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Thread: Power Assist Bike - ex Stolen

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    Default Power Assist Bike - ex Stolen

    Hi all,
    At least the pubs are now open guys...

    I have purchased an 'electric bike'. It claims to have a top speed of 25km - whilst being pedaled, lol!
    Purchased 'as is' from an OP shop that it was a stolen bike that the police hand over when not claimed. I was actually there when the police dropped it off (as well as 10 other normal bikes). So I made an offer right there and then...

    This is the company I assume it was purchased from. It has a QR code "For Service and Repair contact Mytopia" sticker on the frame.


    On taking the battery out I found the ignition switch drilled out (This switch is underneath the frame, so was not openly visible).


    As it's a folding bike, the battery makes contact with the frame via;


    Actual Bike:


    On the right hand grip there appears to be a 'button' missing - I assume that when the ignition switch is on, this 'button' should do something.?


    The right drip has an inner twist throttle and the normal up/down gear selector (grey is 654321, black thumb is 123456 and Front brake.


    The ignition switch is part of the battery and a replacement from Mytopia is $260.. - IF - it fits, as mine is only 6Ah.


    The battery:






    I have contacted Mytopia re about the grip 'button' but they are very automated and Mytopia sell everything!!!

    I can get a replacement battery from overseas for about $170 (BUT only the internal green wrapped type - I'd have to dig out this one from all the foam/vibration insulation, then put the RAW one in the case.).
    However, it's the grip 'button' that looks like it's part of the LCD screen combo that it bothering me!

    The battery measured 1.9v (So who knows how long the cops have had it in storage - I'm surprised it even took a charge!), and as I don't have a 42v lithium charger (have ordered one from eBay), I only had a 30v 3A desk top power supply on hand. The battery charged up to 30v and after about 4 days it is down to 24v.

    So I can bypass the ignition switch with a normal rocker, yeah?

    What do you guys think is the missing part on the grip?

    1) Should I bypass the switch and at 30v put the battery in and see what happens..? LOL!
    2) Or wait till I get the charger, get it to 38v+ and then put it in?
    3) Recommend any tests before melting something...

    Cheers,
    GT250.

    EDIT: The charging socket is just visible on the last photo, a normal nipple type, lower right.
    Last edited by GT250; 11-06-20 at 05:56 PM.



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    Off the top of my head, my thinking would be, why bother with setting up OEM, can you make something else do the job.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    I would make temporary connections and make sure every thing works before spending any money.
    Hook it up and take for a spin.
    If all's good then spend the money.

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    the images in that link show the missing button to be a key ignition switch. Maybe some kind of safety over ride or a dynamic parking brake ? Looks a very expensive bike too , a very strong theft risk.

    personally ive found factory claims of distance capability and speed under load to be ridiculous , so I would put the money towards some other setup to power and charge the motor

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    Hi,
    I've found this lock for the battery that may fit, on a quick google image search

    In my Ebike, the hole on the handle bar has a key to turn the bike on-off, mine does not have the second lock at the bottom as yours, but the key in the battery physically moves a pin that stops the battery assembly from sliding out of the bike frame. In your case looks like they also use that to disconnect the battery too.

    Looks alike a nice bike too, enjoy it!!
    Last edited by ammlione; 12-06-20 at 12:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reschs View Post
    I would make temporary connections and make sure every thing works before spending any money.
    Hook it up and take for a spin.
    If all's good then spend the money.
    It will not work if he can't get something to charge at least 38V.

    The battery management is inside the alu-box with the all the foam. What you are measuring is irrelevant until you can give it the proper charge voltage.
    The Li-Ion cells are likely OK, that is what the battery management is for.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-06-20 at 05:54 PM.
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    Hi all,

    Well, the charger arrived today and I got the battery properly charged and fitted it...!
    No power when twisting the throttle

    On the bright side, the Horn and front Light (HL) works...


    I took apart the twist grip and here is what I found.



    The round thing I am holding now turns out to be the real ignition switch (and as ammlione as found out the lower 'ignition' switch is just a battery locking thing).

    If I turn it with a screwdriver I get no HL, but a click to the right I get the HL. Another turn to the right the HL works again...! Another turn no HL..


    So the HL works in both turns...!

    1 Is the Hall Effect sensor and slots into 3.

    4 was connected to 2 I think (as I was turning and examining the wiring it came off).
    I have no idea where 5 goes...?

    If I connect 4 to 2 and measure the voltage on the left side of the hall sensor (you can see the three connections), is measures 5vdc.

    The White, Yellow, and Brown all measure 39.xx volts. I assume when the HL are working...
    There is no display on the voltage screen.


    Hi VroomVroom, they aren't 'that' expensive. I include the link in my OP near the top., About $800 new.

    Good find ammlione It does look like it. But I don't think I need it. It only appears to be a battery removal lock.

    Taking out the controller, I did notice a 'electrical smell'. I'm hoping it's ok..

    But can't find a replacement on ebay...

    So where would 5 go to..?

    Many thanks for everyone's help so far people..

    Cheers,
    GT250.
    Last edited by GT250; 12-06-20 at 06:14 PM.

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    So how many volts are on wire 5 ?

    You got to trace the wiring back to the speed controller.
    The controller needs the +39V direct from the battery thick red wire and a second +39V from the ignition switch thinner red wire.
    Trace the wires that it gets that.
    Then focus on the throttle.
    The throttle must output in the range between 1.1V - 4.4V. I see a black plug with red green and black on the last pic with the speed controller. That is likely the throttle control. Red +5V, green 1.1 - 4.4V (throttle max) and black ground. Test it, follow the leads to the throttle PCB, probably a small board where the LEDs are to show the Battery state and where the HALL sensor goes. If it is the 5V you should see closely where it broke off from the soldering blob.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 12-06-20 at 07:14 PM.
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    Morning all,

    I will be having a go at the bike later, but I found an interesting thing in some old photo's.

    I took this one before I really started to twist and turn everything around the hall effect area.

    1 (hard to see behind the red wire, but I think I'm right), is the black wire connected to the middle black of the Hall effect sensor.

    But 2 is the red wire not connected to anything!

    I wonder if the red wire should be connected to the 36v feed from the rotary switch - assuming because the Voltage display has to show 36volts and the black wire is purely ground..?




    The next photo is weird:

    Note 1 and 2 - found them disconnected! Will fit perfectly. Same colours. It would be nigh impossible for them to have come loose on their own..!

    Also the white wires at 3 were unplugged. Some research says they are 'Fault finding or Status wires'...? So I think they can stay unplugged.




    I'm going to try and apply some voltage to the rear wheel to see if the motor spins without any horrible noises

    Also, this bike apparently has a Brake Cut out connection. So when the Brake is applied it cuts the power to the motor. So in my testing I'm going to have to make sure that I'm not putting the brake on to try and get the thing to move...


    As this bike seems to require a lot of connections all to be working in order to move, why would that ignition style battery removing lock have Pos and Neg wires going to it?
    As the twist grip 'barrel' seems to also be a key turn thing (from what I've seen on some sites).
    In it's broken state, I'm assuming that if the Light and Horn are working, the battery is 'talking' to the rest of the bike (speed controller)?

    All good fun...


    Uncle Fester: I can see where the black was connected, but where the red went, so far at least. Lot's of solder on those barrel wires though!
    I'll find out the voltage on wire 5 later.
    In fact as you say, the display might not show voltage, but may show the state... Maybe not then a good idea to allow 38volts into it

    I see lots of twist grips on Aliexpress with displays going cheap. I wonder how 'compatible' the wire colours and connections in this e-bike/scooter speed controller industry is...?

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    Hi all,
    Update:

    I have a display on the screen...




    I had to do some mucking around with some soldering around the twist grip and I ended up with that Red wire 1 connecting it to the Brown on the barrel.

    So the twist grip is assembled but not securely as the plastic housing that would retain the 'barrel and Hall Sensor' has been broken and there is only two of the four screws holding it in place - and the missing plastic is the main 'pressure' area on the hall effect sensor that has to slot in, by the side of the twist throttle.

    1 is where the hall effect sensor goes. 2 and 3 are where I cannot put any screws in. But on putting the plastic housing and screwing in the other two screws it 'looked'
    tight enough.




    I have connected those Green Red Black connectors together.

    On twisting the throttle, I get nothing! H&L are working and the Display is on. The bike is folded in half (as I work on it), the battery is on the floor with the battery interface 'resting' on top'! The twist grip is just hanging around...

    I never got a chance to test the motor.
    As I work Sundays, I might get to testing that early next week

    All good fun...

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    Quote Originally Posted by GT250 View Post
    On twisting the throttle, I get nothing!
    Is it a pedelec? To avoid being classed as a motorbike (and needing registration, ADR compliance etc) many electric bikes will only assist you while you are pedaling and doing less than 25km/h. Total pain to fault find if that's the case.

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    Hi Shred,
    You might be right!

    I managed to get a manual for a very similar bike called a Valk.
    Mentions putting pressure on the pedals for assist to activate...


    So looks like I'll have to reassemble it all and give it a test.
    It'll have to be Monday before I get chance to do it.




    Cheers,
    GT250.

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    Ive hired quite a few E bikes in Japan , and they all needed to be pedaled in order for assistance to the motor .they use a sensor on the pedal cranks. Razor scooters uses the same concept , they need to be kicked along for the motor to start. Also , the various positions on the handlebar might be for various loads , like low effort assist / high effort assist , along with the throttle itself.
    if you pass a metal plate or magnet near the hall sensor , will that fool it into switching on?

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    Hi all,
    Big day! So not much time - need to retire, like half of you lot...

    I reconnected everything and took it out for a spin, but no good
    Pedaling away like a man possessed I was...!

    The Led display, light and horn were active.

    So, as mentioned by Uncle Fester, I will have a go at measuring the voltage from the hall effect sensor - which I think is the B/R/G connector?
    Which if you remember I found disconnected.

    Stupid me! I need to step back...
    As Uncle Fester has said before. I have to trace back the wires from the twist grip to the controller.

    It can't be the B/R/G wires. Maybe they are meant to be disconnected...!?


    Problem I have (and I'm thinking it is the Hall effect so far), is that if I'm not getting any voltages as I twist the throttle (with the horn and light on) - am I supposed to be pedaling the bike for the speed controller to acknowledge the 'feedback' for it to talk to the Hall Effect sensor...?

    I must say that in all my fiddling, and battery charging, I got a nice 'crackle' from the sped controller box, as I'm hoping it the was the electronics firing up!

    VroomVroom; I have some magnets around So are you saying that if I 'wave' a magnet around the Hall Sensor it will 'mimic' the voltages that the speed sensor is looking for...?

    The twist grip hall effect area, mouldings is damaged anyway. I don't mind a 'chewing gum and a toothpick' fix to see if it is that, but it will need replacing anyway!
    Maybe I'm better off as a process of elimination to just get a 'suitable' part off eBay?

    All good fun guys
    GT250.
    Last edited by GT250; 15-06-20 at 07:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GT250 View Post
    I must say that in all my fiddling, and battery charging, I got a nice 'crackle' from the sped controller box, as I'm hoping it the was the electronics firing up!

    All good fun guys
    GT250.

    Ouch!
    You also mentioned earlier a smell coming from the controller.


    Before you order, some other tips to try:

    1- The two disconnected white wires(3) could be a learning/reset program, they should fit into each other. This is done before powering up. The wheel must be able to spin. So turn the bike upside down so you can crank the pedals with your hand. It should start up even without pedal assist pressure. Check if there is even wiring that goes to the pedals and that it is not damaged.
    Usually the motor will start up once the wheel is spinning >5km/h. The white programming wires can do different things but usually the direction of rotation. I have in the past got a stuck controller working that way. If it rotates wrong, disconnect while running, remove the power source(you need to pull the main battery wires. Wait a bit and plug the white wires and power on again and it should run the opposite direction, remove the plug, power down. should stay that way if not repeat until you get it right.

    2- Next to the white wires is a fat plug with 5 wires. That is the hall sensor feedback from the hub motor. Normally brushless motors will still run even if you disconnect it, try it. However in this case it is this feedback from the hub sensors that maybe required for the speed controller to send power to the motor coils, so check if there is any breakage in the wiring there. The red and black wires should read 5V.

    3- Locate the throttle control voltage. I would have sworn it was on that small 3 pole RGB plug. It is obvious somebody messed with the bike before you got it so anything is possible.
    Measure again if the red wire has 5V against the black wire. If not look for another 3 pole plug. You gotta find the 5V somewhere coming from the controller otherwise it is toast.
    You need to find a 3 pole plug with +5V and ground and the centre wire should be 0 or around 1V. That is where you can simulate the throttle with an external power source, say +3V (two AA batteries), use 1kΩ in series (for safety) on green, negative on black and the wheel should spin after you cranked it.

    4- If that all fails then it might be time to decide for something like this:


    But before that try to take the controller apart.
    May the crackle be shoddy soldering ...and the be with you
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 15-06-20 at 09:42 PM.
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    I found this image on ebay , looks like there some anti theft features to work through. and it shows some sort of electric lock ?


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    Quote Originally Posted by VroomVroom View Post
    I found this image on ebay , looks like there some anti theft features to work through. and it shows some sort of electric lock ?

    Goodgrief...(twice)...once because that's so much mucking about for an electric pushbike, I was half expecting to see an OBD port ; and again because of the price - talk about cheap as chips! I kind of get the mental picture of what's 'crackling' inside the original unit now...cheap electronics.

    At that price, I'd be buying a new unit (and perhaps use that to debug the original).

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    Quote Originally Posted by VroomVroom View Post
    I found this image on ebay , looks like there some anti theft features to work through. and it shows some sort of electric lock ?

    Generally you just leave the antitheft connectors unplugged and the controller works. All the ones I used did.
    The electric lock is the 'ignition' switch that connects to 36V to switch it on using low current. If you had to disconnect the main battery power you would need a big clumpy switch which would not be user friendly.

    That image also confirms that the 3 pole plug with red green and black wires is the throttle control. You must focus on that. I simply connected the HPWM out from a PIC micro that generate a voltage 0.8V-4.4V directly(via a failsafe relay) to the green wire for my electric tractor(it is remote controllable) but you can just connect 3V with batteries to test it. That is about 2/3 throttle.

    There really is some standard there, so it is not that complicated at all. I used 2 different types of speed controllers(6 all up) in my electric tractor and they almost look the same, red plug for antitheft, etc. Only difference are the self learning(programming) wires, mine are black but the same mating single pole connectors.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 16-06-20 at 11:44 AM.
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    Hi all,

    I haven't had a chance to work on the bike - our work is still 'getting sorted out'. But at least I was employed full time through out this virus thing.

    Uncle fester: Thank you for your input and I will be going through the motions of what you suggested later in the week.

    That option 4 - included a controller and a display.
    On this bike the grip (as it is), I'd have to fiddle around finding a proper full size grip.

    However, the original sales people have found a OEM part. For $60.

    Electric Bike Display and Ignition
    P-TRNDSP-FC2
    Suitable for:
    TRNEBKNSHBFC2






    I have yet to open the bike up to check if the connections as shown in the OEM will simply plug in!


    As for the Speed Controller: And depending on physical size.
    If I need to replace it, what are your views on fitting a larger wattage (amperage), controller?
    I have read that the 'common' 250W hub brushless motors (I don't know if this is brushless), can handle 500W all the time or even 1000W for short periods of time.
    I think the original is 12A?

    The bike is never going to be used in massive uphill climbs or in races... Just the odd Saturday of flat trips that maybe last for 30kms. but I like the idea of 'Modding it' a bit - can't have a standard Volt! - I want a sleeper, lol!

    And also, I have to consider that the connections may differ..
    But if I need a new controller, I will have to cross that bridge anyway

    As for controller wirings, I found this; And what a plethora of choices..!



    Uncle Fester,
    I'll go through what you suggest on the weekend. Things are difficult for me to do physically (time wise), but my job does allow me to read up on things. That's why I have lots of questions...

    I really appreciate everyone's input people

    GT250.

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    You can see in in the picture of your post #9 three fat wires yellow green blue connected with the green insulation to the same colour thinner wiring going the to motor that it is indeed brushless 3 phase.

    If the controller truly has 12A (as shown in the picture) that is already roughly 450W. So it is not limiting the power to the motor. Therefore a higher rated controller will make no difference. The motor is rated for 200/250W and will only consume that based on it's coils. The only way for more power here would be higher voltage.
    That hub also looks too small to be capable of more and would not be able to dissipate the extra heat if you would run it at 48V, not worth the risk and effort.


    I have an iMortor wheel on one of my bikes. That hub has almost the diameter as the whole wheel on your bike yet it is running only 200W. That is a motor that could be modded with a different controller and more powerful batteries for 500W and more but all the gunk is built inside the wheel including the battery, so a major awkward rebuild. Not interesting for me, when you can get 1000W rated hubs relatively cheap but they won't fit on the small wheels of your folding bike either.
    Also too many cops around for these kind of experiments that you see on youtube. I have seen one doing wheel spin with an iMortor mod. It would literally rip out of the fork of my little pushbike.
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