Chinese build to a price. If you want a cheap product, you get crap workmanship and materials. If you want a good product, you have to pay them a lot more.
The company I worked for a few years back trialed getting steel truck trays made in China. The first two were absolute garbage. Crap welding and crap steel with a shitty paint job. They then inquired about using first grade steel, welding to Au standards for mining equipment, and decent paint over it. The price made it close to what we could manufacture the same article ourselves, and we didn't have freight charges and build delays.
They can make decent equipment in all fields, if you are prepared to pay for it. Unfortunately, consumers want the cheapest price they can get. Which is why Aus doesn't manufacture much of anything for the domestic market these days. Blame the consumer..
Have to disagree.
Apple got their phones done in China for 10 bucks.
The consumer pays over thousand.
If an iPhone is a crap product is certainly open for debate, I definitely think so,
but I can't blame the consumer if they are willing to pay so much for it, thinking they are getting a quality built product.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 05-05-21 at 11:56 AM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (05-05-21)
In that case there is one word in your reply that dictates the price... "Apple"
My point was though.. If you want a cheap product, they will build it, and most likely will be crap. But if you want then to build a decent product to your specs, they can do that to, but it will cost you.
It is exactly for this reason that Australia really doesn't have another large export target apart from China -- you can't sell coking coal and iron ore to Europe ; the industry isn't there, they've all outsourced to China over the last 2 decades.
Not that this is a 'new' thing ~ I recall back in the late 70's one could construe AU was 'a least one or two world countries' behind CN, when it was us selling them exports such as above, and they selling back to us rolled steel that was a better/cheaper product than what you could get locally made. The aussie steel industry has taken blow after blow, and now that we don't even make cars anymore...you start to wonder just wytf this has happened, because it *should* be cheaper/easier to produce a thing like a car, when you've pretty much got all the raw material resources in your own backyard...crazy. More like somebody said 'they don't have a large enough population to support a car manufacturing industry', end of story.
Absolutely...but in practice, they build to specification, down to the minutia of detail, wherein the high the spec, the higher the price.
One example I can think of, is Stihl ...their newer made in CN tools are just as good as the older made in DE units, -and- spare parts are cheaper. -Lots- of different vehicle manufactures make vehicles relying on something made in CN, and when I say that, I say those made in CN parts pass that vehicle's company QA/QC and regulation tests to certified for use on the road. I wonder how much of modern airliners sport made in CN electronics? Thing fall, from the sky.
Another good example, is getting some electronic device manufactured there -- or more to the point, customized to your specification...ie; made in CN means every tablet device, in every size and spec, from nasty things sold in Aldi specials through to high iPads and Samsung gear etc -- they can make any specification of these devices because they already do, but it's up to the buyer/customer to decide how high a spec they require. Once that's figured out, it becomes a point of what minimum order quantity you're looking at, to arrive at the per unit price....then....you give them all your money, and they deliver. That order, slam bam thank you ma'am. You get what you paid for.
I think if you search the web, the average estimated production cost of a modern iPhone was less than half it's retail price or something like that... so Apple's making a comfortable profit at that hardware spec ; is that the best spec available? Very probably not, I'm sure CN could produce a mobilephone of high spec than an iPhone in a sneeze (at the hardware level), but it'd likely cost more than what Apple's paying. I often wonder if the reason why Apple's always slow to respond to hardware faults (and then being so evasive about it), is because -they too- have been locked into a production contract, and have already given the CN builders their money, and there's phuq all you can do about that ..haha.. =)
eaglem (12-05-21)
China do produce higher spec phones than iPhone.
Huawei and oneplus.
Oppo and Google pixel, well pixel are made by htc in Taiwan......
Sent from my LE2120 using Tapatalk
eaglem (12-05-21)
OK, my recent purchase of a Doogee S96 Pro phone for mere AU$400 puts the build quality of every Apple, Samsung, Huawei deeply to shame.
I am not talking camera specs, I have a proper Panasonic camera with decent lenses for that, although this phone has an IR camera not found elsewhere but how solid it is constructed with real screws, actual reusable rubber seals, all the internals removable and replaceable, like things used to be built in the past century and not a sticky tape and foil party when you try to open those hyper overpriced so called flagship phones that can only be described as throwaway products.
It is also super fast and the screen is so bight it blinds me and even with 3x magnifying glasses I can't see the pixels despite the low count everybody bags it for.
So yes Chinese can build good quality AND cheap.
It is not always the old simplistic view of you get what you paid for, there is a bit more to that.
I would still not buy an (electric) car made AND designed in China but if I want an affordable Tesla model I might not have any other choice than made in China.
As for components (microchips) they are all made in Taiwan not China, which is an entirely different story.
Maybe the Taiwanese could protect themselves by sending modified chips for the Chinese rockets/missiles that self destruct right after takeoff when the missiles are programmed with Taiwanese targets.
As it seems China can't design/make microchips they would be screwed and world peace might be maintained, well I don't know about Russia
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 07-05-21 at 12:40 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (07-05-21)
"There are at least 293 semiconductor wafer fabrication or packaging and testing plants spread across 20 different provinces in China." ...or if you'd like to know who some of the players are... ...(and this may be likely not including plants/foundries they don't want us to know about =) Like...for long time now we've all known China designed/fabbed their own ix86 clone CPUs, and I guess there's little doubt some of these fabs are producing their MilSpec inhouse designed chips for local use, likewise for their space silicon -- it's all under one roof in CN =)
Wrt EVs... I see Tesla has dropped the case against Xpeng for stealing (old) IP, so even Electric Jesus has limited clout there -- not at all surprising. On top of that, the Xpeng P7 which is near as dammit the chinese Telsa Model 3 clone, is available in AU but it's not significantly cheaper....in fact after import stamp duty/taxes etc, there's spitting difference between the two....(but I'd hunch at spare parts for the Xpeng being cheaper).
The way I tend to look at it, China is the first world country, and every other country is second world at best ...once you start outsourcing manufacturing to another country, you immediately become a dependent of that other country, and not self reliant ; that's not a political statement, it is what it is. Such a comment may put the noses out of joint of some seppo readers, but I'm sure it's obvious even the US feels it's slipping behind the world country rankings
Over say the last 50years China has become what it is today, because companies were watching their bottom line, and not their national pride ; it's all about money, little else. In the 70's the worry was multinational conglomerate corporations taking over, and I recall the big advertising push to 'Buy Australian Made' ; what a sensational flop -that- was ~ the multinational companies still achieved their ends, and outsourced manufacturing to not only China, but any other (2nd? 3rd? world) country where production costs were lower, and profit margins higher, and it's one of those things that under-developed, non-1st world countries always seem to have the cheapest labor rates...right?
Anyhow, for mine the 3 world model is historical, antiquated, and not bound by the contexts of the 'now' global political climate, and really has nothing to do with it's original founding ... see ->>
One's perceptions of what is a 1st, 2nd or 3rd world country, largely hinges on exactly how old you are. and whether you lived through the period of The Cold War or not -- you had to be there (in time) ; if you weren't born before 1980, you'll likely have little idea of the context this 3 world model was drawn in. Now....it looks more like a buzz word journalist can hype, instead of the 'red menace' line hyped years ago =)
VroomVroom (10-05-21)
No one has mentioned China's self manipulation of its' currency to deliberately keep their currency low while the majority of other countries float there's
I would say that is where they have an unfair advantage leading to the above arguments and resentment
There is a fine line between "Hobby" and "Madness"
eaglem (09-05-21)
China is not very represented in that Wiki list.
I have no doubt they have a lot of semiconductor wafer firms for discrete and basic ICs but we are talking microchip/CPUs here, not just manufacture but also design.
What we should all know by now is that the Chinese are master of stealing and copying but not of creation, so much that I sometimes think they lack a creativity gene.
Never heard or seen a Chinese ix86 clone in my 40 years of 'messing around' with electronic hardware, nor does a DuckDuckGo search reveal anything there.
Maybe some of their semi co's can reverse engineer and clone chips, who knows.
I am pretty sure the Chinese would often use chips from Taiwan for their devices, which might be the underlying the reason why China is so energetic lately about taking control over Taiwan.
I feel the same lately about China being first world for many things, which I do not see as a good thing but if I go any further into detail I might make some people here angry who miss understand me as it it has often happened in the past.
I will just say that I think this rating model still can be applied today, just the the criteria have changed which has reshuffled the nations and the stronger nationalistic thinking of many countries today can make people very angry, who considered themselves first world in the past.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (07-05-21)
thanks unkie , I have a son who,se married to a Taiwanese , they hate the Chinese generally and are considered dishonest crook they dont seem to have the inventive gene and put a lot of effort into the copy market seems to be that they are not "allowed "to enter the manufacturing facilities in Taiwan and are not encouraged tourists could say more but ????
eaglem (12-05-21),gulliver (11-05-21),Uncle Fester (07-05-21)
Oh for sure, but one always has to wonder how much of it is contrived/planned to actually -fit- the model at hand. The cart often leads the horse in politics.
I think what I saw, was the Cold War fizzle out with a whimper, due to the boredom of perpetual stalemate, and a relatively quiet economic war took it's place...with only the GFC and such marking it's existence.
Along a similar tangent, I was chatting with my mum recently (she just turned 80yo \o/) about the UN, and what I thought about it, and the conclusion I came to was China got away with a lot since the late 40's, as founding members of the UN. It's just an observation.
Going by the revised 3 world model criteria, CN will *never* reach 1st world status, just because they don't have a democratic political system ; they probably lose more brownie-points due to class distinction, lack of civil rights, no transparency in govt. ...blablabla. So even though they are the powerful manufacturing nation they are, good'old Australia is -always- going to rank higher than them in the new world order 3 world model...(even though we're largely dependent on exports to CN to make ends meet)....the irony is sublime =)
China outsource to the likes of TSMC to get wafers cut, and at the same time CN considers Taiwan 'their property', and there's a perceived threat that one day CN will take it back ; TMSC is building another new foundry in the US ...not sure how much fab you get for a reported $12bn in greenbacks, however it may herald as contingency for a possible future {shrug}..who knows. There's always safe money betting on the case that CN could do it themselves.
I really can't see much changing, until food becomes more valuable than any other commodity ~ often once the pinch of wallet is replaced with the pangs of hunger, the people becoming displeased and restless.
hinekadon (08-05-21),Uncle Fester (07-05-21)
Yes a true democratic system has always been the main definition of a first world country, defined by the first world democracies of the past but right now that is being questioned by both super powers:
USA that is barely hanging by the neck of a 77 y/o Democrat who is considered senile by the other half who don't give a rats about democracy.
China, who has now proven to their people that communism can lead to great power under a dictator while trying to prove that democracy is full of flaws.
Covid is revealing the true colours of each country and also where democracy is failing, even here currently with the excuse that the democratic freedom we(I also mean the western democratic world) once enjoyed is being slashed for our protection.
From Covid deaths to world hunger is only a thin line and it is and will be everybody for themselves eventually, no more space for democratic luxuries, too many people to feed.
Only the self sustainable will survive and especially if anybody survives the next world war, not if but when.
I sound like a prepper, oh yes I am.
I already have the entire English and German Wikipedia OFFLINE on my new Chinese ruggedised phone as well as backed up on my old Chinese one (Huawei not so rugged) just in case we get cut off from the internet.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 07-05-21 at 09:28 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (08-05-21)
Having visited "inland" China i.e. NOT the tourist traps. The people are still friendly and helpful to "outsiders". I'd happily return there. That said! Most Chinese are still living in, what we would call, primitive conditions. The houses are concrete boxes with only a couple of rooms. Toilets are a slot in the concrete (sorta like the long drops of old), cooking is often on an open fire outside. In the home itself is just a bed and maybe a television with very few "creature comforts". As far as Government intervention is concerned (Communist), it is not evident, although, I did not live there for longer than a few days, so, it is not something I can really comment upon. IIR I shall ask my daughter in law about it when next I see her.
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 08-05-21 at 12:05 AM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (08-05-21)
China by the wold definition is a Second world country.
First World now called developed countries.
Second World was communist countries.
Third World is now called developing countries.
I could now probably make up my own model with several levels from "Countries that have their shit together" down to "Hopeless Basket Cases"
Or Countries like North Korea that are both. A basket case country that has it's shit together.
Think it might need several variables to describe them.
Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
NK = first world because everybody is happy ...otherwise they will be executed.
I think China would like to trend in that direction as well.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (09-05-21)
eaglem (12-05-21),eeprommemory (11-05-21),hinekadon (09-05-21)
if you really want to see what china is like ADVChina on youtube is the best.
wotnot (11-05-21)
Well, err... Ouch!
There goes the chance for the human race to survive when we all nuke ourselves on Earth.
I was only recently playing a Mars simulation game called "Surviving Mars".
At sol 128 Earth Attacked and wiped my colony out !
Yesterday another Chinese inverter broke, of course solder splatter on the PCB caused a short but quality German semiconductors inside, mostly now all fried.
Anything non Chinese costs 20X more, not viable for the purpose.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 15-05-21 at 05:38 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
hinekadon (15-05-21)
Bookmarks