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Thread: Waaaaant!!!!

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    Default Waaaaant!!!!



    I just dream that I can afford it!!!!! The concepts in the video are interesting!
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Pretty much the same concept as my Mitsu PHEV just a whole lot more power but based on that output the 16.6kWh battery capacity looks a bit weak
    I have 1000km range, combined power only 210kW but 12kWh battery that does also 50km only electric range.
    This era of thoughtless consumption must end so we can encourage a world of creative geniuses rather than consumer idiots.


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    4 motors.... I can see these cars getting like the current range of razors.
    16 engines for the clean get away
    If u want to go on an expedition get a Land Rover, if u want to come home from an expedition get a Landcruiser!

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    2L doing 600Hp @ 8500 Rpm. that's going to be a long life motor!
    Not!

    OK in a race car but for a road car..... Spose if you can afford one you can afford to have the motor rebuilt ever couple of years or so. not that these things are going to be racking up 20K Km a year.

    I think for the run of the mill electrics this China Flu has set them back many years.
    No one is going to be Rushing to pay 2-3X as much for an electric as they can get an IC for when the economy is in the crapper and millions have gone from a secure position to being out of work. Add to that the fact one of the biggest spin doctoring factors for EV's was the Climate Change Hysteria which has also now Crashed and burned in the smoking heap it deserved all along and the whole " We'll all be Driving EV's by 20XX" is well and truly blown out of the water.

    Maybe the Likes of Hyuandai and Kia may get a couple of economy EV models going if they can price them close to the IC models but for the middle of the road Ford/ GM/ Chrysler and others like Merc and Jag etc, I can see them having to do a backflip.
    Tesla will be real interesting. The wisdom of building a factory in Chinaah will remain to be seen as will their sales in the post China Flu 3-5 Years.
    Still got 3 years to run on my " They will be gone in 5 years " prediction and I'd hate the fan bois to have the excuse that it was all to do with the Chinnah flu.

    Then again, they are always going to have SOME excuse to defend their Demi god and company as well as save face for themselves so I spose it does not really change anything what takes them out.

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    I'm waiting for the Trabbant version.
    Four seat plastic shell pieces, aluminium frame, simple electric motors with an open source platform and enough power to do 120kph and batteries for 400km range preferably swapable cartridges.
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    I've been looking at motor bikes and there are a few electric models available. If they could handle travelling 1 or 2 thousand ks in a day without having to stuff around for hours re-charging (if I could find a charge point around Innamincka, that is) then I might consider one. At least I can carry a can of Petrol with me.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    If they could handle travelling 1 or 2 thousand ks in a day without having to stuff around for hours re-charging (if I could find a charge point around Innamincka, that is) then I might consider one. At least I can carry a can of Petrol with me.
    Don't know where anyone could practically travel 2000K a day on a bike but I'd suggest it would not be in oz. Even at a constant 100KMH, that's 20 hours.

    None the less, this is a big thing I have with electrics.
    My father lives just under 400Km away. In my present cars or on my bike I can do it in 4 hours no problem.
    There are only a few EV cars I can do that in atm and they are over $100K and closer to $200 for at least 1. If I want to tow even a box trailer, I cannot do it in 4 hours because the range would be adversely affected so that I would have to recharge. Most will only just do that to start with, no margin at all for loading the things up and lessening the range. There are no fast chargers along the way so it's an hour Minimum, Probably more to get a part charge to make it. I'd also have to detour off the highway because there are only 2 places to get fuel on the highway and neither of them have chargers and one being a typical small country servo, I can't see them having the money to put in Charging facilities or the traffic to justify them.

    Now if I actually want to put a decent load in that trailer, say 500Kg or tow an inboard boat, then it's pretty much a day trip because I will need some hours of charging along the way. Often now I leave after dinner and I'm home well before my normal bed time anyway. With an EV, that's another day to travel instead of an evening. When travelling I'm more time fatigue based than effort based. X hours behind the wheel or X hours to get somewhere with stops makes no difference to me.
    The longer I travel the more I fade so getting where I'm going in a timely manner is safer to me than stopping and stretching the trip out to where I can properly relax. Sitting somewhere half way along for a couple of hours would stress and tire me out a lot more than just driving there without having to hang around.
    Sitting round doing nothing DOES tire me more than just driving along and I think this would apply to a lot of people. Stopping after 3-4 hours for a feed, pit stop and a coffee is one thing, hanging round for an hour or 2 is something else. And no, stopping every 2 hours would shit me to tears for the same reason of stretching the trip out too much. In my younger days, The only time I would stop is when the car ran out of fuel which was about 6 hours.... or when the Mrs made too much noise when I had the 150L long range tank.

    The problem with EV's all comes back to energy density in batteries and to meet that of Liquid fuels, battery's are going to have to have something like 20X better capacity. It's the reason why the idea of electric Aircraft is a joke. Sure there are already some small trainers with swappable battery packs around but for anything commercial and even short distance, they are a very LONG way off. That's fine, things take time but shits me to tears with the electric fanbois go on and on about it like we will be flying even Melbourne to Brisbane on an electric plane next week and anyone that isn't behind the whole EV hysteria has something wrong with them.

    I was up with my father last week Cutting wood for him and I cut a shipload.... all with the electric ( battery) Chainsaw. It's great, I love the thing BUT, it's OK for me to cut up a couple of ( Big) logs, swap the battery and go again till it's flat and then wait till the first is finished recharging and fire up the Petrol splitter till it's ready to go. Not a problem but the bottom line is an electric can't meet the performance and more over, endurance of a serious petrol saw. For one thing they don't even make electrics with a 24" bar that I know of and if you put one on, one would be over taxing the thing. You could build in a bigger motor and put in a bigger battery but then you are probably over size and over weight of just having a petrol saw and the cost would be prohibitive anyway.

    I love the battery saw and it DOES have some serious grunt, up to a point but the thing is limited within it's abilities just like electric everything else at this stage.
    Even with things like heating, electric is piss weak compared to liquid and sold fuels. A decent size car battery ( lead acid admittedly) has a volume of around 4L and a capacity of around 1KWh. Put petrol or diesel in that same battery case and you have around 50Kwh. Yes, electric is more efficient but it's a long way short of 50X more efficent. You can also " Recharge" that liquid fuel battery in 20 seconds easily and conservatively. Battery's are and will always be limited in the amount of power you can pump back into them in a given time. That is also more true when you have just been using that battery and it's already heated up.
    The electric Chain saw and the other cordless tools I have all look at the battery temp when you put them in the charger and sometimes won't even start to charge for 20 min till they cool. Yes, EV's have cooling systems on the batteries but it's still a limitation and an inefficiency.

    I suspect the limit atm is more the cost than the ability factor but until things develop, and there are some SERIOUS hurdles in that, electric will be a very limited application such as cars for short range like going to work or grocery getters. In the City they won't ease congestion or traffic problems, in the burbs not many people want to pay $30K+ for the second run around car. The prices will of course fall but the trade of is unlike a 10 yo IC that does not need a lot of expense to keep it going, a 10 YO EV will be well at the end of it's battery pack or well past and it's already clear that the cost of a replacement, even refurb is well beyond what the vehicles will be worth. As much as people want to tout it, Recycling an EV is not near as environmentally friendly as running an IC for another 10 years.

    The other thing is, which will stirr up the fanbois is evs are NOT as cheap as is made out.
    The other thing to consider is as demand goes up so will the price of power especially at EV charging stations and in peak holiday times and, The price of liquid fuels will come down as the demand waivers ( IF EVs make any inroads) just like we have seen it plummet the last moth or so. This will make the economics of EV's even harder to justify. The oil co's won't want to loose out on their profits just as the gubbermint won't want to loose it's slice of the huge revenue they make on fuel now so EVs will obviously be taxed higher than they are now. This may be in registration or by a system such as NZ has where you pay in advance for Miles driven.
    Anyone whom thinks the enviro thing is going to last once gubbermints start looking revenue and they will keep patting them on the head because they are clean and green is in for a surprise. Bottom line is, For the next decade at least, they simply won't be able to AFFORD to loose any revenue especially from the major cash cows.

    With the amount of solar I have, I could save some money on fuel with an EV. Right now, even an electric Bicycle is cost prohibitive and EV's would not repay themselves even if I could charge them for nothing. I have looked at conversions and they just don't add up. Fine if you are doing it because you want to or for fun. Mate of mine in the states is building one as a performance / Drag car but it's a weekend car not a practical one. EVs do have some practical uses for a limited range of applications but it will be a long time before they can take on the practicality of an IC and it's capabilities.

    This alone may even make them have a think and take a step back from pushing EV's especially since the whole Climate change Con is pretty much dead and buried and not going to be anywhere near where it was on the voters priorities it was a few months back.

    The other major factor is powering the things. The grid goes into meltdown now when it's a hot day and everyone turns on their 3 KW AC. I don't think it will do well at night when there is no solar input and everyone is trying to pull 20Kw Minimum or wants to fast charge at 100KW.
    80% of the power still comes from coal and gas so running the energy through a couple of conversion cycles does not help efficiency much either.

    I can't see electrics coming near the predictions now not that I ever thought they had a hope in hell before the China flu screwed the world. The biggest thing for the car makers was it was a reason for people to buy a new car and a huge profit opportunity. Now with what is sure to be a global economic down turn and vehicle sales are going to be one of the first things to drop, I cant see the manufacturers sinking more fortunes into developing cars that are at odds with the economic situation apart from everyone else. People will probably be trying to get into cheaper cars and make them fill their needs not trying to get into more exy cars that Can't do what their old ones did.

    I don't think the Future is Bright for Tesla not that I ever did but a big black cloud that no one saw coming is really hanging over them and the whole EV ideal right now. EV's may be as capable as Liquid fuel cars one da,y but that day is a bloody long way off yet and probably won't be seen by the majority here. There is also the good chance in that time that some other tech will come along which will be better. I have serious reservations about Hydrogen but who knows. Time something else really practical comes along, Teleportation might be too and the whole thing of transport Vehicles will become redundant.

    The real underlying decider of any new tech will be it's ability to make money. If you can't charge for it or Tax it, it will never become mainstream and probably be outlawed for good measure.
    Last edited by george65; 25-05-20 at 03:14 PM.

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    When travelling backwards and forwards between Darwin and Adelaide we frequently did it non-stop. I've even done the trip by myself in just over 30 hours.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    When travelling backwards and forwards between Darwin and Adelaide we frequently did it non-stop. I've even done the trip by myself in just over 30 hours.
    That's a long arse trip!

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    Cannnonball !
    Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trash View Post
    Cannnonball !
    If you did it in an EV you could probably be beaten by someone driving a 1965 Stock VW beetle who never exceeded the speed limit for the whole trip.

    Imagine how long that 30 Hour trip would blow out to in an EV! Probably be getting on for 4-5 days.

    Saw an article on a tow test the NRMA did last year. Took a caravan from Sydney over the blue mountains to Bathurst with a Tesla. They got to Bathurst, 160Km and then had to recharge for 2.5 Hours because that was the fastest charger they had available and the thing wasn't going to make it any further without a top up.
    Yeah, that's going to be a great way to tour anywhere. Flat out doing 300Km a day and bored shitless hanging around waiting for the thing to recharge. If you were going from a standard outlet, could take 15 hours. You wouldn't generally stop that long over night if you were just trying to get somewhere.

    Maybe people could cover the caravan roof with panels to get them further.
    You never know, that extra 10 Km range may come in handy when you were out the back of nowhere stranded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    If you did it in an EV you could probably be beaten by someone driving a 1965 Stock VW beetle who never exceeded the speed limit for the whole trip.
    OT but the BS mileage stats re EV's are just that.............total BS as soon as you factor in wind resistance when traveling @ highway speeds

    You 'might' get close to the stated mileage in ideal city driving conditions but as soon as you hit 90/100/110 you battery drains much faster

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    I have seen some range Charts, I think from Tesla, RE the range at different speeds. From what I recall the fall off was not that much at legal road speeds. Cold weather seems to affect them more.

    The thing is they are all pretty aero efficient now BUT, as soon as you tow something which is not aero as no Trailer, boat or even aero van is relatively as well as adding weight, the range Plummets.

    I do agree with you over all, just like any car the Mileage of EV's is over stated just as IC fuel economy was. I saw a recent YT vid where they got 5 or so EV's and ran them till they stopped to test the mileage claims. the best they got was about 85% and they certainly gave them every advantage rather than rigging the test the other way.

    I have also seen a number of vids and reports that flat out make a mockery of the charging times in the real world. Be it from superchargers or what ever, they ALWAYS take longer than claimed. The tesla superchargers also have a thing where they divide the power if 2 cars are on the same charger at once. This is well known amongst owners and if you hook up to a super charger that someone is already on the other side of, Your charging time will be MUCH slower and you will get far less power than the 100 Kw or whatever they are rated to. I think the new ones are 150 but still throttle back.

    I have always posed the real life problem I see several times a year traveling north from Sydney.
    On the express way there are 2 Service centre road houses on each side of the road known as the twin servos. At any holiday time they are packed and the cars line up the offroad trying to get in. They have about 50 Pumps plus food etc.

    If every car takes say 10 min to refuel, pay and move off, you are talking about a throughput of 6 cars an hour by 50 pumps so 300 Cars total. I would say they are quicker than 10 min but for arguments sake....
    Now lets blow that out to 50 charging stations. Lets say not every car needs a full charge there so it's 45 Min per car. You now have LESS than 66 cars an hour going through there so you now need to put in 200 plus charging stations to cope with the same inadequate throughput you had with the IC vehicles.

    that's all well and good but lest say each of those cars is charging at just 50 Kw... which in the main would blow out that 45 min charge time to start with but again for arguments sake and round Numbers that play devils advocate. 50kw x 200 Kw is 10 Mw.... Just for the charging. Then you are going to have a shitload of people in the restaurant which is going to suck a heap more power in cooking, lighting, AC etc so add at least another 200kW for that.
    Then there is another of these things right across the road.

    The average given for one MW of power is enough to run 650 homes. So you are talking about well and truly more power than 6500 homes are consuming, each side of the highway or over 13,000 homes between the 2 places.
    I don't know if there is an " average" suburb size but I'm pretty sure that's more than one farking big suburb!

    And remember, this is just 2 servos. 200Km up the road you are going to need the same setup with the same demoands and another 200Km up the highway from there and.... Then you are going to need a Bunch of motels with charging facilities that can at least charge 30 or however many cars they have rooms over night.

    Now some of the ignorant would start pointing to solar and batterys without having the first clue the amount of panels and the size and cost of the batterys required to meet those demands let alone those of the rest of the normal power demand that vehicles just don't impose right now. I have heard idiot rebuttals that the land is cheap near highways and solar farms could power these servos. Well the ones I am thinking of that I drive past are not in an area where land is cheap at all and not even all that flat which seems to be a requisite of solar farms. OF course then you are talking about mega battery's that cost millions as well and would only be fully utilised a number of times a year. Don't know who's going to pay for or invest in that and if they do, what the cost of that power is going to be to recoup said investment.

    And again, we are faced with blackouts now whenever a hot day comes and people want to use an extra 1.5 -3 Kw with their air con and we are talking about a good portion of the 19.5 Million cars in oz all being charged up?? Do the math on if just 5% of them, 1 Million, charge up at 50 KWh a day and see how many power stations let alone solar and wind farms on the piss poor efficiency they have on rated capacity that's going to take.

    It's a complete and utter fantasy!

    Oh but wait, people are going to charge them from their home solar systems aren't they? Nice trick when everyone is on holidays but anyway...
    Even if people have a Modern system at 6.5 Kw, in summer in Sydney they will generate about 36 Kwh. that means they will still be sucking from the grid for the car AND the house which the Solar now supplies. Net result, still a major shortfall. And the answer isn't more roof top solar because the power cos are endlessly pissing and moaning rooftop solar is overloading the grid and trying all they can to curtail it.
    That's sure as hell going to stop when the grid is falling way short. They will be as they should be doing now encouraging every spare rooftop to have solar .

    Then again, loads of travellers come home at night so the solar isn't going to help there.

    I have yet to see a CREDITABLE or PRACTICAL solution to very basic and obvious problem with an electrified vehicle fleet and this doesn't even touch on the commercial Vehicle side and the problems with that.
    Loads of greenwashed Idiotic Crap ideals that are laughable in a cost and practicality perspective but I am yet to see any remotely Viable suggestions as to where all this power for the EV fleet they are talking about we will all be driving in 10 years ( Bwhahaha!) is going to come from.

    Not even any practical suggestions as to how you are going to be able to tow a Box trailer 400Km in the same time as you can now with an EV.

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    Along the similar lines of practicality, expensive greenie alternatives vs hydrocarbons.

    Pushing solar onto the 3rd world as an energy solution, ok for a few humpies in the bush, but these countries need proper infrastructure if they are to develop, base load capacity with coal or gas fired generation, something that can support industry, process and value add to their resources and provide jobs ,not outhouse lights. This is just BS away of keeping them 3rd world and the developed world free to burn up the hydrocarbon resources.

    I don't see any developed countries demolishing their traditional power generation facilities to replace it with puff puff and solar, ok they piss about with it but base load, no way.

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    No one has ever said we want Pollouted air , land and sea but the minute you point out the gaping flaws in unreliable energy like Solar and Wind, that's exactly what the greenwashed start accusing people of when they don't tow their ideals and green religion.

    I have done a lot of researching off grid power systems and even at a domestic level, I am yet to find anyone that relies on solar or wind even for their home that does not have a backup FF generator. When the difficulty of powering a single home with RE is so apparent, how in the hell these greenwashed fruitcakes think you can power an entire grid with it is beyond me.

    I have a Shitload of solar on my place, over 20KW worth atm. For the last 5 days the weather has been over cast and crap and there is no way I could put enough panels up to supply the power I need to run and heat my home. Multiply that by everyone on the grid and the Businesses, factories, Hospitals, Schools and infrastructure that has no where near the space to be self sufficent and it's obvious it's not viable. Anyone that thinks a grid can get by on RE alone is either a moron or ignoring what they well know and telling lies to push an agenda..... that comes from those making big bucks out of pushing fairy tales.

    It is well known that RE in any form other than Hydro produces only a fraction of it's nameplate capacity. Wind on average around the world produces just 13% of the power it is supposed to. The Greenwashed will tell you the wind is always blowing somewhere. So what? That's like saying its always raining somewhere. Not much benefit if it's raining where they already have flood and you are in Drought or if the amount of rain you are getting is not enough which is typical for wind. They like to grandstand how a wind facility will make 100Mw but they never tell you that the times it actually makes 100Mw are extremely far and few between and it's average output is going to be just 13 mw. Big shortfall and big inefficency both power wise and money wise.

    The whole power industry in Oz is rotten to the core. They talk BS about being green and all that then do everything to limit or deter Rooftop solar they can while putting their hand out to the Gubbermint to prop up their Bullshit wind and solar farms they say produce cheap power but the more of this Cheap, gubbermint funded unreliable facilities they build, the more the price of power goes up!. The more solar farms they blight the landscape with the more the power shortages will shift. Won't be the hot days with everyone using AC we will have to worry about, will be the cold shitty days where the solar does jack and everyone is switching on heating.

    Add to that a few days of bad weather and everyone has to charge their EV's and the solar is providing nothing and where will the power come from?
    Oh yeah, those supposed batteries that the largest in the world in SA, a minor state, can only supply 30,000 of the 180,000 homes the state has for a grand total of 1 hour. It cost over $50m so how much is that going to be to power all the houses, businesses and industry even for 12 hours..... assuming it never gets cloudy and reduces the ability for the RE to supply the daytime load with sufficient power left over to recharge the battery's for the Night Demand.

    People who talk about batteries have no idea WTF they are crapping on about but that doesn't stop them pushing their idiotic agenda.

    Right now here in oz the green zealots are pissing their pants with excitement about the Snowy 2.0 Pumped hydro scheme. You turn the excess RE power from the day to pumping Millions of litres of water up hill. At Night you let it run back down and use the energy stored in the water to run Turbines that generate power.
    Great idea..... apart from the astronomical construction cost, the environmental damage, the fact you have to blight the landscape with more solar farts and wind Turdbines and if you get an over cast day, your fooked and no lights on that night.
    If it goes ahead this will be another monumental environmental disaster and a complete and utter failure. Perfectly obvious from the outset but with billions in contracts to be made, who cares if it will actualy work or not right? Lets just push the ideal and when it falls on it's arse, big biz will have already been paid, the directors got their Multi million bonuses and it will be some other suckers problem to deal with.

    For all it's faults and drawbacks, Fossil fuel WILL be be the mainstay of power grids for the foreseeable future except for the handful of countries that have the luxury resource of unlimited Hydro like Norway or Geo like NZ. For the rest of the world that does not have these reliable and green resources, unless we want our country to be a banana republic, we have to use the coal and gas we have and build a secure and reliable grid on that.

    The sooner we develop these Techs into cleaner processes rather than try to kid ourselves we can do without them, the better.

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