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Thread: Bedford 466 diesel engine in a...

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    Default Bedford 466 diesel engine in a...

    I pick up some jobs, just for the sheer challenge I think...either that, or I'm some sort of sick puppy masochist =) My phone tones off twice this morning, first msg reads 'get out of bed ya lazy sod' ...2nd msg reads 'can you make this fit please?'...



    As I know the guy, at first I'm thinking he's taking the piss outta me, so I sent him back a smartarse reply of 'I'd cast you another flywheel but haven't finished making my foundry yet'...3rd msg comes back 'nah, I'm serious, here's the other end'



    I meet up with the guy on the road an hour later, to get the blow-by-blow of what's transpired, because this Beddy 466 engine isn't in a bus or TK truck, this engine -used- to be in a bus, but has been transmogrified into the power unit for a drilling rig;



    I've to go out to the site later to have a good look & measure myself ~ the entire contraption is the epitome of mechanical improvisation, I'll take my Sony cam with me to grab some historical imagery =) Btw for those screaming jimmy fans, the compressor on the back of the Acco has a 671 as the PU ...it's an interesting noise when everything's at full song.

    As the story goes, the thing lunches on a transfer shaft bearing mid-job, and onsite dismantle proceeds on a Friday, so this thing's down for the weekend. Someone else not me, grabs the initiative to service the contraption while it's down...just simple stuff like greasing bearings, tightening bolts and fittings, fixing a couple of fuel/oil leaks on the 466... and getting rid of the half a dozen bird's nests worth of grass and leaves in the air-cleaner, as so told to me. The 466 lasted another 2hours or something before lunching on what sounds like a rod bearing, and so it's down again ; I remember to tell someone this is all -their- fault, for cleaning out the air-filter, and that someone grimaces & nods their head, saying 'yep, you're probably right'.

    We both knew the engine was done anyhow, blowby inside it is horrendous, swallows half a can of ether to get it started, doesn't really idle as such due to it direct refeeding crankcase pressure/fumes thru a 1" hose to intake manifold...is slows down instead to a sort of fast idle, I'm actually amazed the engine runs at all. So the search is on for a 2ndhand motor, and once found someone else other than me and someone I trust, proceeded to fit the engine, without noticing the crankshaft flange differed from the bus version of the same engine - they came in 5 or so different configurations for industrial/marine and genset/pump use, and I think the replacement engine is one of these.

    To be continued...

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    My Uncle in Casino has a Dodge At4/ D5n in the shed that's been sitting there since 1980. Has a little rust in the drives side door but other than that.... real good nick.
    I asked him about it a couple of years ago when I was up there and the next thing it was when are you taking it home? It has a slant 6 in it but I'd like to put in a Diesel. I was thinking of a 6V71T but I think that will be too big and heavy and I'll have to go down to a 6v53. T if I could find one. I'd want to do long trips with the thing so it would need to have some reasonable grunt.
    The other alternative would be a Cummins 12 valve but they aren't easy to get here and don't have the sound of a screaming Jimmy. Mate of Mine who has the motto "LS the world" said that's what I should put in it ( LS3) which would certainly throw the thing up the road alright. I showed him a vid of another dodge with a little 6V in it and he was amazed at the sound and said thats what you have to get!
    Why didn't I think of that? Have to have a diesel so I can run it on Veg oil as I have been doing with everything from stationary engines though my little BX Kubota tractor to a host of vehicles fo 20 years.

    Have to work out what sort of transmission I could put with the engine. Not worried auto or manual, might be able to get an Allison, have to look into that once I find a suitable Donk.
    I'd like a jimmy but I think weight might be an issue. A 6BT would have far more power, weigh a lot less but wouldn't have the same sound and I'd have to get the P pump Model. Least I'd have no trouble with an Allison behind that.

    My Uncle suggested a CAT when I was up there when we were sitting around before dinner. I was looking at engines on my laptop and I said what about a 3208? My aunt in the Kitchen wheeled around and said " a 3208?? You'd never fit that in there, you'd crush it if you did! My coach had a 3208 in it and it was a bugger of a thing to replace it was so big in that, you'd never get it in a little ute like the dodge!!"

    I just sat there and laughed and looked at my uncle. My aunt said whats so funny? I said I was just wondering how many women in the world would even know what a 3208 cat was let alone how big it was or had a coach with one in it? :0) She corrected me and said she had 2 Coaches with 3208's! My uncles parents owned a large bus company which he took over just after they were married and had been the family business till they sold it to retire. My aunt had been driving buses, coaches and Semis in harvest season since her '20s.

    I'd love to be able to get the old truck and do it up and having a big diesel in the thing would just make it so much more fun.



    I have come across the crankshaft issue before. Plenty of variations on small stationary engines as well.
    Mate last year Blew the engine in his tracked Ditch witch. He found a replacement but when we went to put it in, discovered the end of the crank was completely Different. Engine otherwise was identical. I pulled the engine down to replace the crank and discovered the rest of it wasn't so great so gave it a freshen up. Was a twin cylinder Wisconsin. Miraculously found some new standard pistons, some oversize rings and Std bearings. just sent the head out and had the valves and seats done and decked. Honed out the bores, put the file backs on the pistons and put in the bearings and the thing has been running better than I expected. He was lucky he somehow didn't stuff the crank but I also put an oil alert on the thing this time but I don't think he'll forget to check the oil on anything again.

    Look forward to seeing what happens with your transplant. Wouldn't have thought a drill rig would need anything as big as a 466.

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    The old 466 isn't all that strong, something around the 150hp mark ~ I think the Hino 'based upon' look-a-like is better all over, but even they're getting thin on the ground these days.

    Just the idea of putting 'something else' in there is a nightmare -- the entire unit is bespoke beyond any reasonable appreciation of the word ; you'll see when I get there and click the record button.~ the bus gearbox is still used, there's a 2nd truck gearbox in the middle. I think it's 3 car diffs doing various things, and there's a tractor gearbox mounted transversely up the front that I'm not yet entirely sure what it's doing, but you gotta marvel at the dedication of whoever cut the endplates for the box section..out of 3/4" steel plate...it's a beast. I'll have to ask the owner what it tips the scales at. Of course, you're not going to put a petrol engine in it ; it's already tried to burn itself down twice due to burning bearings and hydraulic/diesel oil finding ignition point ; putting petrol in the mix would be instant disaster..or insanity =)

    Another thing I like about these jobs, is the urgency, the need to get the machine running again. If I can't pool the repair together inside 24hours, it's considered a 'fail'. These are always ASAP Paying Jobs, and you charge in bespoke manner -- it's hard to get this sort of job done all in the one place, at your whim, at any cost these days. Some of you might be interested in this sort of stuff, this process of repair in quick as you can tempo ; it's never quite as easy is it seems a lot of the time.

    There's something weird about this situation I've yet to see for myself, but I've got the witness marks on the input shaft spigot & spigot bearing itself to see someone else other than me again, has possibly missed something else. As far as I can tell, the gearbox input shaft must not be penetrating far enough towards the crankshaft end/flange, to even fully engage the spigot bearing anyhow, and the milling in the crankshaft end doesn't make sense for the standard ZZ seal ball spigot bearing from the get go. I applied some google-foo and managed to find a grainy image of what would've been there for this large hole flywheel ;



    The way it looks, I'm starting to question the overall depth of the clutch/flywheel housing at the back of the engine - this won't be a problem, I just want to know 'the whole story'. Rope in my housemate, retired fitter&turner, and brief him on the job ; he's thumbs up, paying job, but doesn't have time to stuff around finding some suitable steel stock. Thus, get into the pile of steel in the machinery shed, disturb an eastern brown [note to self] and finally uncover an old hydraulic ram anchor pin, just the right stuff & diameter to work with. Think about the part itself ~ we'll aim for a .0015" interference fit pressed into the flywheel center, with the center milled out to a 1-for-1 sizing for the bearing itself, assemble with loctite...leave a ledge at the back of the hole, another on the face to ensure concentric mounting on crankend, should be good to go.

    Grab the pin, and head to my engineering buddy to give him the "this is what happened, here's the plan" briefing, and there was much laughter -- one story about this bedford engine, was it was seen running that hot (with a failed water pump impeller), the -sides- of the sump pan were smoking, you can only imagine how hot it was inside the crankcase! He takes hold of the pin, and hardness tests it and deems it good for purpose, and then asks "what did you want?" ...cut the weld to remove the end cap flange, then cut a 50mm long piece of the 70mm diameter steel pin, so it can be turned to size in a lathe. He grabs his milwaulkee battery powered angle grinder with thin cutting blade and has the flange off in no time....then he starts thinking about how to cut the pin ; you don't want to use abrasives as the heat will harden the steel, so he shrugs his shoulders and decides the milwaulkee handheld cold saw might have a go at it....and my brain's beyond skeptical about this, and I'm asking him.. seriously.. "You're not serious, are you?"...

    First cut is 20mm deep, then a 2nd cut to 40mm deep, 3rd to 60mm, spin the work, and a final 10mm parting cut, and you pick up the piece of steel that's barely warm. Then he does it again, and proclaims "There you go, too easy!"



    Goodgrief, charlie brown! With a battery powered tool?...that's frigging awesome. I mean, granted the blades are $130 a pop or something, but still...it ate through this stock like a hot knife through butter.

    Tomorrow, lathe time.
    Last edited by wotnot; 09-10-20 at 12:35 AM.

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    just a thought here , and i dont know if the driller's time or budget would allow it - But i used to manage a fire company and we did a lot of pump conversions of all sizes using brand new Bedford copycat engines made in India. These new / old repro engines were simple and reliable as , and no problem getting insurer's approval to run them as fire pumps. Try Ebay in India and see what crankshafts and bits are available maybe?

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    That thing sounds a real frankenstein with all those gear Boxes. The torque from so much down gearing must be incredible. Sound like you could do a conversion to a 10 Hp aircooled diesel like they do with the 4wd Vehicles that will still climb vertical rock faces. It's all about the gearing not the HP! :0) Be easier if you could just couple the engine and box with a PTO shaft but I surmise the need the clutch there? I would have thought this would have all been Hydraulic Driven but obviously a DIY job and an interesting one.
    I'm thinking of Building a little Dump Truck for around here. Got a Subaru Gearbox, diff, hubs shafts and pretty much all the rest of the running gear like subframes with brakes and steering put away for the Job. I have plenty of little Diesels up the back I can use. Really just a matter of Narrowing the sub frames and shafts, Building a chassis/ frame and The tipper section. Was thinking to use a electric outboard trim Hydraulic pump for that. With something like a 72 Tooth sprocket on the input shaft of the box and a 12 Tooth on the engine, Torque won't be a problem and I certainly don't need the thing to move Very fast.


    I had to cut up some heavy steel at my fathers place a month or so back. He was looking to hire an oxy as he hasn't needed one for years. I pointed out the expense of that just to cut some steel and suggested he wait till I bring up my plasma or 9" grinder. Always being impatient once a job has been decided on he elected just to hire the oxy. I noticed he had a stack of Cutting disks for his AEG 5" battery Grinder ( and about a dozen batteries) so I came up after lunch with him still inside and gave it a go. Suffice to say the things went through this this thick heavy steel like no tomorrow. I used the half a disk left that was on the grinder when I picked it up and about the same was left when I finished with the new one I put on. All done in 5-10 Min and I wasn't rushing.

    Time Dad came up I had it all Piled up in the tractor bucket ready to take to the scrap bin. Total cost, about $2 Bux. At first he asked what I cut it with even seeing the grinder lying there. Didn't think it was possible it would do it. I thought it would do it, I didn't think it would do it that easy and on about half a 5 Ah battery and one disk. I ended up bringing a lot of the steel home to weld up as a work Bench and a Frame for the wood fire Pizza oven I'm going to build. It's solid stuff and going by what I had to pay for the 4mm steel Flat I bought the other day and this is 5mm, it was worth brining back well and truly.

    Battery stuff has come a LONG way these days and the variety of tools you can get and what they will do is quite surprising.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VroomVroom View Post
    just a thought here , and i dont know if the driller's time or budget would allow it - But i used to manage a fire company and we did a lot of pump conversions of all sizes using brand new Bedford copycat engines made in India. These new / old repro engines were simple and reliable as , and no problem getting insurer's approval to run them as fire pumps. Try Ebay in India and see what crankshafts and bits are available maybe?
    Yeah, this discussion was tabled, but from a slightly different angle - time is the killer really. I had notioned when it shat the big-end bearing, that it might be worthwhile to lift the engine & drop the crankshaft out, just to check if we could skim the journals and go to the next undersize...parts being so cheap for these things, m'kay? End of the day though, someone managed to source the other 2ndhand engine, and that's that -- it's so much quicker to just swap mills.

    As said above, the thing was up and running again until this issue arose, but fact is it would still be running, had whoever on the tools noticed this mismash at the crank/flywheel and fixed it there and then. Had they spent an extra day attending to that, they could've avoided this 3-4days of downtime ; this is what happens when people rush at schedules, instead of scheduling required maintenance. You get that =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by VroomVroom View Post
    But i used to manage a fire company and we did a lot of pump conversions of all sizes using brand new Bedford copycat engines made in India.
    Haven't heard of those, very interesting. The chinese do a lot of inline diesel engines but I don't know what they are copys of.
    The ones I know from India are the lister/ petter copys. They are universally SHIT. I have one and it has all the Typical Indian Listeroid faults. Had about a cup of sand in the crankcase when I got it, some just loose and a lot of pockets of the stuff typically pained over. The lifters don't rotate as they should but the worst thing it the thing is so out of balance on the big flywheels it's like a god-damn Jackhammer. The flywheels are counterweighted so it's not as straightforward as just balancing them.

    They have to be removed, balanced to each other and then refitted and balanced to the engine. Many of them have the Gibb keys driven in with a sledge and getting them out is something that has caused owners around the world endless hours of frustration and stuffing around. I haven't been that game yet. I have tried balancing the thing for hours and the only thing I have achieved is to make it worse. Never been able to see any sort of recognisable improvement. I get disheartened with the thing and it sits a while then I get enthused and give it another go then I think Fk it I'll get something else then I look at it and see Vids of one running as a lister should ( often being an actual lister not a copy) and want to have another go. Been looking for a genuine Lister for years but mainly only find the little 3Hp or they are stupidly priced.

    There are a bunch of companies making parts for the things mainly and the " Manufacturers are more like parts assemblers. The quality of the things is universally terrible. The problems are endless. Barrels that aren't flat, cams that aren't straight, Flywheels with huge casting voids filled in with plastic bog..... The clever people look at them as kits and tear new engines down and spend a lot of time and money brining them back to spec with proper fit and tolerances.

    I have many times Pondered on forums how the Indians run and get any life out the things? They must be a major investment in the home market but if they are running them with sumps full of sand and the flywheels nearly shaking the things to death, how do they last any reasonable time?

    I wonder if the Bedford copys are any Better?
    The other thing the indians and Chinese do is Generator heads. The single phase ST types are extremely quality variable with a strong tendency to have a lot of problems particularly with out of balance and terrible bearings. The stc 3 Phase types are renowned to be miles better even coming out of the same factories. Buying any 2 bearing gen head here is near impossible I have found unless again you want to pay some stupid price for an Italian or Us made head.... If you can even find them under about 20 Kw.

    I wish the Chinese would do a listeroid. Their quality in small Diesels is far better. They do the Yanmar/ Kubota copys and I have read of very few problems with those. They tend to be pretty noisy though and no where near as quiet as the listers and certainly no where near as enjoyable to listen to. The Listers are Music, the rest you are just trying to keep the Irratation levels to a minimum.

    I'm looking for a Genuine lister and a Little 3 Cyl Kubota. See which one comes up first.

    Do you have any links to the Bedford Copys?

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    those drillers would save a fortune in diesel by repowering with a modernish jap turbo engine. hino j08 or similar....

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post

    Do you have any links to the Bedford Copys?
    no , i'm not in the game any longer. They were sold as Crossley pumps , based in Melbourne.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoe View Post
    those drillers would save a fortune in diesel by repowering with a modernish jap turbo engine. hino j08 or similar....
    You'd be right, but these old fogies get all squeamish & uppity at the mere thought of swapping out something that [quote] "has worked just fine for decades", and replacing it with anything that isn't the same ~ it's a familiarity thing =)
    Besides, the screaming 671 pushing air probably erodes the fuel consumption equation more than the old beddy..hehe.


    I just had to include this, because the venerable lister got mentioned =)




    The piece is being turned at the now while I'm typing this ~ hopefully it turns up back here in the next couple of hours, then it's off for a little drivies with the flywheel to another mate's shed to avail myself of his hydraulic press. After that, odds are I'm going to end up on site late this afternoon to help/verify assembly, which will end up as a bright light in the middle of the paddock late at night because something else will get noticed in process, and it'll be easier to fix that, now, rather than put it all back together like everyone except me is expecting to happen in the coming hours ; it's not that I'm a pessimist or trying to put the mockers on things, it's more a case of me having done a brief inspection, found a few things really needing attention, and best guess is if I look further I'm going to find lots of other uglies.

    As I'm typing this, my gut feeling is the increased power/torque from the fresher engine, is going to destroy something in the drive-train somewhere, that's worn beyond limit and only holding on just because the old motor has been down on power/dying for the last decade whatever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post

    I just had to include this, because the venerable lister got mentioned =)
    That kid has been around waaay too many Listers in his short time.
    The sound is spot on.

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    Drillers over here haven't used a gm for 20 years, too noisy and too thirsty....

    Sent from my ELS-NX9 using Tapatalk

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    Guess what broke next? If you know your Eaton 542SMOT gearbags, it's not a hard guess ;



    More pics later, after I recover somewhat =)

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    The 671 in the air compressor ~ when this gets started, it goes straight to governed revs : mate & I just look at each other with grimaced faces every time it's run up...same thought in our heads 'oh those poor crankshaft bearings'







    The replacement beddy 466 ; this was a pita apparently - they had to use the injector pump off the old engine, because the one on the replacement was stuffed







    Modded flywheel with spigot bearing adapter/carrier going in - the mod itself is fine, but working on this thing is absolutely horrid ; everything's in your way, you can't sit anywhere, there's nowhere you get your legs out of the way...you hurt afterwards
















    Note the new hydraulic pump fitted to the PTO ~ this always worried us, just because it was there ; didn't look the part, something had gone on here. It later helped us explain what happened next.



    Nice exhaust stack, what? =) Mate's just checking the injector pump, he hit the button and the old girl fires straight up - no knocks, no rattles, no blue smoke, good oil pressure ; replacement motor seems to be in really really good nick (I think the guy paid $1800 for it). The gearbox on the back of the beddy was in neutral, so we're effectively only charging the hydraulic circuit & checking for leaks. It's idling away happily for maybe 2minutes, and all of a sudden this loud knock...more like bang-bang-bang-bang starts out of nowhere, and this is a BIG BAD noise and we look at each other in dispair as it's shutting down - WTF is that? We roll it over with me playing ears, and I just shake my head..."it's in the bloody gearbox"...and much cursing was heard.

    Everyone' who's booked this rig for a bore 'coz it hasn't rained probably heard us, and we have to pull the box again...ffs. We decide to leave bellhousing/clutch in, and just take the box.

    Remove top cover/selector assembly, somewhat hopeful we'll see it there (rig uses 3rd gear only)




    Nada, but we've figured out by now it's not in the motive gear-train - so it must be the bottom idler shaft or such, so it's out with the gearset & transfer shaft, and we start finding metal



    See that shiny piece off to the left, inlin with the elbow of the allen key?...that was jammed between 2 teeth in the lower idler gear ; it was the noise



    I'm getting all the metal together and sifting though it, and find a crushed ball-bearing ....of the size that -doesn't- get used in the gearbox (it's mostly all needle-rollers inside), and it dawns on us -- the PTO that failed previously. Whoever did that job, didn't check or see or care that the failed PTO box had shat a ball-bearing (older PTOs used normal ball-bearings, they went to tapered roller type because of exactly this =) When the old engine&box was lifted out of the rig, it was gearbox tail down, and this metal ended up just in the spot where it could get kicked up into the idler gear.

    Once again, we're fixing someone else's fukups.....sigh... more later

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    That looks like a LOT of hard work! Twice over in some parts!

    Is the air intake a a Hackbricated Muffler with the air filters grafted on the ends or is that an OEM piece?
    I have read before about Diesels using Mufflers on the intake to shut them up. Several of the small engines I have make much more racket from the intake than the exhaust so I can see why it would be a good soloution. If that's a DIY bit, Loos pretty creative in the way they set it up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by george65 View Post
    That looks like a LOT of hard work! Twice over in some parts!

    Is the air intake a a Hackbricated Muffler with the air filters grafted on the ends or is that an OEM piece?
    I have read before about Diesels using Mufflers on the intake to shut them up. Several of the small engines I have make much more racket from the intake than the exhaust so I can see why it would be a good soloution. If that's a DIY bit, Loos pretty creative in the way they set it up.
    It -is- hard work, you need the 'right' mindset...ie; "could be worse", whilst reminiscing of the worst possible jobs one had ever had to tangle with over decades ; like thinking of a TK Bedford and having to remove/replace cab - it could be a lot worse than it is!

    Yep, that's what it seems like ~ best we understand of it, they'd get the bare chassis/engine assembly, and it was pretty much up to the coach builders to make things fit/work (donor engine is out of a bus) ; you could lift a floor cover/hatch in the bus, and get easy access to the filters for service. Not entirely sure they were thinking of noise mitigation doing that, more an ease of maintenance thing.

    Now some more images ~ 'every picture tells a story' so to speak

    Left rear quarter is where most of the levers & spool valves live - note the rope ; it's connected to something critical, but I forget what (I think it's on a latch pawl)







    But wait!...there's more...


























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    That thing looks like it's been added onto.

    And added onto


    And added onto and added onto and..... I can well see what you say, it could be worse. Some of that looks completely inaccessible and by by time you got to it, wouldn't be worth putting back together.
    How many Diffs in that thing?
    Obviously unlike cranes, these things don't have to have a 5 yearly or so many hours overhaul and certification.

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    I think there's 4 diffs & 5 gearboxes in total (there's a diff under the back of the truck bed I've not snapshot yet) ~ rule of thumb ; need a right-angle box : use a diff -- need a reduction - use a gear box. This thing has truly evolved over the decades, and repairs have proceeded under the premise of "if that broke, put a bigger one in", so the 4 diffs have been replaced with something else as they've failed, because you're correct -- it's not worth putting back together, often because it's nigh on impossible...ie; one of the diffs that failed once was out of an old Vauxhall, and they couldn't find another, so a Ford Fairlane diff was adapted to fit. It really is a testament to 'bush mechanics'














    The tractor gearbox is from a Wallis 20-30, the small gearbox high up is from a Ford Prefect....this is recycling at it's best =)

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    he tractor gearbox is from a Wallis 20-30, the small gearbox high up is from a Ford Prefect....this is recycling at it's best =)
    That makes the Wallis Gearbox at least 90 Yo and the prefect is still a spring Chicken at only 60 Yo. When was this beast Built? Probably no one who built it still alive to remember!
    This thing is probably worth more as collector parts than it's replacement cost as a drill Rig. I thought one of those Diffs looked big, Probably a 9". More value in parts there.

    There must be a lot of " Ballast" being carried around on the chassis. I take it weight is good for a drill rig.

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    I totally understand why someone would keep that machine going - replacement cost of same beast now would be a couple of million i reckon

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