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Thread: Is Formula One dead or dying

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    Default Is Formula One dead or dying

    Living in Melbourne you have plenty of time on your hands. Just watched a Formula E race and it was like watching a V8 race, action through out
    When watching F1 the out come is pretty predictable and the race becomes a parade or procession, read boring
    With Honda pulling the pin on F1 to concentrate on FE is this the death Knell of that type of racing
    The future is electric, my opinion, when an affordable electric vehicle with a 1000km range becomes available, and from my reading they say it exists in trial version, the end is imminent?
    ie drive from Melbourne suburbia to Sydney suburbia, Brisvagas to Sydney or vice versa with out charging
    The other alternative is Vic high country and back with out charging
    Opinions please AS MOST MEMBERS ARE MORE AWARE THAN ME!
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    1000km range will be good, then all we need is fast charging! It would be useless if you could drive to your destination, then have to park for two days, just to get enough kick to get home. (2 days is being facetious for those pedants out there )
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    There is a thread here about F1 and I have posted that there is still some action ...occasionally... when you just ignore the first two who usually cross the line.
    I understand what you mean but Honda pulling out certainly does not mean the death Knell, they were hardly in it.

    I haven't followed Formula E but it is my understanding that an electric motor always performs the same at given specs. Maybe differences are found in the battery/battery management systems but compared to managing an ICE assisted with an electric system in F1, the differences would be marginal. Plus there is the additional skill of the driver being responsible for energy harvesting and releasing extra power bursts with the F1 hybrid system that you don't have with pure EV.

    Maybe if every F1 car would get the same specified Mercedes engine to equalise performance, the differences would lie more in driver skills.

    As for the second part of the OP, the EV future is already there in some places. 50% of Norwegians buy now EVs or PHEVs for example and get around fine.
    All important European manufacturers are making them.
    And they don't really need to have 1000km range to be useful. After that 1000km you still need to wait for the charge if you wanted to drive 1200km in one go or accidentally missed the only charge station between Sydney and Brissy.

    The EV future is just not here in Australia and will not be until all manufacturers stop making vehicles that only use an ICE.
    While I am sure for most people even in Australia, 300-400km range is more than ample. We seem to only look at the outback or professional drivers when we bag the much hated EVs in this country.
    And then show me an average Aussie family household that has only one car? I think I am the only one in our street.

    I technically have an EV that has only a little over 50km range and I get along with that perfectly fine as my daily drive is 38km.
    If I would need to take a drive down to Sydney I will still continue to take the train or the plane as I have done so in the past 20 years despite owning a diesel SUV before.
    That said there are very good EV hybrids called PHEV which is an EV with an ICE. I now have one and the ICE kicks in 2-3 times a year when I need to drive longer than 50 km.

    I only spoke yesterday to somebody from Germany and he told me that their government subsidises the purchase of an EV with 6000 Euro(almost Au$10,000).
    Here we have to pay import and luxury taxes on top of the crappy exchange rate and for those daring few who committed the crime of purchasing one will soon be hammered with an EV tax.
    EVs are not wanted and have no future here.
    This era of thoughtless consumption must end so we can encourage a world of creative geniuses rather than consumer idiots.


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    F1 is dead ~ they're just flogging a dead horse ; MotoGP is dead, they just have less horse to flog...and for mine, motor racing is dead in this country...unless you're into racing imports. 'Electric' racing is boring as well if you ask me.

    A lot depends on what one considers to be 'racing' ~ as far as top tier goes, there's more racing in F3 than F1, likewise is the case for motogp where all the racing is in moto3...and Formula-E, to me, is boring, because of the visceral lack of engine sound.

    Nobody needs 1000klm of range to get along with an electric car, especially when one lives/works in a city or large town center. I look at my own situation living rural -- 100klms to nearest city, 20klms to nearest town, 75klms to family ..how much range to I need?

    Doesn't matter ....better question: can I afford to buy an electric car? Pfffft!....no way, not even close, and why would I anyway? I can buy a used internal combustion powered bike/car much cheaper, and buy something 2 or 3 times more fuel efficient than what I drive now in that same process, but I don't because what I have works fine.

    The way I see it, the road to widespread adoption of electric vehicles, means taxing the buggery out of the total cost of ownership related to having/using an internal combustion engine powered vehicle 'for domestic use'.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    The way I see it, the road to widespread adoption of electric vehicles, means taxing the buggery out of the total cost of ownership related to having/using an internal combustion engine powered vehicle 'for domestic use'.
    That make no sense as it is already done.
    As I said the cost for EVs is prohibitive here due to import charges and exchange rate. Elsewhere they are made locally and also subsidised so the initial higher cost doesn't hurt that much.
    I remember days when AU$1 was near US$1. If that ever happens again MAYBE they might find some adoption here.
    Technically EVs should be much cheaper to produce then ICE vehicles, especially when all the new battery giga factories go online.
    Cheaper battery metals are/will be in use with less or no Cobalt and a lot of cheap nickel. The use of LiFePO4 in large vehicles is also a breakthrough.
    Tesla(Musk) is making their battery chemistry open source for all to copy.
    This era of thoughtless consumption must end so we can encourage a world of creative geniuses rather than consumer idiots.


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    I watched Bathurst today as I have every year I can remember going back to a kid younger than 10 years old.

    That's about as dead as Holden is now and has been for a while too. How the Fk can you call it racing when they are all the same car bar a different engine and body shape that's Modified to fit the regulation floorpan and suspension they all use? What a fking joke. Holden are out now and I wonder who will be in Next year? I'm not up on it now at all, only race I watched ( some of) since last year. Far as I know nissan gave it the flick as did toymotor so who IS going to run it? I don't think it's got a lot of sales value now. t

    The old thing of win on Sunday sell on Monday is long gone. My father was the GM of a Holden dealership back in the Torana Days and he said it was more than just a phrase. These days the young petrol heads are more into Drifting and drags than circuit racing. The older ones are buying old cars not the new crap because they can't even buy an Aussie V8 and they aren't into turbos.
    They tried the international thing with Group C decades ago and that was a dead loss. They lambasted the petrol heads only wanting V8's but soon discovered that's where the fan base was. They are going away from that again so are they expecting a different result?

    Holden dying is symptomatic of Australian Culture and way of life dying. Touring car racing, Bathurst etc will be the same. It will die in the arse in a few years as well because they have lost touch with the culture and identity of the nation and the fan base. Too bloody busy trying to be all things to all people and concentrating on advertising and PC agendas so everyone gets to win and those with the edge are handicapped. Rather see real racing and the ones I go for loose all year than this BS we have now which isn't racing, it's a moving adversarial and a pretty poor one at that.

    As for electrics... That pipe dream has been shoved back another 5-10 years if not more thanks to events of 2020.

    So many out of work, debt all around, people working from home that will continue to be and o0ther factors do not bode well for premium priced new Technology that people will see as having a risk factor attached to it anyway. I thught the roll out predictions were laughably optimistic before, they are going to have to rest them completely now or be totaly laughed at. Still, they are the love child of the green, lefties so the MSM will probably rave on ad nauseam about them anbd the car manufacturers will try to convince everyone in the world to buy one to keep up with the Joneses but I think the average Smith isn't going to give a rats or be in a position to spend more than they need to anyway.

    I think they will for the most part lose their big headline of cheaper to run. They never really were in reality which was not what the hype and the faibois said but I think fuel will plateu for a while yet and may go down some more so that will not favour the EV hype.

    Not sure about needing a 1000Km range. Not many cars have that now although more do. I would say 5-600 would be mainly sufficent with a couple of clauses.
    !. there will need to be an ability to charge to full range in under an hour and everywhere. Even now, see how long it takes you to drvie even a Tesla Syd to Brisbane. It's a lot longer than an IC. Don't even thing about going inland say syd to Adelaide.

    2. I think there will need to be a 1000KM option not so much for distance outright but for towing. Put a mid size van behind a tesla now and you go from around a 400Km range to around 150-180. That is what will kill a lot of people in the EV market. 3-400 KM towing 1.5 ton will be a minimum and again, sub 1 hr full recharge.

    Hypothetical anyway in my book. The grids in many countries, Aus, Canada and US being some just won't handle the load no matter what the supporters say. anyone that has an interest in grids and RE etc knows that. The ignorant on the EV bandwagon talk crap about charging from home from solar and haven't even got a clue the difference between a Kw and a Kwh hour or what they generate or what an ev takes. So many grids can't support people turning on an extra 3 Kw for an AC on a hot day, How they going to handle hundreds of people wanting to pull down 100Kw with an EV.

    Night time Off peak is already a misnomer. Night is the PEAK for power stations that we still have left. Solar takes the load off during the day, the power stations are more loaded at night than they are the day. Look up the AEMO site and see. It's nothing new.

    I can't see Ev's being significant. IE >25% of the on road fleet for another 20 years and certainly nothing like the prediction.

    Also still with my bet Tesla will be gone in 5 years with 3 to run. Yes, I know what they are doing with new factories etc but the longer they go the harder things will get. They coulldn't make real profit without cooking the books when they had the market to themselves. With everything coming out now which is cheaper and often more capeable.... The peak and downhill run is near. I will admit, the world debt thanks to China Pox won't help them and will help my prediction but it's another factor for them to deal with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    and for those daring few who committed the crime of purchasing one will soon be hammered with an EV tax.
    Oh No!

    You mean the Virtue Signalling greenwashed lefties will have to pay their fair share for using the roads like everyone else!
    Unbelievable!What's even more, they won't be able to bludge free power for recharging at all these places they can now. That was just to " Stimulate" the market and get the suckers hooked in. Even the NRMA has said it's going to start charging money not just vehicles at it's previously free recharge stations and all the other companies didn't invest in them to get no return either. People that thought they were going to get free power forever were stupidly naieve.


    EVs are not wanted and have no future here.
    You said it!

    But look on the bright side, it's something else you can blame Trump for and have a whinge about.

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    Come on you old farts, get with the times, electric is the future
    The answer will be a per kilometer tax, electric car 23 moving parts, ice 2341 moving parts, and they reckon the brakes don't even wear out because they are hardly used
    You all must have seen the two photos of a New York city street at the turn of the century, approx 100 horse drawn vehicles, 1 car, then a decade later 100 cars and trucks and 1 horse drawn vehicle
    They are coming to a town near you
    Last edited by allover; 19-10-20 at 08:49 AM.
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    My opinion, 1000km range will over come the physiological barrier of owning a ev, forget to charge it at night no problems the next day. Tesla future is not the vehicles but the battery technology, they have commenced to make a profit. When battery density hits 400Wh, you will be sitting in a seat of an electric powered flying machine
    Every young person will be driving a electrical vehicle that costs the same as a Hyundai Tuscon that can out perform a top line Porsche, better acceleration, lower center of gravity for road holding and possibly matching top end speed (dependent on distance and battery life)
    People say Tesla wont be around in 5 years, I say a lot of vehicle manufacturers wont be around in 5 years in there present form,the only thing stopping that at the moment is battery cost and production, remember Morse's Law, only a matter of time
    As a side note, predictions are that as the uptake of electric vehicles, the proportional price of fuel will rise as less fuel being used, costs have to increase to cover costs diminished returns
    Last edited by allover; 19-10-20 at 09:40 AM.
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    This is not too unrealistic here ;


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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    They are coming to a town near you
    Yeah and they Might be in town a while as well waiting to Charge up if there are no fast chargers available or all the chargers are taken like on weekends and at holiday Time.

    May not be a bad thing for a lot of towns though and a great way to get people to spend money in the town. Smart towns may Cotton onto this and deliberately not put in any fast chargers. :0)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    This is not too unrealistic here ;

    Only way I see F1 dead is if Mercedes suddenly starts loosing races and pulls out, extremely unlikely.
    Their F1 dominance is very important for their brand.
    If Renault and Honda pulls out and Ferrari don't get their act together, it will be a Merc engine for all as I suggested above.

    Maybe in 5 years things might change.
    F1 speed is all about chassis design not just HP, that is why the V8s look so lame on the track in comparison to F1.
    Most important they must be light to be so agile.
    'Electric powered F1' could be eventually faster once they can make lighter batteries but they must also cover the F1 distances before they run empty.
    This era of thoughtless consumption must end so we can encourage a world of creative geniuses rather than consumer idiots.


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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    Come on you old farts, get with the times, electric is the future
    You must of missed the bit that I drive pure electric for about 99% of the time.

    I may get an issue with rusted/pitted brake rotors because of lack of using them.
    They already squeak awfully when I do use the friction brake.
    I harvest energy(brake) mainly with the paddles on the steering wheel. Tesla doesn't have that feature, you can only set regen to B3 or B5 for when you lift the pedal and no B0 lift and coast.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 19-10-20 at 02:36 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    That make no sense as it is already done.
    As I said the cost for EVs is prohibitive here due to import charges and exchange rate. Elsewhere they are made locally and also subsidised so the initial higher cost doesn't hurt that much.
    I remember days when AU$1 was near US$1. If that ever happens again MAYBE they might find some adoption here.
    Technically EVs should be much cheaper to produce then ICE vehicles, especially when all the new battery giga factories go online.
    Cheaper battery metals are/will be in use with less or no Cobalt and a lot of cheap nickel. The use of LiFePO4 in large vehicles is also a breakthrough.
    Tesla(Musk) is making their battery chemistry open source for all to copy.
    I did say 'total cost of ownership', not just purchase cost -- quick example ; up here we're paying around $1.25/l for 91RON , that's $1.25 for roughly 9.1kwh -- mains electric power is about $0.26/kwh, so to put 9.1kwh into an EV 'off the grid' is $2.66 -- where's the incentive relative to power?.. this is none. If a litre of 91RON cost $3.00 you've got incentive.

    What about road taxes? EV's don't produce bugloads of CO2 in use like ICE vehicles do, and there is something called 'carbon tax' ; ostensibly the EV vehicle owner/user should pay less road tax, because they're not adding to the national CO2 tally...so if say your annual rego cost for EV was half that compared to an ICE vehicle, more incentive.

    However, we're a long way off ~ all the rules/regs are based on engine capacity & number of cylinders, and the whole lot need redrafting to account for EV onwership/usage ; I don't expect to see this in my lifetime =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    I did say 'total cost of ownership', not just purchase cost -- quick example ; up here we're paying around $1.25/l for 91RON , that's $1.25 for roughly 9.1kwh -- mains electric power is about $0.26/kwh, so to put 9.1kwh into an EV 'off the grid' is $2.66 -- where's the incentive relative to power?.. this is none. If a litre of 91RON cost $3.00 you've got incentive.

    What about road taxes? EV's don't produce bugloads of CO2 in use like ICE vehicles do, and there is something called 'carbon tax' ; ostensibly the EV vehicle owner/user should pay less road tax, because they're not adding to the national CO2 tally...so if say your annual rego cost for EV was half that compared to an ICE vehicle, more incentive.

    However, we're a long way off ~ all the rules/regs are based on engine capacity & number of cylinders, and the whole lot need redrafting to account for EV onwership/usage ; I don't expect to see this in my lifetime =)
    Yeah I got that, I meant rego and fuel excise too.
    Our gov says that because they can't earn fuel excise on EVs they HAVE to charge and EXTRA tax on EVs and all non EV drivers will fully agree because EVs use the same public roads that fuel excise payers have funded. Nobody here gives a fark about CO2, well maybe a few hypocrites.

    This EV tax is in the making right now but because so few here actually drive an EV there seems to be no rush.
    We pay actually 35c per kWh(which also includes tax) so there is zero incentive from running cost.
    I am probably the only EV driver in NSW who has an affordable DIY solar/battery setup suitable to charge the vehicle and drive at no running cost.

    So despite my futuristic behaviour, I will join the old farts who say EVs have no future in Australia under the current mentality.
    This era of thoughtless consumption must end so we can encourage a world of creative geniuses rather than consumer idiots.


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    Quote Originally Posted by allover View Post
    My opinion, 1000km range will over come the physiological barrier of owning a ev, forget to charge it at night no problems the next day.
    There is that in it but again, not a lot of people have a car that will do 1000 KM anyway and I think it's more a Holiday time thing than a daily concern.
    And lets face it, 1000KM range still won't stop women running out of Juice. They have a thing with putting fuel in cars, don't expect that to change plugging them in.
    I see a good Business in a small Truck with a 50 KW Genny on the back going round charging up flat EV's. I reckon some women would call you out to charge the thing at home to save them having to plug it in.

    Tesla future is not the vehicles but the battery technology,
    I agree. If they are going to go longer term, it won't be as a car maker but rather as doing a Kodak and surviving off their Tech.
    That said, even the Tesla worshipping Media are starting to point out that much of their tech isn't cutting edge anymore. Their auto Pilot is lagging some of the majors self drive tech, The motors aren't that great, no secerets in the batteries atm and there is nothing that the majors haven't or are about to catch up to.

    Sandy Munroe Bought a tesla Years ago and deconstructed it and has been selling his reports hand over fist at 25 or $50k whatever it was to other manufacturers so there are no secerets with the things and who knows how many companies have bought the cars to reverse engineer themselves?


    Every young person will be driving a electrical vehicle that costs the same as a Hyundai Tuscon that can out perform a top line Porsche, better acceleration, lower center of gravity for road holding and possibly matching top end speed (dependent on distance and battery life
    I think performance is a very limited selling point these days. Most people want a car that gets them from A to B with the best sound system and the most " Apps" ( Fk me!) built in.
    I wonder how many people have ever put their foot flat in their car lest it scare them?


    People say Tesla wont be around in 5 years, I say a lot of vehicle manufacturers wont be around in 5 years in there present form,
    I think they will still all be making cars, I don't think Tesla will.

    As a side note, predictions are that as the uptake of electric vehicles, the proportional price of fuel will rise as less fuel being used, costs have to increase to cover costs diminished returns
    Not sure what the " Proportional" Price of fuel is.
    I think it will get cheaper. The infrastructure is all paid for and the price is basicaly artificial and does not reflect the cost of Production. As recently witnessed when consumption fell off, the price went down to encourage sales. I think this is what will happen. If EV encroach on fuel sales, the price will come down to make the decision less one way . The fuel industry isn't going to just sit back and watch it's profitability evaporate without out putting up some sort of a Fight. That is not logical.

    OTOH I can see the price of power going well Up for reasons outside those of Just EV consumption. That said, the EV recharging infrastructure has yet to be paid for. All those chargers are not going to be cheap and a lot of people don't live in houses where they can use solar nor even have a garage where they can plug in so there is going to be a Huge cost in the recharging network.

    If all the present Ev Fainbois thought the free ride was going to last forever, they were greatly mistaken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    I did say 'total cost of ownership', not just purchase cost -- quick example ; up here we're paying around $1.25/l for 91RON , that's $1.25 for roughly 9.1kwh -- mains electric power is about $0.26/kwh, so to put 9.1kwh into an EV 'off the grid' is $2.66 --
    Those are interesting numbers but you have a massive flaw with that 1l of fuel equating to 9.1kWh, this might be some rubbish you got off the net.
    First of all that 9kWh is indeed roughly what I use and charge each day.
    But I can drive comfortably well over 40km with that.
    I would like to see an ICE powered 1.8 ton SUV that can run for 40km on one litre of fuel !
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 19-10-20 at 04:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Those are interesting numbers but you have a massive flaw with that 1l of fuel equating to 9.1kWh, this might be some rubbish you got off the net.
    First of all that 9kWh is indeed roughly what I use and charge each day.
    But I can drive comfortably well over 40km with that.
    I would like to see an ICE powered 1.8 ton SUV that can run for 40km on one litre of fuel !
    Various sources off-the-net.... high point was 9.1kwh/l ...down to 8.7kwh/l ... but yes, agreed -- that doesn't say it all ; there's a lot of inefficiency between burning the fuel and getting motive power to the ground.

    The equation looks even more convoluted, if you start measuring at the 'E-litre' calculation


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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Those are interesting numbers but you have a massive flaw with that
    There is a massive flaw you are missing with your gloating and whining about IC's.

    The current vehicle model you have costs $30K in IC Version and $57K in Hybrid.

    That $27 K buys a lot of miles of fuel before you even catch up to breaking even.
    Given your repeated claims of the limited driving distance you do, that extra cost is never going to be repaid so you are completely kidding yourself if you think you are saving any money because you are not ever going to come near it. You might be able to fool yourself but you won't be putting it over anyone else that can do basic maths that's for sure.

    As for being the only person in NSW that can Drive at no running cost, sorry! I have now been running on used veg oil and driving my 3 Ton 4WD around ( and other vehicles) for 20 years with no fuel cost and I have done more Sydney / Brisbane trips than I can remember. How much would it cost you to do Syd/ Bris in a day? More than me that's for sure!
    I might not have an EV but I can drive the thing ANYWHERE for Nil Cost and don't have to either Buy fuel or hang around waiting for a recharge. I can tow 3 Tons and it still doesn't cost me anything and with the long range tank, I only have to stop when I want to not be dictated by the Vehicle.
    Not for everyone as is your setup but if you want to get into that dick waving contest, sorry, You Lose!


    And speaking of rubbish off the net, if you did see this, like all the other greenwashed, the first thing you'd jump in and say to protect your preferred narrative is that EV's don't need Oil changes.... as if you have to do that every time you drive them or doing an oil change is something people like wotnot and I would give a second thought to. Few as we may be, some people don't mind getting their hands dirty or risk breaking a fingernail. Others don't see taking the vehicle for a service every 6 Months as the end of the world either.

    Next Crap off the net would be they don't need servicing and Maintenance, which they do, and imply that the only thing an IC ever goes in for is the engine and power train which again is more fantasy. Most cars now need 6 monthly servicing which is once more than an EV. There are still a heap of things on an EV that need attention because other than the power train, they are still Vehicles built largely the same way.


    The next predictable crap from the EV Flag wavers desperate to push their agenda rather than the truth, is that EVs are so much quieter and smoother than an IC as if the engines in Modern IC's shake the whole car to pieces and sound like screamin Jimmys. I can't even hear the engine in the Merc (which is the newest car) with the thing is getting thrown down the road at full boost and the road is exactly what dictates the smoothness of the ride not the engine trying to shake the thing to death as the EV proponents would have one believe. I have never seen anything to suggest to me that EV's have any radically different suspension to an IC and I'd guarantee they don't in models where an IC and a Hybrid is available in the same vehicle. I have never looked up the figures but I would say it would outdo most ev's it's size and price range on performance as well and certainly endurance.

    I drove a Hybrid around NZ for a week and it was a decent enough car and went well. To say it was quieter and smoother when travelling on the road would be stupidity. It was certainly quiet round the carparks which I considered a drawback for pedestrians, but once you got the thing to 30 K you could hear the electric whine louder than you can hear some late model Vehicles engines... except if they are Diesel :0)


    EV's are not the 100 Year leap ahead often they are made out to be and IC's are not something inferior to be endured.
    Both have their positives and negatives but as usual, those with a certain agenda have to lie and exaggerate about everything in order to make their position seem superior.

    I can see a market for EV's such as delivery Vehicles like for Pizza and for city sales reps and people doing short trips all the time but this idea constantly pushed that everything will be an EV in 10 years is just complete and utter bullshit. The guilt tripping the EV green lefties want to put on everyone else for not thinking their way is as predictable as it is laughable.



    The onus is not on the public to tow the line the manufacturers and lefties want to push, it's up to the manufacturers and gubbermints to make EV's an attractive proposition for the market so the next vehicle purchase for Joe Average is a better investment as an EV over an IC.
    Until that happens, not enough people are stupid enough to pay more for a vehicle with greater limitations and practical drawbacks than the cheaper alternative that they are used to for the EV's to really take hold.

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    Hmm, Just realised, it's EXACTLY 20 years today since I first drove on veg oil.

    I remember it well. Was an occasion ( which is why I remember the date) and the mrs was in trepidation of not getting there. Not that I was worried if we didn't. Flicked the switch on the changeover ( as I used then) and waited. and waited. Then realised what everyone had said. Nothing happens. Car, a W123 Merc I called Helga, just went along with no discernable difference. Was the desired outcome but maybe a little disappointing. Got there, got home and got everywhere else I ever wanted to go as well. NEVER had a problem other than blocked fuel Filters which were literally a 2 Minute job to change on the side of the road if I had to. Overcame that pretty quick too as I was just using the wrong Filters. Now I change them every 6 Months as a preventative measure.

    Wonder how many miles I have travelled over the years on Oil?? I'd guess an average of 15 K a year. I know in the early days I did a LOT more running kids to school which wasn't close and then sports on the weekend which would easily be 100 Km each way many weekends. Haven't driven as much in the last few years. So many intra and interstate trips as well. was nothing to do 3000KM in a week. Usually could take all the fuel with me but a few times I topped up from other oilers along the way if I ran short. Had loads of people stop at my place for topups, especially people going from Melbourne to Brisbane and back.

    Still waiting to ruin an engine as people have been telling me for 20 years will happen. I gave up worrying a LOOONG time ago knowing I have saved enough on fuel to buy about 10 engines now. When the kids were little and we weren't so flush with money, the veg fuel was a huge asset to us. Meant the difference between going places and not being able to afford to. Was a HUGE cost saving and money we didn't have to find even with going to work.

    In later years when teaching my son to drive he commented that an older friend had Just got his P plates. I said didn't he get his L'S Like a year ago? Son confirmed he had. I asked what took him so long. Son asked the same thing and friend replied that they couldn't afford fuel for him to just drive round racking up hours like my son could. He did his driving when they had to go somewhere .
    Neither of us thought about that. We'd forgotten when we were in the same boat. The only thing with him doing all his hours on the veg was making him grab a Drum or 2 of fuel before we went out and put it in the Truck so we didn't run short and have to -buy- fuel. Most of the trips we took the collection drum and pumps and came back with a lot more oil than we went out with. Picked up over 14,000L that year, much of which my friend got who made Bio.

    Later when son bought his own petrol car, he used to equate the value of the drums and IBC's I had of oil sitting round into what it was worth in petrol. That made him think about his Vehicle of Choice. They both used to steal my car whenever they could to save fuel cost.

    Very much into solar now and an EV would be a good match for that proclivity but I can't see that ever being as Viable and practical as the veg oil interest has been in the years I have left.
    I have looked at EV's for that reason but even free unlimited power does not make them Viable especially when I could make bio for about .30C litre and run a far cheaper car that again had no limitations.

    I just built a new Veg oil processor on the weekend. New design I am very happy with. It's for a friend that wants to run a lot of heavy machinery off oil to cut his costs.
    Will be a whole new application to that I haven't seen anyone else do. I'm running the tractor, mower, generators and a burner off the oil for the spa and home heating as well.

    Been a great and very profitable interest in my life and a great all round experience with things I have been able to do and friends I have met through it.
    Wish I had of gotten into it 10 years earlier.

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