Reply With Quotewotnot (24-12-21)
In short, we give one another cr*p here all the time. Nothing personal. Hopefully we learn something in the process. I know I have and not just in this thread.
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
wotnot (24-12-21)
Can you imagine if trash turned up in this thread and passed comment? B^) THEN you'd see true denigration in full flight...lol...Originally Posted by lsemmens
An analogous construct here, would be getting an air cooled IC engine, and setting up a test-bed wherein you were able to replace the ambient air (specific heat capacity of 1) with another kind of gas...lets say argon (specific heat capacity of 0.5) --without changing anything else in that cooling system, you've effectively halved the heat exchange performance of that system.
I personally blame all of this, on the fact I paid attention in high-school chemistry/physics =)....and that's long before we get into mechanical machinations.
lsemmens (24-12-21)
Wow... Another few pages of "War And Peace". I get what your problem is, but do you??
If you don't like me, then personally BLOCK ME. I made a simple final statement regarding...
"Simply that it was an interesting, (and tongue-in-cheek!) experiment that would be fun to try for laughs on some old bomb. Have a good day..."
Now you further denigrate me because of my 'punctuation' etc also. What is your problem!!! You totally 'smack' of someone who has a personal vendetta
against me, from some other forum?? Please do not write the NEXT few chapters of 'War And Peace' please!! Try! letting it go, and move on!
EDIT: What happened to the OTHER massive typiing/put-down that was in your post??? Oh... new stuff added. You are a BULLY mate,,,
Last edited by Ah-Those-Old-Days!; 28-12-21 at 11:04 PM.
LoL.... for the followers of Zippy the Pinhead, and other enlightened homo sapiens that understand the spiritual significance of the spin cycle...
...2 and a half years prior to Garage54 doing the vid that's the focus of this thread, some new age millennial types had already done the same thing in warmer climes....and in so doing dropped oil on the road and demonstrated their environmental disregard. If one is anyways conversant with how an IC car engine works, the humour's not in the video, but in the myriad of senseless comments =)
lsemmens (01-01-22)
(O.P. here...) PLEASE, ADMIN!!! can you shut down this Post, or can I do so myself somehow?????
I don't want to read another word from a certain bully, and would like to know how to block him too??
People often say that "Life's too short"... well, MY life is DEFINITELY too short, medically, to tolerate verbal bullies & big-heads...
May he find 'ants' to burn with a magnifying glass, or abuse the neighbours kids... what ever gives him 'power'
This is what you asked, in a technical forum, and technically the use of 3 exclamation marks followed by 3 question marks, is non-standard use of English, and should be connoted as meaning 'express utter confusion or disbelief' ; you haven't actually asked a question -- this is called 'grammar'. If you'd presented you English more clearly, and had asked 2 questions instead, it looks like this;
Does this all sound too good to be true? -- the answer is 'yes'
Am I missing something? -- absolutely, in fact you're missing a great many things, all the way from common sense observations (the dead cold of Russian winter), to all the various answers I've (and others) supplied, that go on to detail all the individual elements and operational points relative to a internal combustion engine, that explain why you don't use oil instead of water for this job, and why it won't work. If you want to construe my very much bombastic formal while I lambast the thread topic, that's your prerogative ~ with respect, you need to 'adult up' and stop thinking you're in a schoolyard playground or on some social media platform, and realize you're in a technical forum, wherein reading the answers proffered by the many knowledgeable members here, can actually example/teach you something, from which you can learn....m'kay?
So I'll keep soldiering on....
Yeah, I can't even imagine what would happen first....ie; would the vanes break/crack initially due to the increased load of the more viscous fluid, or is the impeller going to deform/melt once the oil got really hot? One would really need to do the experiment itself, to find out how hot the oil is likely to get...and oil can get up to 250-450C with nothing to stop it -- actually, plastics forming using hot oil is an industrial process..in either event, that plastic impeller is doomed as doomed can be....but there's more to go wrong here than one might think....
....even if it were an older IC engine with metal water pump impeller, the increased viscosity of the oil-as-coolant is going to increase bearing loads on the water pump drive shaft, and so whatever bearings in the pump the OEM put there to give good service life doing the job of 'carrying' that 5-10hp of crankshaft power to turn the impeller, will be no longer adequate to pump oil requiring, say, twice as much power to turn. It doesn't stop there either...
....the water pump shaft seals ; granted there might no longer be a pressurized cooling system in play, however these seals have been designed to retain the water based coolant -- they are -not- oil seals. Same goes for all the original cooling system fittings and hoses ...start flowing hot oil though these, and they'll start to absorb/swell with the oil and go soft, and invariably fail...things get a bit freaky in my head thinking about oil @ 200C flowing through you average everyday radiator hose (in a car, try imagining a hot oil leak in the cabin from a failure with heater hose...nasty =)
Pretty much any/every mechanic who's had to look at/repair an overheated (read: 'cooked') IC engine, knows how it pans-out when the entire engine assembly has been subject to temps north of say 200C -- lets pick something ubiquitous like the good'old holden 6 red-motor... every gasket's cooked and leaking from the sump pan to the tappet cover, and everywhere inbetween, every o-ring or oil seal has gone hard and brittle and no longer seals anything, you probably expect cracked manifold, valve seat overheat, blablabla, just because the engine was run outside it's operating temperature specification. How many mechanics here have pulled down a cooked engine, got to removing the conrod bigend fasteners, and discovered more than a few having very little clamping torque left on them? It used to blow me away...ie; how in blazes did that -not- fall off by itself? =)
Keeping the engine (long)block at it's designed operating temp...regardless of what fluid you use as coolant... reflects that far down into IC engine design, wherein if it's allowed to get too hot, even in older all cast iron IC engines, the heat expansion stretches bolts/fasteners, thus relieving the holding torque...all very technical, but true. With a petrol IC engine, even a carby fueled one, you run into big combustion control problems (detonation/pre-ignition) if you let things get too hot, which is sort of ironic in a way, in that you have to keep things cool enough to get a controlled bang out of something to make mechanical energy which produces heat that you have to get rid of to keep things cool.. B)
I'm not entirely sure what would happen at the welch (core/freeze) plugs if the block/head(s) gets too hot where they are used ; lot of differential expansion rates between two different metals, it'd be an unsurprizing failure point. If the cylinder head gets too hot, you lose your valve-stem/valve-guide clearance, and get sticking valves (and it takes more power to turn the camshaft). If the metal of the block/head becomes too hot, the lubrication oil of the engine overheats as well, and forces it into an operating temperature range it wasn't designed for.
Vodka stands a chance =) Done properly you'd somehow modify the radiator top tank, so you could somehow catch/condense the alcohol vapors back into a liquid. As you then have two phase changes going on, you should be able to remove even more heat via way of the alcohol condensor....vodka's probably not the best alcohol for this job, and likely pay out on rubber hoses/seals etc... ever seen a drunk seal? In soviet russia, car fix you =^)Those Russians should try Vodka in their radiators.
Probably cheaper there than oil or demineralised water
Wow...just wow....(O.P. here...) PLEASE, ADMIN!!! can you shut down this Post, or can I do so myself somehow?????
I don't want to read another word from a certain bully, and would like to know how to block him too??
People often say that "Life's too short"... well, MY life is DEFINITELY too short, medically, to tolerate verbal bullies & big-heads...
May he find 'ants' to burn with a magnifying glass, or abuse the neighbours kids... what ever gives him 'power'
Firstly, the only place any 'bullying' is going on here, is inside your head...seriously. If I was involved in/with a 'personal attack' on, or else were so called involved with 'trolling' you, admin/moderators here would be on my case in a heartbeat -- they're not, because quite simply I am not bullying or trolling anyone here, least of all yourself.
Secondly....over 700 reads/views of this thread, and good chance a percentage of those have actually learnt something in the reading, and led them an understanding of the many reasons why it wouldn't work. On top of that, any of the hundreds of folks who have read/viewed this thread, have the intrinsic civil liberty of the 'right to reply' --- they're free to post comments, ask me (or the forum) about any of the points raised here, even pop questions requesting a further explanation if they wanted to....and just because -you- can't play the forum interaction etiquette correctly, and personally feel to take umbrage, you would have this thread closed, and deprive those many others the right to reply?
If you no longer wish to continue reading this thread -- don't click on it to read it!!!! Simples...and again, with respect, please try to 'adult up', and stop displaying selfishness ; I've typed all the content I have here 'selflessly' in the hope that others might read and perhaps learn something from my efforts --- what are you trying to achieve here?
Just quoting myself for reference here, to point out my words of having seen engines that have 'gone north of 200C' is accurate, but I'm referring to the fail-state temperature, not the normal operating temperature of your average car IC engine when in normal use...so let's try and quantify that.
When you buy a 'good, used' 2ndhand engine from a wrecking yard (and many times engine reconditioners do the same thing), they stick 'heat tabs' to the engine block and head, as a QA measure, so they can tell if the customer who bought the engine, had somehow overheated it and lobbed up back at the sellers looking for a warranty claim.
If you're not familiar with this tech, then you can grab this product pdf and have yourself a read -->
As stated, these tabs start to melt at around 250F (121C), and that is the maximum temp that the block/head/coolant is allowed to get to, before catastrophic damage, or warranty voiding failure occurs. In your daily driver, the block/cylinderhead metal temps are somewhere between 10 ~ 20C higher than the coolant temp (dictated by physics..if coolant is 75C what you're cooling has to be hotter, to be able to 'push' heat into the coolant), so usually block temp is around 95C give or take, with an engine fitted with a 75C thermostat, and the cooling package working as it should...dry conditions, plenty of ambient air @ 30C etc etc...normal driving conditions for AU.
This is the temperature you -have- to keep the block/head/coolant at, regardless of what fluid you use for coolant -- heat is the enemy.
What we need, is a test-bed ....I was just talking with my housemate about all this .... here's one he prepared earlier (last year =)
It's a Holden 138ci grey motor, bit of an odd-bod in that it's the 'industrial power unit' version of the old side-plate engine, with the remote mounted Lucas oil filter (out of sight other side) setup, which is a bit of a boon here, because you can grab the datapoint of how hot the engine lubricating oil gets really easily.
I had a yarn to him, detailing the experiment conditions, setup, and what purpose is being served by replacing the coolant water, with oil, and where this notion had come from (youtube) and what the experiment was trying to prove...ie; oil instead of water won't work (in most all cases, YMMV in really cold climates).
He's actually up for it....caveat getting the test-rig up to snuff ; he's only just started trying to run in up, and already has a radiator & water pump leak to deal with, but once she's all good we'll do a test run first using plain old distilled water, grab all our temp/time data, then we'll drain the water from engine block and radiator hoses.....actually, having a bit of water hanging around in the system, that eventually gets emulsified with the oil-as-coolant, once the oil reaches 100C the water component will start to phase change (boil off, un-pressurized system), and one might see that in that data...the temp rise time of the oil-as-coolant will plateau/slow @ around 100C, and once the water is all boiled off, the temp rise will increase, faster...than the time it took to get to 100C (it was sinking heat into the water emulsified in the oil...I guess we'll see ...
Note, we won't be doing the lube oil pressure gallery bypass into coolant gallery -- we don't want to cause oil starvation to the valve rocker shaft (in the Lada, that would've caused same at the camshaft =) Don't hold your breath, old'mate moves at his own pace, could take months before the show's on the road, but we will do it...just for 'fun' .. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Last edited by wotnot; 02-01-22 at 06:48 PM.
lsemmens (03-01-22),RedXT (24-10-22),VroomVroom (03-01-22)
try ATF its thin W3-5 and cheap.
Nah. ATF is hinky stuff and we want to keep close to the original premise..ie; engine oil. I can get a castrol semi-synthetic 5W-30 for around $5.50/litre (20L drum)
This...not forgotten ~ had it running over the weekend, done some tidying up, old'mate is just going over the tappets to ensure clearances are good.
Then we can set about doing a run with water in the cooling system, take notes.....and do it again with oil. During the water as coolant run, I'll plot temperature rise / time -- this'll give others a chance to speculate just how bad oil is going to be as coolant (you should be able to get close just using specific heat values of the two fluids)....more later...
Brings back memories, I used to work on them back in my apprentice days
wotnot (24-10-22)
Brings back memories, I used to work on them back in my apprentice days
So...you going to make an educated guess on how much worse oil is going to be as a coolant compared to water?
I think it makes sense to conduct the test without a radiator cap ...I suppose the result will be something like ...it took 'x' minutes from ambient to reach 100C with water as coolant.
Once we have that number, ppl can estimate/guess how many minutes it'll take for oil to reach the same temperature. Might pay to take a MAP reading along the way (try and account for any additional loading from coolant circulation pump)
Had a 48 Chev with a head gasket problem and the sump was full of a grey liquid ( Water in Oil ) and I drained it regularly and the car kept running for ages.
Mate rebuilt the motor for 20 quid and I drove it to Sydney and after doing my money on the punt I had to sell it.
wotnot (24-10-22)
Older engines were a lot more tolerant, and regularly changing the oil out will put off the inevitable (big-end/main bearing knock, piston bore/ring wear, camshaft...anywhere there's high oil sheer loadings).
Theoretically speaking if you had an oil/water mix and no radiator cap, then as the water phase changes (to steam), the oil et al shouldn't go much over 100C ...until the water's all gone =)
We'll end up seeing this at a guess...ie; changing the water to oil, and back again, should end up with a small amount of water emulsified in the oil, and this scenario should play out...
...unfortunately speaking, after doing the valve gear and finally running it up, we've noticed the rear main seal is totally shot, and even with that slight angle on it in the cradle it's pissing out oil everywhere...we may fix that first...
The tests will be no load runs ~ current thoughts about what to do with it (practically) involve 3 car alternators to make a 200+ amp DC welder.
How many minutes it takes for the individual media to reach 100 ˚C is basically irrelevant. While it will be somewhat faster with oil, you must also consider the time it takes for the metal(alloys) of the motor to reach that temperature which have a much higher heat capacity than the water or the oil.
So despite oil having roughly only 50% the specific heat capacity of water it will not reach 100˚C 50% faster.
Far more relevant is when it reaches a STABILE temperature !
So the big question is, will THAT temperature be higher with oil or water?
While it takes longer for water to heat up, it also takes longer to dissipate that heat. That means water holds the heat longer hence the term specific heat CAPACITY.
Therefore oil might actually transport the heat better as it could cool down faster in the radiator, if the radiator allows it to do so.
However the radiator is designed for water, not oil.
The temperature must end up higher for oil when the motor is idling but at higher revs when the fan is properly cooling the radiator the oil might perform somewhat better but the viscosity will remain a big problem.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 24-10-22 at 10:06 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
wotnot (24-10-22)
Thanks fester ...a lot of these data points I've considered, but without getting too technical we're keeping it basic...like the russians....do you think we should go to the extreme of putting the whole lot in a -15C coldroom? 8^)
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