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    Default Working after hours

    Hi All

    Can i get an opinion, I work in the IT industry and i have noticed an alarming lean to unpaid after hours work. now i am not talking about oh no the system is down we need people on it to fix it. but standard day to day work that is being asked to be done after hours.

    Now in the past things used to be like if you work hours after work it got made up by either getting paid for it or taking time off. there seems to be an attitude in the industry now that it is "part of the job to work unpaid overtime" and i feel that is a very bad attitude to have.

    The way i see it is that lets say your getting paid 38k over a 40 hour week, there are 251 working days less 4 weeks leave is 231 working days in the year that works out to 20.55 per hour. lets say you only work and hour every day that is an additional 260 hours or equal to 30 working days assuming you took all 4 weeks leave entitlements. that works out to a pay cut to 19.80 per hour basically below minimum wage in Australia.

    I know those are just figures but any time worked after hours especially if it is administration i feel should be paid appropriately or given as time off.

    The attitude i am noticing in companies in recent years is that it comes with the work. i feel this type of attitude of managers today needs to be corrected.
    I remember being told when i was much younger in the workforce, not to put in unpaid or un-credited overtime because you then become treated as a slave to the company and expected to work free of charge. this seems to be happening now days.

    its a toxic practice for both the employed and unemployed as not only does it overwork the people who have jobs it robs people of employment who would have otherwise done that work.

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    This is what trade unions are for. An individual worker is under a severe disadvantage if they complain to the employer, however a union can act on advice that the employer is doing the wrong thing without the worker suffering any comeback from the employer.

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  • 23-03-21, 04:01 AM


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    Quote Originally Posted by RogerTheDoger View Post
    This is what trade unions are for. An individual worker is under a severe disadvantage if they complain to the employer, however a union can act on advice that the employer is doing the wrong thing without the worker suffering any comeback from the employer.
    yes that can be a good idea in some cases , but these days the unions have no real power ( and management know that ) so they are in bed with each other anyway. I come from the Construction industry ( Fire / Project Management ) and the union leaders screamed blue murder and anti company sentiment in front of the troops but when they sat down with us it was like a mates catchup for lunch. In fact we used to go to the same parties and industry functions !! Having said that we were very proactive on safety issues and our teams were always paid above the award. Its the easiest way of keeping the best staff. We didnt pay staff for extra time spent on the job outside the contract ( fixed budgets ) but always gave paid time off to make up for it.

    I know what you mean though , some large companies can be absolute assholes.

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    It all depends upon if you are on Salary or Wages. Look at your employment contract. If you are salaried, often you are screwed. On wages, generally you are covered by an industry award which stipulates how you can work and get paid. If you are a union member, take it up with the union, otherwise, the Industrial Relations Tribunal might be able to offer some advice. It's centuries since I looked at any of this (well, at least, not in this century) so my info could be a load of *****. All the best.
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    Unfortunately this and other workplace crimes are becoming far too common.
    The Unions in the 80's would have been on this like stink on shit. However they abused their positions and worse, sided with employers either for favourtism or because they were just afraid of loosing members. When my union blatantly didn't represent its members, I left. The union boss rang me and pleaded his case, which was so pathetically wea, it was no wonder the company walked over them.
    "But think about what good we can do in the future?"
    Great, when I see you do something good in the future, I'll rejoin, but not before.
    That was 20 years ago, and I've not seen a reason to join any other union since.

    Now it is even worse. The government and the ACTU needs to have a witch hunt and start taking complaints from the little guys working for little employers.
    Give them a place to lodge a formal complaint and have it dealt with swiftly. If the employer is found to be negligent, then they will be required to pay the back pay with compounding interest.
    If they are found to be culpable and being aware they are doing something wrong, then the fines should be huge for petty examples. If a worker is short paid $6000 per year for two years, then the employer will be forced to pay $15600 and then a find of $30000 to the government. Directors banned from operating in any companies until the full sum is paid.
    Assets of beneficiaries of the company also held accountable for the money. So shareholders, spouses, family, family trusts etc.
    Victims of a crime are compensated by EVERYBODY who benefits from the crime.

    That brings us to unpaid overtime. This shit has been going on for too long. People do it because they like their work. But it has become an expectation of some employers and it has got to stop. Again, the ACTU and the government need to step up to the fvcking plate on this one.
    Starting with a ban on unpaid overtime. The employers will laugh (at first) but if the government is serious they will then say. As of 12 midnight tonight. Any unpaid work hours will be accountable. It will be paid at double time irrespective of when the time was worked and if caught doing this in the future EVERY hour worked unpaid back to this date will be back paid with compounded interest. Then to company fined and money recovered from all beneficiaries as above.

    Then their is work place bastardry. The awards need to be clearly defined and the employers forced to ensure the employees are aware of the award conditions and how to lodge a complaint. A friend was employed as a mechanic at a higher wage, but then the position was "made redundant" and his wage dropped $10/ hour and he was made a truck driver.
    The mechanic position was filled the next day by a friend of the boss. My friend has no idea who to he can lodge a formal complaint with and is even more afraid of retribution.

    I'm wondering why more employees aren't going postal on their crooked bosses. That shit would tidy up an industry quicker than a union.
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    Your friend should have gone to fair work Australia because the mechanic position was not redundant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    It all depends upon if you are on Salary or Wages.
    That is pretty much it.
    I am not sure how salaried employees paid in all companies, I can only talk about companies I worked for.
    In general, salaried employees have "reasonable overtime expectations" in their contract and in fact 1 hour a day is considered reasonable.
    I also can see a lot of salaried employees pay is comparable or even greater to those on wages who doing overtime - generally 1 hour a day (comparing same qualification, trade etc).

    Again, not saying it is the same everywhere - didn't work for all companies in Australia.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromaron View Post
    That is pretty much it.
    I am not sure how salaried employees paid in all companies, I can only talk about companies I worked for.
    In general, salaried employees have "reasonable overtime expectations" in their contract and in fact 1 hour a day is considered reasonable.
    I also can see a lot of salaried employees pay is comparable or even greater to those on wages who doing overtime - generally 1 hour a day (comparing same qualification, trade etc).

    Again, not saying it is the same everywhere - didn't work for all companies in Australia.
    how about being asked to work public holidays so there is "coverage for interstate customers" i know that has happened in my case a few times. i guess that's tough cookies too?
    if having people on salary encourages this type of exploitation (and that is exactly what it is) then it should be written out of law so people can not be put on salary.

    I wouldn't so much mind if there was flexibility such as ok worked up 5 hours extra this week you can go home early, or hay i need to take the car to the mechanic i am going to be late but when you do that in places like that all you get is "no going home early" or "why cant you get the car serviced on the week end" and are discouraged and looked down on when you need that type of flexibility.

    it is very one sided and the reality is asking people to work without pay is exploitation.

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    And that leads me to an issue we spotted to today. Employment condition says that if an employee works 5 hours the a minimum 30 minute meal break is compulsory.
    Now the words are written with the intention that an employee is entitled to the break and it cannot be taken from them or deferred.
    However, the rules can also be absolute. So the question is, even if you don't want a meal break, you should be forced to take it.
    After all, if you're a truck driver, you are forced to take a break at 6 hours or you will be fined. So there is a precedent.
    If I let my staff work through lunch at their discretion and they then have an accident, that would appear to leave me exposed.

    Now this leads onto another question, some employees will work through lunch and leave early. In one off situations, this isn't a problem but it when it becomes common it can be an issue when problems occur in the last half hour of normal hours.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fromaron View Post
    That is pretty much it.
    I am not sure how salaried employees paid in all companies, I can only talk about companies I worked for.
    In general, salaried employees have "reasonable overtime expectations" in their contract and in fact 1 hour a day is considered reasonable.
    I also can see a lot of salaried employees pay is comparable or even greater to those on wages who doing overtime - generally 1 hour a day (comparing same qualification, trade etc).

    Again, not saying it is the same everywhere - didn't work for all companies in Australia.
    Yes, that clause is often written into salary contracts, but the problem is who decides what a "reasonable overtime expectation" is? In a large Defence contracting company I worked for, the team leaders (there were six) had a different ideas, that ranged from 2 or 3hrs/week to 10hrs/week. Most were at the 10hr/week.

    While I was there, the company originally employed the workers on individual contracts, on wages. Then they decided to change to change to individual contracts on salary, with an extra couple of grand added to the yearly rate that they paid for normal hours on wages. Most of the workers jumped at the the new contracts, but a couple of us declined, mainly because of the loose wording about what was expected (and I didn't want to be obliged to work overtime if I didn't want to). And as it worked out, if I did an extra 2.5hrs/week overtime, I would have got about the same as the new contracts were offering. Also there was no mention of penalty rates for confined spaces for example.

    A few of the blokes gave us a bit of crap telling us we were mad for not taking up the new contracts. Right up until I was asked to work four hours OT per day for the week, because nobody else wanted to work it, and the team leader didn't realise I was on wages. Then somehow I must have dropped my payslip, which someone kindly pinned to the noticeboard, so I could find it easily. You should have heard the hue and cry.. How come he gets that much extra etc.. LOL

    Then the company took on a contract that required quite a lot of confined space work. I didn't do any, but the guys who did, didn't get a cent extra. The company could get away with it because they paid above award wages, and when the contracts were being ratified, there was no confined space work. Had i have done the confined space work, I would have got the allowance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_m_54 View Post
    Yes, that clause is often written into salary contracts, but the problem is who decides what a "reasonable overtime expectation" is? In a large Defence contracting company I worked for, the team leaders (there were six) had a different ideas, that ranged from 2 or 3hrs/week to 10hrs/week. Most were at the 10hr/week.

    While I was there, the company originally employed the workers on individual contracts, on wages. Then they decided to change to change to individual contracts on salary, with an extra couple of grand added to the yearly rate that they paid for normal hours on wages. Most of the workers jumped at the the new contracts, but a couple of us declined, mainly because of the loose wording about what was expected (and I didn't want to be obliged to work overtime if I didn't want to). And as it worked out, if I did an extra 2.5hrs/week overtime, I would have got about the same as the new contracts were offering. Also there was no mention of penalty rates for confined spaces for example.

    A few of the blokes gave us a bit of crap telling us we were mad for not taking up the new contracts. Right up until I was asked to work four hours OT per day for the week, because nobody else wanted to work it, and the team leader didn't realise I was on wages. Then somehow I must have dropped my payslip, which someone kindly pinned to the noticeboard, so I could find it easily. You should have heard the hue and cry.. How come he gets that much extra etc.. LOL

    Then the company took on a contract that required quite a lot of confined space work. I didn't do any, but the guys who did, didn't get a cent extra. The company could get away with it because they paid above award wages, and when the contracts were being ratified, there was no confined space work. Had i have done the confined space work, I would have got the allowance.

    I am fairly sure most people these days in the industry most permanent staff are on salary, however they do show an hourly rate in my contract and in my payslip. sounds like its better to be on wages or work as a contractor to the company.

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    Consistent working unpaid overtime is standard in my industry!

    You will get O/T paid if it becomes excessive but the odd 1/2 hour here, 1 hr there still goes unpaid.

    Oh and don’t get caught leaving early once in a blue moon.
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    I ditched my IT career due to the shite money and the high demands and responsibility.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeroyPatrol View Post
    I ditched my IT career due to the shite money and the high demands and responsibility.
    What industry did you move across to? I am honestly thinking of doing the same but the thought of reskilling at my age is not appealing

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    Quote Originally Posted by bazzy View Post
    What industry did you move across to? I am honestly thinking of doing the same but the thought of reskilling at my age is not appealing
    Since IT in 2010 I've worked as a service advisor in car dealership, Telephone tech (position was made redundant after 9ths), photocopier tech (6 months), cleaner (don't laugh this is when I decided to build a couple of investment properties!! and only did for 6mths), tech (lasted 2 years with covid as the excuse) fixing powered wheelchairs, scooters, anything to do with mobility, and now working in age care while trying to study nursing. I'm 52.
    Last edited by LeroyPatrol; 24-03-21 at 01:38 PM.
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    I gave up IT in the mid 90's, I went to tree lopping/lamdscaping, much better money, and way less stress.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Same here, moved to Kalgoorlie and went mining/demolition/trucking.

    Now I own my own business and hopefully sell up and retire soon.

    With a background in I. T. /explosives/demolition I'd probably make a good terrorist........

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    Quote Originally Posted by bob_m_54 View Post
    Yes, that clause is often written into salary contracts, but the problem is who decides what a "reasonable overtime expectation" is? In a large Defence contracting company I worked for, the team leaders (there were six) had a different ideas, that ranged from 2 or 3hrs/week to 10hrs/week. Most were at the 10hr/week.
    This is a very valid point and depending on the company you work for or even in the same company different departments you find a different answer.
    In majority of cases the answer depends on the management and how they see the exploitation. This is really not fare approach in some cases, probably majority of cases since people in Australia work for small businesses.
    In a large corporate global firms which employ tens of thousand people the picture is much clearer.
    If you need to work Weekend or Public holiday you will be forced by management to take day off in lieu as soon as possible - pretty much next week. As a last resort we can add such days to A/L.
    I manage department and this is certainly how I work with my reports.
    If I need people to work extra hours to complete an urgent job they do it without any objections, because they know very well if they need to be late or leave earlier for personal reasons I will allow as well.
    It all comes to employee and management relationship so it is not that bad how people describe above everywhere. Some places see lots of happy faces.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fromaron View Post
    This is a very valid point and depending on the company you work for or even in the same company different departments you find a different answer.
    In majority of cases the answer depends on the management and how they see the exploitation. This is really not fare approach in some cases, probably majority of cases since people in Australia work for small businesses.
    In a large corporate global firms which employ tens of thousand people the picture is much clearer.
    If you need to work Weekend or Public holiday you will be forced by management to take day off in lieu as soon as possible - pretty much next week. As a last resort we can add such days to A/L.
    I manage department and this is certainly how I work with my reports.
    If I need people to work extra hours to complete an urgent job they do it without any objections, because they know very well if they need to be late or leave earlier for personal reasons I will allow as well.
    It all comes to employee and management relationship so it is not that bad how people describe above everywhere. Some places see lots of happy faces.
    The company I was working for at the time wasn't what I'd call a small business LOL. Actually their deceptive behaviour re allowances and penalty rates, and the fact that they out right refused to allow a third party enterprise bargaining rep, which is your right if you choose to have one, led to one of Australia's longest running strikes (269 days).

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    I’m fine if the time is given back in some way, it’s when you are asked repeatedly to work back extra hours and on public holidays and then the time is lost, and then in the next breath often pulled up if you are late due to issues outside your control.

    Eg. doctor calls and wants to see me urgently following tests, let the boss know immediately “should have given me more notice”

    Or worked public holiday but leave and time off not approved over next few months due to busy period, then once passed go to take it and told I already took it. That sort of thing,


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