for 10. Warranties are not transferable to the new owner and in my recent and extensive experience, a house with solar has NO extra value over one that does. Why would it? $4k and you can get it put ojn any place now.

    The other thing is, ALL the panels on my roof are used panels. They have been taken off and replaced due to being upgraded. NONE of them are 10 Yo anyway.
    The thought you are still going to have 15Yo panels sitting on your roof and not upgraded with more efficient ones, slow as that is going but over 15 years... does not bear out to reality and history. If they get physically damaged, that's an insurance concern not a warranty issue.

    At present if your inverter shits itself, you are NOT allowed to replace it with a new inverter unless you bring the whole system up to current standards. Which is impossible. Panels come and go off the approved list and there are no 10 yo panels on it that's for sure and I doubt there are many 5 yo panels that are compliant either.

    The other thing is, with say a 20yr guarantee, how are they going to make good on it?
    Only 2 things you can do, replace it with another panel (S) that HAS to be exactly the same or refund it. As there aren't going to be any new old stock panels around in a lot less than 15 Yrs, that one is out which leaves you with a $300 refund and a crippled/ hobbled ageing system...... That still might not be in compliance of future and ever changing regulations.

    Good quality 10 Yr Guaranteed panels are all you will need. I see some have upped their warranty, probably because they know its a good marketing tool for them and pretty much a useless benefit to the customer but don't decide on one panel over the other based on warranty.

    Hope you are still awake and this helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    No, no, NO and a thousand times NO!

    Here is my crash course rant on solar and batteries.
    I am right into all this and have over 20Kw of solar on my roof and in the process of adding more. Believe me, If I thought for a second batteries were worth it, I'd have them!
    That is very good advice george65.
    I was wondering about a few of those issues that you have clearly explained.
    I live in suburban Melbourne on grid and have taken advantage of the government Solar rebates and purchased a Solar Panel system in December.
    My System is as follows.
    System Size……….. 6.3KW dc

    Solar Panels ……… 20 x 315w Seraphim Blade Panels – SRP-315-BMB-HV
    1690mm x 1002 mm – Monocrystalline

    Inverter…………… 1 x SOFARSOLAR SOFAR 5KTLM-G2 – 5000 W
    1 phase – 98% max efficiency

    The cost for all this was.

    Cost…………….......…........… $8,537.00
    Minus STC Incentive …..... $2,937.00
    SUB TOTAL = $5,600.00
    Minus Gov Rebate …...……. $2,225.00
    TOTAL = $3,375.00
    Minus
    4 Year Interest Free Loan $2,225.00
    MY TOTAL COST = $1,150.00

    I qualified for the Interest Free Loan = $2,225.00 48 months @ $46.35 per month. Direct Debited

    I obtained 4 different quotes which varied considerably and i opted for one of the mid cost installers after listening to all their speel.
    It was funny that the dearest installer wanted to put half the panels facing East on the roof, he thought it was easier that way
    I'm pretty sure that the panels need to face as much sunshine as possible, obviously he never got the job lol.
    The cheapest quote was for only 19 x 295w panels. (I was told later they were probably older panels they had in stock) and i did my maths between 19 x 295w and 20 x 315w panels.

    So i was looking at $1,150.00 outlay for all of this and repaying just $46.35 for 48 months. (Sounds okay hey!)

    The big sell for the offer i took was the salesman kept saying "Don't go for the cheaper installers! go for him because their safety was better they used safety rails on the roof when installing!" Thats nothing that i was particularly worried about but when i got my written quote it was added in their costs "including HAND RAILS"
    So the day of installation i find the Sparky up on the roof with his apprentice and no hand rails Well really Noooo i mean as if i care, i'm not up on the roof Anyways i ring the installers office and ask where are these all important HAND RAILS i keep being told about? The answer was Ohhhhh the hand rail subcontractor has forgotten to come and install them Well straight away they take $500.00 off the price
    So now i only pay $750.00 for the whole lot installed and pay back just $46.35 for 48 months.

    Not finished yet! An associate of mine tells me he is wanting Solar panels too. So i ring the Company again and they give me a $100.00 gift voucher for recommending my associate to them (He brought similar deal as me from them)

    So all up cost for me was $650.00 for the whole lot installed and pay back just $46.35 for 48 months.

    I got my first Quarterly Electricity bill the 10th March it was.... They owe me $1.38 (I used to pay them between $400-$500)
    A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing.

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    my calculations came out similar to yours what i came up with was at least a 75% reduction to even come close to breaking even

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post

    Cost…………….......…........… $8,537.00
    Minus STC Incentive …..... $2,937.00
    SUB TOTAL = $5,600.00
    Minus Gov Rebate …...……. $2,225.00
    TOTAL = $3,375.00
    Minus
    4 Year Interest Free Loan $2,225.00
    MY TOTAL COST = $1,150.00

    I qualified for the Interest Free Loan = $2,225.00 48 months @ $46.35 per month. Direct Debited
    that's a bargain , we don't get those 2 rebates in QLD to my knowledge , well not in regional areas at least.

    i'm always a bit sus about a solar company's figures anyway. We bought a 2.5kw system 4 years ago and the most it ever produced was 2.2kw. I picked up 2 panels for free and added them on , now it generates what it should.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VroomVroom View Post
    We bought a 2.5kw system 4 years ago and the most it ever produced was 2.2kw. I picked up 2 panels for free and added them on , now it generates what it should.
    Panels are RARELY 100% efficient.

    They are measured under certain criteria where they will of course give their best output. In my experience, that is very difficult to achieve in this country.
    The main ones are Lighting levels and Temperature. Even in Oz, the light levels are High and would only be reached in very perfect weather. The problem is when you get that much light, the things usually heat up. The standard test temp is 25 oC. Put anything Black in the sun here and it soon goes over that temp. I have measured 80 oC on the BACK of panels in summer and done it plenty of times and these were ground mount panels that had a meter gap for air flow.

    I spoke to a Guy in Canada several times who was getting over rating from his panels. He made huge snow berms to reflect the light onto his panels and of course it was about -20 oC so the things were still chilled which helps them in the bright sun. Not a scenario one would be able to set up in oz very often.

    The other thing restricting output is the inverter temp and the mains voltage.
    Inverters also throttle back when they get hot and have working temp Limits. If it's a 30O Day and the things are working hard, you can bet they will be getting warm. When they heat up the internal electronics throttle them back so they don't completely cook themselves. Also if it's a good day and everyone around has solar, this will push the line voltage up. The inverters sense this and will pull back the amount of power they produce to keep the grid within the specified limits.

    This is a frequent problem as the typically lazy arse power companies tend to run the grid High anyway. Having it high also slows the amount they have to pay home owners in FIT so it's in their interests to break the standards they hold you to. This time last year it was nothing for me to see 260V on my circuits and I could see 255, the upper limit of the voltage at midnight and 3 am so it sure as shit wasn't solar pushing the voltage up. When one considers all the off peak hot water would also be kicked in at that time, it was pretty easy to see the problem. Someone must have complained because not the Power is a lot lower. Still high at 235 on dull as days like yesterday and goes up to near 250 But better than before.

    Before having solar installed, get them to check you line voltage and see where that is. The specs say you can only push it up a max of 2V but that's largely impractical. It does pay to make sure they use at very least 6mm wire back to the box which is generally a short run anyway. 8mm is better.

    The other thing most people don't understand ( as I did not) because a lot of solar info is presented to suit an agenda ( profit) is that the peak power is only a small part of what really counts . Normally solar production graphs look like a hump. Start out low in the morning, ramp up to a peak between around 11 am and 1pm and then fall off again. The trick to maximum returns and Minimal bills is the same as China Virus, Flatten the curve.
    Because all my inverters are running double or more panels, My outputs Rise Very quickly in the morning, peak and stay there till late in the afternoon then drop slowly till it's nearly dark. I might only be making 20W then but it's making something long after the others have gone to sleep for the day.
    The other BIG advantage of having all the panels you can get and overclocking an inverter is you get the most power when you most need it.... on overcast days.

    My golden rule of solar is inefficiency is the most Dollar efficient. Trying to make panels efficient by tilting them or what ever is never as cheap or makes you as much power as just adding extra panels. Tilting actually REDUCES output on cloudy days. The best tilt for summer and cloud is FLAT. Adding extra panels ALWAYS gives you more power. Whether it be Summer, winter, sun or Cloud, there is no substitute for square inches of cells.

    Another consideration is panels fall off rather quickly initial on their efficiency. The drop a fair bit in the first 2 years then flatten out. They still loose 1% or something every year ( hence stupidity of wanting 25yr warranty panels) but it does not take long before they are not the rating they come with.
    If you start out with 200% of panel capacity for your inverter and they drop 20% so you are only at 180%, not exactly going to make a big difference. :0)

    Many new systems are now 6.6Kw on a 5 Kw inverter. you are allowed a 30% over clocking to allow for various and numerous inefficiency. You can still have in most places an 8 or a 10 Kw inverter with according panels and have it export limited ( feedback to the grid) limited to 5KW as the limit is in many places. It varys wildly so people need to check their local regs and deals.

    One other thing that can me done is you can just do a solar setup and plug it into a power point, within limits. It is NOT per the rules but if you are like me and don't give a rats about their often stupid and contradictory rules.....
    I have a setup on my fathers place. It's 5 KW of panels on a 2 Kw inverter. Up on the back shed and just plugs into the power point. Could have hard wired it easy enough but I wanted to leave it plug in. It back feeds his home circuits behind the meter so that offsets what he is using and any excess rewinds he old spinny analogue meter reducing his bill. And reduce it it has.... but at least half. Not much in winter because the orientation and tilt is right off but mainly the 100Ft Gum trees give it a lot of shading but in summer when the days are long and the sun is high, He's pretty much only paying the availability charge and the hot water.
    I am looking at hooking his hot water up to an array I'll put on the verandah with an electronic controller I'm testing so the hot water will heat through the day and reduce the cost of the off peak. If it's a week of cloud, no matter, will work as normal but in summer, he can probably turn the off peak off all together.

    One cannot go putting 5Kw systems on normal 2.5mm power circuits but you certainly can put up to a 3KW inverter with no problems. I will upgrade Dads inverter if I can find one the right size which I haven't been able to as yet.

    Panels are cheap, Inverters are not so always the best bang for the buck to put up all the panels you can.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    No, no, NO and a thousand times NO!
    Agree 100%. We have had our 6kW system for 8 months now - only two of us and everything is electric - and we are running a credit.

    In the beginning I was also considering batteries - LiFePO4 - but the economics never made sense so opted for panels only.
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    Thanks george65 and others for the fantastic contributions to this forum posting. My wife and I have been chatting about the comments for the last hour!

    My wife and I live in Perth and we managed to get the solar government rebate deal back in April 2010. We only got 6 panels (sungrid GYSP175 solar panels) and a Sea Orion SPG-360-2KO grid feed Inverter.

    The government rebate offer finishes in July and we are wanting to add more panels.

    We have a number of questions!

    Can our existing inverter say run another 6 panels?
    Is it worthwhile.......say buying another 6 panels and having them rigged up to the existing Orion inverter (2kw system inverter) when we don't know what life we have left with the inverter?
    Is it best to opt for a whole new inverter and can we still use the old sungrid solar panels and mix and match with some newer panels?

    We also have an old bungalow type house. We have an old brick chimney which we are thinking of removing. The metal roof is quite high and it is a fairly high pitched roof. We are just wondering if it is worth the cost of removing the chimney to add another couple of panels into the circuit.

    I would really appreciate what everybody thinks on these ideas.

    Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by David071; 01-05-20 at 11:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    It was funny that the dearest installer wanted to put half the panels facing East on the roof, he thought it was easier that way
    These installers will ALWAYS take the easy way out even if it is breaking known Conventions. Neighbour when I moved here had his Inverter on the wall on the outside of the shed where it copped all the sun all day. Makes them hot, reduces output and certainly their life. I moved it directly behind for him which was no trouble so it's in the shed and out of the sun and weather and his outputs particularly in summer went up noticeably. Surprise surprise!

    Tilt and orientation are 2 of the biggest falsehoods perpetuated by the solar industry IMHO. You must have the right tilt and the right Direction.
    First of all the " Ideal" tilt is only ideal for about 2 weeks a year, The sun moves in the sky constantly so an ideal fixed tilt is complete and utter BS. I pondered for Weeks how I was best going to put my panels on racks to get the tilt right on my 13 o garage roof that was supposed to be 34o. We get tornado like winds here so I knew whatever I did was going to have to be pretty much as strong as the structure of the shed itself. Time was wasting so I thought stuff it, I'll lay thing things flat for the minute and get what I can. So I did and was impressed with the results. That was early October and I then came across a solar Calculator where you can punch in the size of your array, you location and tilt and orientation of the panels. Much to my amazement, the setup I had was perfect from Nov to about Feb.

    I further discovered that what I had would give my more power over the course of the year than Tilting the panels anyway. Tilt would be better in winter but because the radiation of the sun is lower ( hense, it's winter) and the days much shorter, the gains I made in winter didn't equal what I'd loose in summer when there is heaps of radiation and double the amount of sunlight hours. As such all the panels are laid flat on the roof and that's it.

    The other thing is tilting them means I would only get 1/3rd the amount up there because you have to allow Space so one lot does not shade the others. Having then flat and covering the roof also blows the " Ideal" orientation away and again, on the crappy overcast days, tilt is useless and nothing beats sq inches of panels.

    East west orientation isn't bad, even south is good in summer, something they never tell you in the solar guides and how to's . North is king though in the southern hemisphere and if you have, you should ALWAYS use it. ( Not withstanding shading issues etc. ) I actually am setting up my west roof. 24x5M. I'm not touching the east because we have the biggest/ oldest tree in the district in the front yard and being not exactly Kosher, I don't want panels Visible from the street.

    West orientation of course produces best power in the afternoons when most people want it. East is good for off gridders whom want to get their batteries recharged as fast as possible and aren't looking for max input but steady input. Again, North is always best but east and west can work well too and if you have an east / west split, the difference with north is not worth worrying about.

    Even right Now, ny south 34o Pitch roof is getting sunlight. It would be crappy but it is getting it. On the shed roof which is 5/13o, for 6 Months of the year and particularly in summer, it's not bad to very good. In summer the sun is virtualy overhead so flat is best and the flatter the roof the less important the orientation.
    I have a bunch of " Junk" old low output panels there I put up again for shits and Giggles but they produce real good power in summer. Total rubbish in winter but... at the end of the year they are a hell of a lot better than nothing.

    I have nothing on my north house roof so far. That can be seen from the street and I'm not sure I want to give the game away. Once I cover the west roof, I'm not sure I will need them. I have 6 Kw of brand new panels I picked up to go there, 360 and 405W panels but I'll see how I go. Time I am finished with the west roof I should have around 25-27Kw all up and that should be OK. The other thing is I really need another 5 Kw inverter to make proper use of it as everything else is overclocked already and then I am getting to the problem of starting to max out my 40A Solar Circuit I had installed. It's 3 phase but one phase has an electronic meter I can't rewind so I am limited to 2 phases. I could move the 3rd phase to double up on one of the other phases but then I'm pushing the limits of the wiring back to the pole as it's only 60A wired here not the 80 I'd like so I need to be a bit careful.

    I turn half the inverters off in summer because I make way too much power ( 84 Kwh a day is the record so far with 70 Kwh being pretty ho hum) So it's really only winter I need the extra capacity. We are all electric here, no gas, no fireplaces etc so our power usage is high having our own waste water treatment as well.
    The house roof Orientation is good for winter though. My other option would be to connect the North arrays only in winter.


    I got my first Quarterly Electricity bill the 10th March it was.... They owe me $1.38 (I used to pay them between $400-$500)
    That is a fantastic result and shows the kind of savings that can be made with solar and without stupid batteries. Sorry to anyone offended but for on grid properties, that is exactly what batteries are.

    Even the used system I put on my fathers place that has everything wrong abouot it other than sheer overclocking of the panels saves him plenty. Took 12 Months to repay iteself because I put it on at the start of winter 2 years back. At first he said to me " I don't think much of your solar, hasn't changed anything. " I said I told you it wouldn't wait till your next bill. The next call I got about it was " Well you won me over with this solar thing, My bill is half. " Better than I expected I'll admit but the summer was even better and he admitted he was flogging the AC. He was so pleased he even got another AC installed because he wasn't worried about running it and had saved enough on the bills to cover a good amount of it's cost. He's Comfortable and still well ahead now. Exactly the result I wanted.

    This place used $138 of power in the first month we owned it and that was before we moved in and only had the septic pump running and used some lights briefly when we came here at night. Round here, $1200-1800 bills are common. The place gets to -5 in winter and our hottest day this last summer was 47.6oC. Aircon is an essential not a luxury here. Mrs wanted to put in a wood heater and as much as I like them, I know the work involved in cutting wood or buying it.
    I could get all the wood I want for Free but then I'd have to invest in a splitter and cut it up, stack it.... I spend Days a year sweating and busting my arse doing that for my father who loves and derives great comfort from his fire. I don't love myself enough to do it for me and the mrs knows how to work the Aircon! Daughter would have a fire blazing keeping the house a cosy 54 oC with half the doors open and be running round in a Bikini if we had a fire place and we would be going through 14 tons of wood a season. Yeah, no thanks.

    I knew very little about solar when we moved here 3 years ago. I had a play setup on batteries at the old place but the learning curve really started here.
    Our power bills show we use half the average amount of power as a 1 person household and there are 2 adults and a 23 yo teenager here. She likes to wash and DRY 3 articles of clothing, can't go in a bathroom without turning on the heat lamps, and can't wash her hands without running the hot water and then using it for 7 seconds before shutting it down and leaving all the water to go cold in the pipes. She can stay in a shower longer than a frog and anything cooler than about 50o water temp is too cold for her. Mrs is also terrible with things. Fills the kettle every time she wants to make 1 Cup of tea. Told her 100 times but..... Now I don't worry. I HAVE educated them to be a bit more careful in winter and they even sometimes ask, " Do we have enough power" and I get great satisfaction in saying use whatever you like. I am hoping I can say that all the time when I do the west roof.

    Both my brothers in law put typical shit on me for my latest hair brained DIY with the solar. Was it worth it, how much had I put into it.... When they saw the often Sub $200 bills we get when Visiting with the aircon going full tilt and the mrs told them I had spent less than $2K on it all to get what would have been $1500+ bills down to average $200, their tune changed from berating to questions. Guess whom has solar on their places now? Sis in law round the corner told me their bills were heading towards $2500 ( home business) and have now dropped to around $1300. Not bad for a $5.5K investment.

    I have seen comment from people that they got solar and it made no difference. You then see shots of their setups and notice it's probably shaded at least 4 hours a day or the panels are facing south on a pitched roof and other stupidity. I have also heard where a lot of these people got the system installed by door knocking solar companies who's only goal was to slap something up there and move on. A friend who I thought would have known a lot better got a system by one of those crowds and it was a Joke. He got them back 3 times ( installers were back packers) and it still didn't work. I got up and had a look and was stunned. They literally connected the array back to itself in a dead short and did the same with the inputs to the inverter. You couldn't make that UP.

    Some of the panels were also cross wired. It's literally like joining extension cords together, male and female, only one way they can go.... so I thought! How an electrician, solar qualified or not could miss that was beyond me. I get people lambaste me all the time for not being " Qualified" as if anything I do HAS to be a shipfight but I have NEVER had a problem with my setups. They work first time every time. The amount of things I read on solar forums about people whom have had "Professional" installations and the problems they have had don't seem possible till you see it with your own eyes. Anyway, I sorted out mates system and it's worked as it should since. Not exactly Rocket surgery but too much for some to get right clearly.

    Solar can be a great money saver BUT, it IS something you have to do your home work on and relying on what some, any, sales person tells you is setting your self up to be screwed over. I looked at some of the quotes for the BIL and laughed.... after I double checked my eyes weren't playing tricks on me and I hadn't picked up someone else's glasses.

    Solar on it's own is a GREAT money saver but batteries at this and the foreseeable point in time, will only take you backwards and always will with no point of gain over their life Cycle.

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    Another addition to my previous post - above George's last post.


    Thanks george65 and others for the fantastic contributions to this forum posting. My wife and I have been chatting about the comments for the last hour!

    My wife and I live in Perth and we managed to get the solar government rebate deal back in April 2010. We only got 6 panels (sungrid GYSP175 solar panels) and a Sea Orion SPG-360-2KO grid feed Inverter.

    The government rebate offer finishes in July and we are wanting to add more panels.

    We have a number of questions!

    Can our existing inverter say run another 6 panels?
    Is it worthwhile.......say buying another 6 panels and having them rigged up to the existing Orion inverter (2kw system inverter) when we don't know what life we have left with the inverter?
    Is it best to opt for a whole new inverter and can we still use the old sungrid solar panels and mix and match with some newer panels?

    We also have an old bungalow type house. We have an old brick chimney which we are thinking of removing. The metal roof is quite high and it is a fairly high pitched roof. We are just wondering if it is worth the cost of removing the chimney to add another couple of panels into the circuit.

    I would really appreciate what everybody thinks on these ideas.

    ALSO:

    I was just wondering if the (1.) Small scale technology rebate certificates.
    (2.) Solar panel rebate and interest free loan that came in 01/07/2019.

    I presume these two rebates are federal government and available in all states?

    I said to my wife this morning that the government may change rebate returns for systems after July this year - wondering if this could be a possibility - after COVID 19 and the extra payouts in different areas from the Federal Government?

    Thanks in advance everybody.

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    The rebate schemes vary from state to state, so you need to look at those which apply to WA.



    In Victoria, the rebate scheme for upgrading an existing solar system only applies to installations before 1 November 2009. Just an example as WA is likely different.

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    I can give you some heads up but I can't be too specific.
    The rules and regulations vary infinitely from place to place and being in WA, you are not on the national grid so likley your rules are different again to the majority of Oz. YOU will have to look into what applies to you specificaly and in your area with the providers available to you. I think there are some incredible amount of different plans like about 600 across the country so that's why you have to check things out in YOUR area.




    Quote Originally Posted by David071 View Post

    The government rebate offer finishes in July and we are wanting to add more panels.

    We have a number of questions!

    Can our existing inverter say run another 6 panels?
    Short answer, yes. It can run another 50 Panels. The catch gets tricky and it all depends how honourable and law abiding you want to be. Me, I don't give a crap about adhering to unfair rules and regs designed to favour the power cos and screw me over. A lot of people are different and too scared to step outside the rules and regs. You have to decide if you want to be squeaky clean or fudge the rules.

    People will always make out you are going to get caught and be effectively locked up but the REALITY is there is next to no policing of the regulations and no one I have ever heard of going round checking old installs. the other thing is if you do get caught, the general " Penality" is to make you disconnect your solar system and brow beat you not to reconnect anything not approved. To the best of my knowledge they CANNOT disconnect your power. They can't do that now even if you haven't paid your bill for months. It's a real last resort and not something they will do as often espoused by the bedwetters they will do straight off.

    Adding panels to an existing system on the FIT you have I am pretty certain is NOT allowed. It's Certainly doable but it's not Kosher. As far as I am aware you are NOT allwed to make any changes at all to that system. If a panel or the inverter fails, you are not allowed to replace it with anything other than the EXACT panel or inverter that was on it.

    Can you put more panels on it, absolute. are you permitted to? I'd say 99,9% No. Your chance of doing it with no problems? about 95% in your favour.

    Is it worthwhile.......say buying another 6 panels and having them rigged up to the existing Orion inverter (2kw system inverter) when we don't know what life we have left with the inverter?
    I would say yes BUT, that will be going outside the rules but thats an ethical decision not a technical one. Couple of things with this....

    First, you will probably be hard pressed to find someone to do it for you if you can't. Sparkys and installers have licences to protect and that is fair enough. If you have a knowledgeable mate that can do it, laughing.

    Secondly, You can buy used panels much cheaper than new and add them in. They are not permitted either but you will be already outside their regs so does not matter. DO NOT pay more than $50 for a 250W panel. I wouldn't pay more than $25 Myself but I get them for free now anyway and they can be harder to get in some places. They are worth next to nothing now so don't fall for the idiots selling them for stupid prices, the reason most are selling them is because the installer was going to charge extra to take them away when they replaced them with the new setup.
    Go to your local scrap yard and ask if they have any. You can probably buy them for $5 ea or they will give them to you. My local guy helps me load them in the ute and wants to clean out the bin he's that keen to get rid of the things.

    Over clocking the inverter means the thing comes up to speed faster, stays there longer and tapers off later. It does not improve the peak power, it just improves the time it stays at peak power. Only thing you need to watch is that you do not exceed the max voltage input of the inverter. You can have 10 groups of panels at the allowable voltage in parallel but you can't put them all in series.

    The other thing to watch is the older inverters generally have lower input, might only be 3-400 V or may be 600 but the second thing to watch is it will probably only have one input tracker. Therefore you will have to keep the input voltage close as you can with the new array as you can with the olf one. Don't worry about 10 or so volts, that's nothing, just don't have 50V difference. You may well find that you only need 5 panels of the new (used) ones to get near the same voltage and that's OK. The number and wattage is unimportant, the voltage IS important. I would also suggest forget about the panels specified voltage on the old and the new and measure them. It is common for them to be quite a way off from spec. If you take the specified rating you might be further out than Ideal. See exactly what your current input voltage is and work from that. You can't just read it from the meter because that will be under load. Check the open Circuit voltage first .
    Panels pull down under load which is why they have two specs, open circuit and voltage and max efficiency, and the inverters find their happy place. That is why you don't have to exactly match the voltages. There is a lot of tolerance from panel to panel even so you have wiggle room.


    Is it best to opt for a whole new inverter and can we still use the old sungrid solar panels and mix and match with some newer panels?
    NO. You can't mix old and new anything. Anything you "officially" install has to be on the current CEC approved list. They update this all the time and no chance your old panels or inverter will be on that. If you are not worried about regs and are happy to do a bootleg system on your own, Not a problem. Just as above watch your voltages and try to keep the wattages roughly the same as well so they are all pulling their weight evenly. You can have uneven numbers of panels but don't have one group miles away from the other voltage wise.

    Now, if you aren't that worried about all the BS rules and regs, then you could get a new or used inverter and replace your old one. I wouldn't do that myself, I'd get a new system and run the 2 Concurrently. That may be a " Pre-loved" new system or a brand new one. Generally you might have a tough time getting approval for the new system when running the old one and your new FIT will be much lower than the one you are on now but if its running out...

    With the lower Fit you may be a lot better off spending the money and getting a totally new system. You will need to crunch the numbers on what you use and the new buy and feedin rates. you may also like to look at keeping the current system and giving it a boost with more panels and see how that goes. You can use the online solar calculators to get a good Idea of what you will get but you should have a base from your old system. Maybe add in 25-50% over what you are getting now and see how that works out.

    The other thing is if it is just you and the Mrs, how much is your bill and how much power do you use? Work out what your bill will be with the new feed in and buy rates and play that off against the cost of a new system. If you are looking at say $300 bills and a new system will cost you $4K where you are, is the lump sum and payback worth it or might you do better adding say 25% more power to the existing system if you are happy to do that. If your bills will be less, and work on the NEW rates not the present ones, then again it's a question that gets a bit less clear.
    If you have plenty of savings in the bank getting no interest or reducing a pension or something because of those assets, then ponying up for a new , larger system that saves you on bills may be the smarter way to go. If it allows you to turn on The AC in Summer with less worry about bills and more satisfaction of independence, then thats worth a LOT to me and one of my main motivators.

    It's a complex and gray question with a lot of things to be considered.

    Sorry I can't give you yes or no answers and are putting it back on you but there are way too many variables for me to give you a straight answer unfortunately. As I said, something you have to do some homework on because only you can fill in the blanks.


    We also have an old bungalow type house. We have an old brick chimney which we are thinking of removing. The metal roof is quite high and it is a fairly high pitched roof. We are just wondering if it is worth the cost of removing the chimney to add another couple of panels into the circuit.
    The Biggest problem with the Chimney is likely to be shading rather than the space it takes up. Shading can really have an effect on output. It doesn't look much but it is. I can put my hand over my 5 Kw ground array and watch hundreds of watts fall off. Shadows don't reduce the output of one panel, they reduce the output of the whole array. One shaded panel causes a bottle neck for the current and every cell has all the power running through it. Bit like a hose. Squash it in one place and you don't get a 1% flow reduction for the 1% of hose that is restricted, the flow though the whole thing is reduced dramatically.

    If you are going to put anything behind the shadow side of the Chimney you will have reduced output unless you put micro inverters on the panels which IMHO are overly expensive, a pain in the arse and not worth the trouble. If you want more power then yes, the chimney would best come down but again, look at the cost of that and fixing the roof as against the payback on the extra power. A lot will aslo depend on what you can do or with the help of mates and what you have to pay a tradie to do.

    Also, do you have a garage roof you can use separate to the house? No reason that can't be utilised although there will be extra power circuit costs if you do it right. If again you aren't worried and happy to fudge the rules, then as I said you can simply plug a system into the mains as long as you keep it to the rating of the circuits you have have. That will be 3Kw for a power circuit with 2.5mm cable or 2 Kw with 1.5mm cable.

    2 Kw may make a big difference to the output you have now anyway.

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    Hey George, I came across a guy that had a second solar setup in his shed that charged Golf cart batteries. Loads of them maybe 20+ batts hooked up.
    Once fully charged he claims by hooking up a 24v/240v inverter which he plugs directly into the wall power socket sending power throughout his house ?? Is that what you're talking about in your above post ? Interesting if so.... I didn't really check it out properly as I was there to buy car parts and noticed he had a shit load of panels on the shed.
    Last edited by Johnno; 02-05-20 at 06:24 PM.

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    Thanks George and everybody for all the posts.

    There are certainly plenty of deals going! A lot of them sound like cowboy's (guess!?!). Have seen a lot of 6.6 kw systems for $2,500 - $3,000 for an inverter and a whole heap of panels (20). Just have to work out the best one to go with!?!

    Saw a 6.6kw system (20 panels x 330w mono PERC panels) and 1 x Growatt 5kw Inverter. for $3,000.

    Another with a 1 x Growatt 6.5kWh battery, 20 x 330w mono PERC panels and 1 x Growatt 5kW single phase hybrid inverter for $8.000!

    The basic 20 panels with a 5kw Inverter sounds the best value for $3,000.

    Anyway hopefully there are not too many dodgy operators out there!?!

    Thanks everybody.

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    Not Quite sure what part of my ramblings you are referring to specifically.

    Yes, the guy could well have been doing that. You can get inverters on Fleabay Called power jacks The small ones can plug right into a power point and backfeed from Panels or batterys or both. They aren't approved but neither is anything I have either. If he got the batteries REALLY cheap or for free would be worth while. If he bought them new and then figure in the cost of the inverter, the payback could be years. It WILL be better than a retail system though that is for sure.

    Was talking to a guy today who was given 2 Forklift battery packs.
    A tesla power wall which is $15 K plus is 12 Kwh. These battery's the guy has are 120Kwh!
    Average all electric home would use around 20 Kwh. 6 days worth is a lot of capacity.

    From what I have looked at, Forklift battery's are the best bang for the buck. By the time you add inverters and charge controllers etc not to mention all the wiring, I still can't make even used packs add up. If they want to put me on one of those smart arse meters, I Will look at them though. Being on the grid offers a LOT of benefits though like basically unlimited power any time you want it. Lot to be said for that.
    Some people might be able to save on used/ refurb forklift packs but they would be very far and few between if they were grid connected and had solar. I can't think of a scenario where you could, but someone out there probably has some unusual circumstances where it may work for them but it sure wouldn't be Joe average in the burbs and family.

    I also happened to be talking to my fathers Neighbour this morning. Nice enough bloke but bloody strange. He's the biggest tight arse out there except when it comes to buying things he thinks will save him money. He wanted to know when I was coming back up to Dads as he wants me to help him set up a battery solar System. I gave him a load of panels in Feb. He said he wanted to play around with some and I had some spare so I took him up 4 Kw worth. He then showed me some new deep cycle battery's he bought. We were talking and he was asking how long they would last and I was trying to educate him on basic electrics.

    Seems at some point I said that he should not run them down below 50% and only taking 25% off them would be better...which is correct. Now he's gone out and bought another 2. Over $1200 in batteries. for $1500 he could have bought a forklift pack with maybe 10X the capacity. I was trying to really encourage if he could take the ones he bought BACK not get him to buy more! The thing is this guy lives on his own and really doesn't do anything that I can see would use a lot of power anyway. I tried to tell him best way to go was exactly what I set up for Dad, rewind the meter with an regular inverter but seems he's hell bent on going off grid. Tried to tell him a number of times it is NOT cheaper but..... I think he reads a lot of crackpot things on the net.

    He already spent $7000 Last year on water tanks so he can turn off the mains water. His actual water bill was about $30 less access fee which I'm told he will still have to pay anyway. I have heard conflicting info on that but if it's true, it's going to take him a VERY long time to pay off that $7K. Also if we get another drought and he has to buy water in.... He's Going to have to live to 154 Years old to recoup his investment.

    If he turns off the power ( already turned off his electric hot water!!) Then he is going to have to get a decent inverter just to run the water pump and as usual, I can't see the battery's lasting long enough to pay themselves off. I did a rough Calc today talking to him and it's going to take at least 5.5 years on what they can store and the cost savings that will make.
    I can't see them lasting that long as they are just basically deep cycle marine batterys.

    He said he Just runs a smaller TV, lamp, Radio and of course the fridge at night and I said in that case you are probably using 30-60 Cents worth of power.

    I could have set him up with an inverter as he had some panels already besides what I gave him and wired it all up on a grid back feed for under $400 and he would have saved money straight off and been able to hot showers and run the AC in summer. He'll be shoving shit up hill to do that at least 6 Months of the year now.
    I could give him more panels and connect his hot water to them which would be ok for hot showers in summer at least but, where he and dad are they are surrounded by 100 Ft Gum trees., Dad has some decent clearing, the neighbours place is in about 80% Shade.

    Between what he has spent on water tanks and Batteries so far, he Probably would have covered his Bills for the next 5 years and beyond just doing as he was.... with the hot water turned on!

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    Quote Originally Posted by David071 View Post
    There are certainly plenty of deals going! A lot of them sound like cowboy's (guess!?!). Have seen a lot of 6.6 kw systems for $2,500 - $3,000 for an inverter and a whole heap of panels (20). Just have to work out the best one to go with!?!
    Don't put much into the numbers, look at the specifics.

    What BRAND of panels are you getting? Some who flung Dung thing that may be on the CEC list now and the importers will have pissed off in a years time or a well known Middle of the road brand like Jinko or Canadian that have been here forever? It's Important and in this game , the LAST person you should listen to is the Vulture selling the things.

    Also I would not go for a Grow watt inverter. Fronious are not cheap but are money well spent

    Some Tips:

    Have someone come out and visit your property. DO NOT have them go by satellite Photos or tell you they can't come out due to China flu or other bullshit.
    If they can't be fked Coming to look at your place, don't be fked talking to them any more.
    Couldn't say how many times I have read of people getting a quote on systems, saying yeah come do it and then when they get there they discover some problem and it ALWAYS costs the customer more and they usually end up with less as well. The doodgys will always avoid coming out before hand. The reputable ones really need to have a bo peep at your electrical box etc. Doodgys will ask you to send them pics but that doesen't tell them a lot of info like what is behind the panel.
    Insist on an inspection and if they won't, that's good, one more to cross off the list and narrow things down.

    DO NOT EVER pay up front. That's a sure way to get ripped in this game. SMALL deposit if you have to, money when the system is approved and back feeding to the grid. Do anything else and you are begging for trouble. It's obvious, If they get paid up front what motivation have they got to do a good job or fix problems?
    NONE!


    PERC panels while having some advantages have also proved problematic. They are not a guarantee of quality and myself, I would avoid them at this time. If they are some no name never heard of Chinese thing ( and many are made in China now) RUN. Stick to middle of the road brand name established brands.

    Are they doing the meter upgrade? If not how much extra is that going to cost and when can it be done? This one is a real minefield and a real trap. Sort it in advance.

    Ask for an inverter with a 10 Yr warranty and one that has hot water diversion built in. This will cost extra but IS worth it and will help you make the biggest gains in savings.

    You get a lot more for a little extra so I'd tend to be looking more at the 4k systems than the 3. That will get you a quality job with decent panels and a GOOD inverter. I wouldn't give a rats about wi fi monitoring and all that but if you want it, For Fks sake make sure THEY set it up. It's another Huge problem for a lot of installs so if they offer it, make sure they will set the shit up and not have you tearing your hair out with it.

    Where exactly are they going to put the inverter?
    Inside an attached garage is best even for an outdoor unit. If they are going to put it on a north wall, Unless it's shaded all the time ( unlikely) have them put it inside or get someone else that is competent and will put it out the sun.

    Make sure they include all electrical upgrades to your board if needed.... which sounds likely.

    Of course get everything in writing down to panel brand and model number and same with inverter.

    Don't leave anything to chance or on the word of the salesman. You are getting into a dangerous pit full of vipers here, make no mistake so make sure you cover your arse every way you can Including checks with fair trading in your state to see the history and background of the company.
    You DO need to be that careful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    Not Quite sure what part of my ramblings you are referring to specifically.

    Yes, the guy could well have been doing that. You can get inverters on Fleabay Called power jacks The small ones can plug right into a power point and backfeed from Panels or batterys or both. They aren't approved but neither is anything I have either.
    Yeah, i should of replied with quotes.. my apologies.. thanks, you answered my question. The golf cart batteries were at wholesale prices and i reckon a few were freebies (he looked shifty) lol. So, maybe it's worthwhile for him ? he seemed to know enough about electrics. He said he plugs it into the wall socket at night and uses batt power till it drains down to 50% then the mains take over.

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    IT's not a matter if it works, it's just about scale of economy. If the investment saving money cost you more than the money you save, it's a loss.
    My Dads neighbour does this really well.

    Maybe the guy worked at a golf course where they had electric carts and got them from there?
    There are a lot of sources of batteries at the right price, many are just replaced on a time basis so they don't fail on critical equipment. If you are in the right place with the right access, one could set up a very effective system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnno View Post
    Yeah, i should of replied with quotes.. my apologies.. thanks, you answered my question. The golf cart batteries were at wholesale prices and i reckon a few were freebies (he looked shifty) lol. So, maybe it's worthwhile for him ? he seemed to know enough about electrics. He said he plugs it into the wall socket at night and uses batt power till it drains down to 50% then the mains take over.
    A bit OT but there's actually a bit of a rort going on with 'mobility scooter' batteries, or so I've been told. (which aren't far off being golfcart batts) As the story goes, there's some govt. thing ..subsidy I think, that pays for replacement battery sets once per year, regardless of the battery condition/state. Some of the old timers around the local town, have started making an extra quid, by selling their perfectly good year old batteries on the cheap.

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    Johnno (03-05-20)

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