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Thread: Bottled gas cooktops, etc., and carbon monoxide poisoning

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    Default Bottled gas cooktops, etc., and carbon monoxide poisoning

    I have just bought a bottled gas camping stove. The "User Manual" states that it is not to be used in an enclosed space specifically mentioning boats, caravans and tents because of the risk of carbon monoxide poisoning.

    Over the years we have used bottled gas cooktops, had a bottled gas two burner in a camper van and had a flue-less heater in the lounge and I am still here to type this.

    What is so different about the gas camping stove?
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    Only the appliance manufacturer could give you a definitive answer how their product differs in that respect, however, I suspect it's likely just to cover themselves if there's a claim made due to 'improper' use, contrary to their warning.

    Any gas appliance, natural or LPG has the potential to cause carbon monoxide poisoning and obviously, the more-confined space such appliances are used in, the greater the risk.

    There's likely no greater risk with you using that appliance as you have done with others, but by using it against the manufacturer's advice, you would do so at your own risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    What is so different about the gas camping stove?
    It's made in an era where idiots can put the blame on others instead of being held accountable for their own personal responsibility.

    In Bygone days people have more common knowledge and Common sense. These days most people are inept morons when it comes to practicality. Once upon a time people who went camping had a strong amount of self sufficiency and independence. Now people who go camping take a generator with them and the ones they take get better reviews if they don't have to deal with the incredibly Burdensome and overbearingly complex task of Mixing a bit of oil in the fuel like it's on a difficulty level of a DIY Kidney transplant .

    I remember as a kid going away in the caravan with my grandparents. The stove was not allowed to be lit unless a window or better still the top hatch was open. better preferred unless it was really cold at night was the door. Now you have to point these things out to people because we live in such a mollycoddled world, people can use a phone for all manner of things it wasn't designed for and hack computer games but can't light a camp fire.
    They don't even have gas connections you need a spanner for these days. I suspect too many people don't own one. They are all these tool less quick thread and connect things.

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    There will be a warning on bottled water soon; if you drink too much you can die.

    There definitely should be a warning on the home brew beer I'm consuming. lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    There will be a warning on bottled water soon; if you drink too much you can die.
    Or something like " Do not pour into electrical equipment".

    Every Fuel container I have seen has something akin to "Keep away from naked flames and matches" on it.
    When you have to tell people that.....
    Then again, people still open radiator caps on overheating engines and are surprised when a volcano erupts and burns them.

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    In Victoria the Flue_less Gas heaters to heat up your room are banned.. Only in Vic & Tas from my understanding. Other states it's fine to have one installed.

    Energy Safe Victoria says, The level of combustion gases that may exceed safe levels. Carbon monoxide CO poisoning is a big killer.

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    On decent size boats they have monitors for carbon monoxide and Petrol/ Diesel Fumes.
    The dangers of Co and fuel vapor explosions have long been well known. I believe a LOT of homes in the US also have Gas monitors for different things.

    I remember as a kid at school, everyone Piling into classes to sit as close as Possible to the unflued gas heaters.... which were found to be all sorts of wrong and subsequently removed years ago.
    Might be the reason I struggled to stay awake in these classes other than so much of what we were taught was irrelevant, useless, boring shit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    What is so different about the gas camping stove?
    I was hoping that I might get a discussion on the design, combustion characteristics, whatever of kitchen gas cooktop burners (that have no warnings whatsoever) and camping gas stove burners that have a raft of warnings.
    If Australia is a democracy why, then, is voting compulsory?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guiseppe View Post
    I was hoping that I might get a discussion on the design, combustion characteristics, whatever of kitchen gas cooktop burners (that have no warnings whatsoever) and camping gas stove burners that have a raft of warnings.
    A kitchen is a large enough and ventilated enough area for a stove not to be able to produce a significant amount of Co to matter.
    Places a camping stove might be used are generally smaller like a tent, boat or caravan and therefore a lot easier for the emissions to become significant when the enclosure they are operating in is closed up especially as they often are in cold weather.

    I don't believe there is any real difference in design or combustion. Never seen any gas stove that operates any different to any other. They all fire the gas through an injector or Jet that mixes with ambient air and combusts through a series of openings in the burner proper. Played with 400Kw Pool heaters and they work exactly the same way.
    The only difference they could have would be in the air to fuel ratio and I think that's a pretty limited margin to keep different emissions down.

    I had a few Kero stoves, lanterns and Blow lamps. They were similar. Fuel passed though a gas generator which just phase changed the Kero from a Liquid to a gas then after that through a jet, into a mixer then combusted with the burner.

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    I remember when those little butane can cooktops were recalled , because too many users where putting large frypans on them , and the reflected heat would cause the can to explode !!
    maybe in similar circumstances you may get incomplete combustion , leading to monoxide poisoning?

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    How do diesel heaters work in caravans compared to gas?
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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    How do diesel heaters work in caravans compared to gas?
    The diesel heaters have a heat exchanger. The combustion gasses are vented out from the burner in a separate small exhaust Pipe and the hot air that is diverted to the space to be heated is fresh air that is drawn in by a fan and blown across the other side of the heat exchanger. The combustion chamber is inside the HE and heats it and the outside of the HE is where the air to be heated is passed across. They are both finned internally and externally for efficiency. The HE itself is a large aluminium extrusion with the inlet for combustion air, the exhaust and the port for the Glowplug and fuel inlet machined in.

    The combustion exhaust and the heated air output are total isolated and separate so as to prevent any exhaust/ combustion gasses entering the space to be heated.

    In actual operation, The diesel heaters have a controller which activates a glow plug. Diesel is dripped onto the GP which ignites and starts the combustion. when the HE is up to heat a fan licks in and blows air across the HE and through a duct into the space to be heated. The output is regulated by the combustion fan, fuel flow and the speed of the HE fan.
    The controllers are small but quite sophisticated and fuel mixtures, GP heat time, run down time and other things can be set by the user if desired or the things can be run from the factory settings.

    The heaters are quite efficient. The burn about 6Kw worth of fuel for a 5kw output which isn't bad at all. There will always be some heat loss on a ducted/ HE system. Even residential gas heaters have some exhaust heat loss. There are now some exhaust water heat exchangers so the waste heat can be utilised as well. !KW is not much for water heating but if it were used to stop a tank freezing or on a small 10-20L tank, it may be ok depending on run time. There are also Diesel water heaters available now. They work with the same sort of burner only circulate water around the HE rather than air.

    The thing with the diesel heaters is they can be cheaper to run than bottled gas heaters and also in motor homes, they can run from the vehicles fuel supply rather than having to carry an extra gas bottle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VroomVroom View Post
    I remember when those little butane can cooktops were recalled , because too many users where putting large frypans on them , and the reflected heat would cause the can to explode !!
    That would not be Fun! Especially in an enclosed space. Wonder if the exploded as In Boom! or if they Just Vented? Havent noticed anything on them to suggest they would vent.

    We bought one of those last year when we had the kitchen Renovated. $20 From big W. Was a great little stove. I took some of the old Kitchen Cupboards and built a little Kitchen in the laundry. Got some of the floor tiles and put them under the stove and beside and behind it. We cooked on that thing most Nights and went through one little canister of gas a week. Expected to go through a lot more so bought a bulk box of the things which worked out at under $2 ea.

    The thing was plenty hot, mrs said it was better than the old electric stove, and it just worked well and well beyond expectations. we used the thing for the better part of 3 Months as the renovation dragged right out and enjoyed using the thing. Mrs went and bought another one to put away in case they became unavailable. We were going to take it on Picnics etc but due to chinahh pox and not going anywhere, haven't used either of them since.

    We have been to a few places with pathetic electric BBQ's in the parks that literally take an hour to cook anything so we thought one of these with a frypan would be a great alternative. Can also take the coffee machine for some real coffee.

    I'd like to go camping again, haven't been in 20 years. I'm sure after one night though I'd remember why that was.
    Of course when I went camping it was real camping not the bullshit they go on with now taking generators and fridges and every other convenience from home.
    We would take was a gas or kero stove if we were staying in a caravan park where they wouldn't allow open fires. Other thing I took was a used car battery. I have a wiring loom I had made for the tent so we had plenty of light and would use that at night and Run the car a bit in the morning to make sure the battery was charged up again. No LED in those days nor solar panels.

    We were never uncomfortable, just enjoyed getting back to basics without all the mod Cons.

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