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Thread: Old VS New Car Engines??

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    Default Old VS New Car Engines??

    All my life, I've done my own servicing, and over 90% of the time my own repairs too.
    I understand that today, they are a totally new beast, with dozens of sensors & computers...
    However, I have a few bitches about how things are done these days, in respect to certain repairs etc.!!

    1- Welsh Plugs! I understand that 'brass' ones would/do cost more, and they want to keep the costs down,
    but would you mind paying say $29,575 for a car? instead of say $29,560 to have brass instead of steel ??
    And then find down the track that one is corroded/leaking & they propose a major engine overhaul?? Especially
    if it is at the back of the engine against the FireWall... sigh... (Haha, Many OLD cars had a hole-saw hole through
    the firewall to change that Welsh-Plug, and the old one was just knocked inside if you couldn't get it out)

    2- In days of old, due to practical & economical reasons, if an Engine had any relatively major problems, either you,
    or someone!, would take the engine out and simply re-vamp it!! Be-it Rings & Bearings, maybe replace the Valve-
    guides, maybe 'lap-In' the valves if not replacing individual ones, and your engine is like new!! NOT TODAY though...
    The slightest 'hint' of anything needed like that, a Salesman in an Armani suit turns his/her nose up, as they get the
    receptionist to fetch you a coffee, and informs Grandma/Grandpa/Mum/Dad that they need a new engine for $5000.

    3- Parts Supplies... Sigh. We used to be able to go to numerous outlets, and if you knew what you wanted, (because
    one was edumercated by fsmily/friends), to show up at a Counter, and get Brushes for a Generator/Alternator, and
    clutch plates or brake shoes/pads, or even the specific needed 'Head-kit' etc etc with all the Gaskets/O-rings etc...
    Even if you/your mate/your dad/local mechanic did the work, they were supermarkets for everything you wanted!!

    Oh... Not NOW though... You go into a f**king DealerShip, where suited powers to be roam around carrying 'Armani'
    suite-cases, while walking through ridiculously opulent areas that cost the company a fortune, now passed on to you!
    Eventually, (as in one case for me, there were many!), some upstart informed me that the new Hyundai head light 'globe'
    would cost me $350 !! After informing the management about fitting certain things where the sun don't shine and walking
    out, (evidently it has a 'special' high intensity discharge system), I found a pack of 2 on eBay for $50, & it worked fine!!!

    I GUESS what I'm trying to say, (other than being old, and from old-school!), is that I understand that the average 'Joe-Bloe'
    who isn't mechanically literate, is in NO WAY being informed these days, and it F**King pisses me off!!
    Last edited by Ah-Those-Old-Days!; 02-02-22 at 10:25 PM.

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    Also with newer cars, typically, there are so many solenoids, sensors valves etc in then that if one packs up it's throw the whole unit away and put a new one in because the time spent dismantling, inspecting and replacing said suspect part could actually cost you more (in labour) than the new one in the first place. Old cars were much simpler but also way less efficient. My old Falcon (XT -1968), on a good day would do at best 11L/100 but on average was around 15L/100 May last Statesman (WM) was, at worst, about 10L/100 and average about 9L/100. My current car (Hyundai) averages around the 6L/100 mark. So fuel economy has improved immensely, it's a pity that fuel prices haven't.... Another thing worth considering, too, is that old cars used to be considered high mileage at 80,000 miles whereas modern cars often run 2 or three times that before they are considered High mileage units. I'm pushing 150k miles in my current car and expect to have it for another 60 off K miles before I would even consider a replacement and by that, I do mean MILES, not kilometres.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    One problem is that dealers aren't supposed to charge for diagnostic time, only the time spent replacing the actual part in question.

    I have personally spent multiple entire days tracking down problems. One I remember was a pickup coil in a distributor that only went open-circuit above a certain engine temp, another was a coaxial lead that some numty had "probed" with a test light (bridging the outer conductor to the inner). Sounds simple enough in hindsight but try figuring it out from scratch!

    The point is, it's cheaper for the dealership just to replace entire assemblies and if that fixes the problem then job done. They could spend a day tracing the problem to a cheaper component, which might save the customer some money, but that costs the dealership money, so... guess who gets screwed?!

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    Old VS New Car Engines??

    My 'new' engines have only one moving part

    However on the other side, even if I only plug into the charge port I can hear at least 6 contactors waking up.
    I become aware that 14 battery management systems come to life together with the master BMS.
    Then under the bonnet in a sight 'glass' a blue liquid starts bubbling.
    With an app via Bluetooth on my phone I can see all the action happening with many intricate details, I find very interesting.
    And all this just to charge a battery.

    I have never owned a more complex piece of machinery, with many auxiliary items I have yet to fathom.
    The electronic speed controller alone takes up almost as much space as the generally unused ICE, which I hopefully I never have to attend to.
    It all just works together perfectly. Every other car I had needed fixing every now and then even my Merc.

    I doubt there is a single person in Australia who would be able to get down to the nitty gritty if something went wrong with this beast, there are just too many directions for the electrons to flow.
    It is as Bigfella237 says, an entire expensive assembly is replaced and if they got that wrong another one is ordered and replaced as well, not admitting that the first one was not relevant.
    I will do the best I can on my own if something should ever go wrong.
    Luckily there are still contactors, usually not that impossible to locate and replace except the HV ones located inside the battery pack for safety reasons.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 03-02-22 at 08:54 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Old VS New Car Engines??

    My 'new' engines have only one moving part
    LoL...lies!..your armatures have bearings and a pinion! Does it have moving coolant/oil? I am a cheeky bugga


    Anyhoo...

    1. Wrong...to begin with, it's welch plug not 'welsh' plug (a good friend of mine lives in Wales), and in engines they fit core plugs (colloquially called freeze plugs depending on where you live), I'd have to dig through some really old manuals to find the last time welch plugs were commonly used in engine cooling systems...it was a long time ago. Welch plugs you'll find exampled in piston gudgeon bores of 2stroke diesels, to seal off the crankcase from 'airbox' flow/pressure (that's not an air-filter box, but the supercharger output collector).

    Also, you may not know that one always fits steel core plugs to diesel engines, because those engines are subject to cavitation/erosion of metal parts within the cooling system (not to be confused with chemical/galvanic corrosion, different thing) -- brass core plugs aren't hard enough, and they erode (as do the cylinder liners/sleeves, as every diesel fitter knows =), and become subject to metal fatigue cracks (caused by percussive vibration shocks traveling through the coolant and engine block/head) Fitting brass core plugs to a diesel is a big NO...simple as that. I think this worth mentioning, just considering how many diesel light vehicles are out there...mental vision of (angry) customer arguing with the dealer's service manager about the fact customer was insisting brass welch plugs in their diesel, and manager defending the position of why not, and to fit steel plugs instead =)

    Again, technical forum, and no datapoint to help discern what 'old' is, when referring to 'old engines'...not you lsemmens, you're on the ball, mentioning dates/models =) For example, my 32year old rb30 in the Skyline with some 600,000+ klms on it, I would definitely consider to be an 'old' engine by today's standards, even though it's EFI with alloy cylinder head...it's still 'old'. You know what else that engine is fitted with? The original OEM steel core plugs, none have started leaking nor show any external signs of corrosion. Is this a fluke, magic perhaps?...nope, it's defined by numbers and words in the maintenance service schedule...ie; every 40,000klms or 24months (whichever occurs sooner), drain and replace engine coolant with distilled water and approved anti-corrosion/anti-freeze additive. That's all you have to do ~ adhere to the advised service schedules, no rocket science involved B)

    Then again, some might not consider a 1989 rb30 nissan i6, to be an 'old engine'...how far back do we have to go here, to find when manufacturers started advising the use of anti-corrosion additives in the ENGINE coolant?

    Let's see.... as we have Holden workshop manuals on the shelf here from FX thru to VH, we'll head down that route. We can go back to the 1961 EK with the 138ci sideplate i6 grey motor, and in the cooling section of that manual it reads to replace coolant with 'pure' water, and add corrosion inhibitor (soluble oil), and anti-freeze if you lived in cold areas of 32F/0C..(which you could buy from your nearest NASCO shop B^) -- in actual usage, nobody ever did, they just topped them up with bore water, pond water, tap water, end of story. I mentioned this to my housemate..."How many times did you ever pop the radiator cap of an old Holden, and see the white water of soluble oil?", and he just laughed, "One in a thousand maybe, the rest were the normal brown rusty water full of scale"....so absolutely true, and because folks didn't heed this technical advice of adding soluble oil, a whole slew of things would go wrong in the cooling system...from premature failure of the water pump seal (designed to be lubricated by the soluble oil, and not eroded by rust/scale particles suspended in the coolant), to the radiator core tubes becoming blocked by rust/scale pieces...and of course, the blaming of steel core plugs for failing due to them being made of steel....but wait! There's more...

    These rust/scale pieces are very hard, like sharp 'grit', and when suspended in and traveling with the coolant flow, they act like a liquid sand blaster...they have an erosive power. Steel welch plugs are not plain steel, but usually nickel plated to afford the steel some corrosion resistance, but on the inside face (coolant side) of the plug, these suspended particles end up eroding the nickel plating off, and the problems begin. The coolant *has* to have anti-corrosion added to it, and needs to be free of suspended particles, they're capable of damaging/degrading other parts of the system....sand in a washing machine is a good analogy, wrecks the seals =)

    At least wikipedia has it right....



    Steel core plugs fail, due to improper coolant system maintenance more than 90% of the time, and even brass ones fail, especially if there's any rust/scale particles in the coolant flowing past it, because it's softer than steel. Regarding failure of the core plug at the 'back' of the head and hacked access holes in the firewall to get at it...again, proper coolant maintenance helps prevent the failure from the get go, but many old pommy cars with an i6 in them like Humbers and Rovers, actually had an access hatch stamped into the firewall piece, and there was a cover panel held by 4 screws you could remove, and just enough room under the dash to do the job... the procedure was even detailed in the shop manual =) Point is, the engineers of these cars were so absolutely confident that core plug was going to fail (no matter what =) and needed service access, they designed the hatch & cover expressly for that purpose...and, right, that's despite the fact they were already using a thick walled brass welch plug in that location, they were still considered to be 'guaranteed to fail'...for whatever reason (we taint our view with aussie eyes, but that plug may have been prone to push out in colder freezing temps when ppl didn't service their coolant and add the right amount of anti-freeze)...at a time before it was worthwhile removing the cylinder head for service as well....back in the days when one used to provide mechanical services anyhow, and cylinder head reconditioning was considered routine long term engine service.

    2. lsemmens nailed that, labour costs, insurance costs to businesses operating repair businesses, lease/rental of premises, OH&S compliance, wages...and of course, the engines/vehicles are not designed along the old fashioned premise of needing a 'motor mechanic' ; even right down to workshop manuals - you can't buy/keep a copy of every FSM for every car that might turn up at your shop anymore, you have to pay an online subscription fee for to have access to that data.

    Good mate of mine who ran his auto repair shop for more than 4 decades recently closed shop, not only because of the financial headaches (wages etc), but because the cars themselves had surpassed the necessity of his skills -- you don't do tune ups any more - new filters, oil and plugs, check with scanner if car has thrown any fault codes, check fluids & tyres ; he used to slap my shoulder, and say working on cars now, was more up the alley of people like myself with computer skills, not mechanical skills, and because they build the things the way they do, you're spending hours pulling stuff off/putting it back, to get at a 3minute job to replace the faulty part. No more engine/gearbox rebuilds, cheaper to find a good 2ndhand unit and swap it in as the labour cost for an engine swap is more cost effective. I occasionally rebuild automatic transmissions ; I can remember back when the parts cost was considered to be the expensive part of the job, now it's the other way around, the parts are relatively cheap, it's the labour costs that are the killer (not to mention the special tooling needed)...$500 for a 'banner' kit, 2 to 4 times that to pull the box out of the car, refurbish it, and put it back into the car. I blame Mr BiC for inventing the disposable ball point pen =)

    @lsemmens -- about increased efficiency, I tell you it was funny looking at the engine specs for the old 138ci (2.2L) sideplate Holden 6...a whopping 30hp!!..woohoo \o/...

    3. Those old parts supply store days are all but gone ; our local shop in town, knew to keep certain parts in stock, based on the knowledge of what they're customers owned...that closed more than a decade ago. Once upon a time, these shops only had to cater for one of 'the big three' brands sold in AU, and there were 'specialist' parts suppliers that could get you pommy or german car parts...etc. Now it's like holy cow, how many different brands/types of vehicles are there out on the road, each one with a different sized rear wheel bearing? You need more than a supermarket, you'd want something the size of 2 or 3 big Bunnings warehouses joined together...'Auto Parts City'... B^)

    It's all online now - the sales mantra is 'make it as cheap as possible', the parts purchasing process that is. So if you go via a path that doesn't require the cost of a store front, staff, stock, etc et al, you're going to get parts cheaper. Of course, you have to supplement all the 'knowledge' the dealership would provide you at their parts counter -- in real terms, this is often no more complex than knowing your vehicle's M/Y & VIN, and being able to read the part#. The next trick, is recognizing the part you are after, might be the same part as used on other vehicles, anywhere in the world...ie; there are some parts on my Nissan car, I've replaced with parts listed for Isuzu trucks =)

    For OEM jap parts, Amayama () are hard to beat. I imagine there are other specialized parts agents online like Amayama that focus on S.Korean cars? I've no idea...you'd think so though. I've been dealing with Amayama for more than a decade now ...for poop and laughter, you could go down to your local Nissan dealership armed only with a part number, and they'd say $150 + freight, 7-10 days ; Amayama price is $80 (and you spend $20 on expedited shipping) and have it at your door in a few days....(even when the bits are coming from the UAE..impressive logistics =) That's how to do it in the modern day and age -- try to cut out as many 'middlemen' in the sales process (especially dealerships), and use the source Luke -- these guys are the folks supplying the industry of non-brand authorized/sponsored mechanical repair shops..at a global level.


    Regarding the headlight bulb replacement, you don't cite the M/Y of the car, so it's difficult to crosscheck the new generations' capacity to misunderstand what you asked for...ie; they may have (mis)construed you meant front headlight assembly....simply because they don't know what a 'bulb' is, or that headlights even used them...lol...seriously...it's not the first time I've heard of ppl thinking the whole lense/reflector assembly is the 'bulb'...like folks getting 'sealed beam units' confused with bulb & lense/reflector setups.

    You have to be careful when replacing HID bulbs, in that they match the ballast transformer/HV driver requirements. There are tales on various car forums on the 'net, of cheap replacement HID bulbs causing the ballast/driver to fail, which in some cases means a BCM module replacement, and we're starting to talk a lot of money if you burn one of those =) It's just as likely the ballast unit suffered (non terminal) damage when the first bulb failed, and subsequently went on to fail (when it should have been replaced) and who knows... maybe the dealer service schedule for this job, involves replacing bulb & ballast unit as a pair + job time to do that, hey presto, sounds like $350 worth to me.. B)

    Then there's the fine print of warranty conditions...if one's HID ballast unit or BCM module fails under warranty, and in process of replacement they find a non OEM HID bulb fitted...guess what they'll blame? =)

    Actually...and damned if I know why why headlight bulbs made it into a thread about ENGINES ....vehicle lighting itself has to comply with E-Marks, to ensure they produce the stated candela/lumen of light, and that such light is within specified spectrum of light..dig around in ADR 46/00 iirc and you'll find it. Long gone ..well, since 2015 anyhow....are the days where merely stating a filament bulb wattage, and with motorbikes for instance, the minimum separation between indicators and headlight, is determined by how bright (candela) the indicators are. Who knew? =) Point is, vehicle lighting also has evolved, and with HID or LED headlight systems everything is supposed to be certified and tested -- it's no longer as simple as changing a bulb. Even something like changing the headlight lense/reflector has to be E-mark certified to ensure it aims/projects the light source in a defined pattern/spread, and many of the cheap chinese made replacement assemblies, hundreds of dollars cheaper than OEM parts, are technically illegal and defect the vehicle if fitted.

    Next thing you'll hear ppl complain about, are engines designed and built with the timing gear at the back of the motor, regardless of the engineering fact that's often the best place to put it (avoids torsional loading along the crankshaft from front mounted timing gears and cam/valve-train load), but then everything else has changed...camshafts are no longer ground from a solid steel billet -- they're multi-part composite camshafts, where the individual lobes are manufacturered separately from the hollow shafts, which are frozen to shrink enough to allow the lobes to be put on the shaft, and when temperatures equalize the interference fit keeps the lobes in place -- you can't service them or regrind them, once they're stuffed, they're scrap metal ; buy new ones...camshafts are disposable items. Conrods...once upon a time, there was cast or forgded -- now they use powdered metal rods, pressed in a mold and heated till they're cooked.

    Full alloy engines (including block) cannot withstand being overheated - not only can the cylinder head warp, but also the block, plus overheating can soften the alloy...which makes it a throw away and replace item. Once upon a time you could have a bigend bearing fail, and drop the sump and replace it ; now if the same thing happens, the knocking from the failed bearing can cause ovality in the powdered metal conrod end, so that needs replacing as well...supposing the crankshaft journal survived, often they don't.

    Even when considering head bolts/studs...nowdays these are all torque to yield fasteners, not torque to clamping force types like in older engine designs, and if you overheat the new engines these bolts/studs -all- need replacing - they stretch ; once upon a time we'd reuse head bolts - now they're single use items, and there's lots of other fasteners in modern engines similarly disposed. Also, the increasing use of FRP for intake manifolds and other fittings, bend/distort when exposed to excessive heat, and these need to be replaced as well. This is why you just condemn a broken or 'cooked' modern engine - the repair costs exceed replacement cost, be that a new 'crate' engine from the manufacturer (if you could buy one, often they're only made available to authorized dealers), or good 2ndhand -- both are cheaper than checking and rebuilding a 'bad' engine these days, especially if they've been cooked. You can also bet the dealers can buy crate engines at a 'nice price' we mere mortals can only dream of...

    ....it probably looks like this from the dealership service dept. end.... can get crate engine from/with OEM warranty with core exchange for say $7,000, plus 20-25hrs shop time @ $140/hr for the engine swap (and that's not a rabbit out of my hat number, but the book time for engine swap on a Santa-Fe). You're going to face the same engine swap charge, plus the number of hours to pull down, clean and inspect engine, order and wait for parts (vehicle sitting around taking up space you pay for, which with a santa-fe means occupying a hoist because you lift the body off the engine/front subframe assembly to do an engine swap), put it all back together...it's going to be more expensive buying engine parts and charging engine rebuild labour, than it is for a (dealer) to procure and fit an OEM replacement....plus you've got factory warranty, and if the engine screws up again it's the manufacture's fault, not your dealership or workshop procedures to blame..and dammit, that car's been sitting on that lift for a week now, so that's a thousand bucks a day that service bay didn't make any money.... Justifiable denyability is gold ...hehe..

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    Well explained wotnot, having never worked in the motor industry, this was educational.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    LoL...lies!..your armatures have bearings and a pinion! Does it have moving coolant/oil? I am a cheeky bugga


    ..
    We talking about the engine only and the pinion and bearings are integral to that one moving part.
    Strictly speaking the cage in the bearings does move somewhat independently so to split hairs I give you half a point.

    However it is common to integrate a reduction gear and differential with lubricant in the same casing of the engine but functionally they don't belong to the initial source of motive power.

    The motor itself does not require coolant and there are limitations for how long EV motors can run under maximum power. A thermal sensor (not a moving part) will tell the speed controller to limit the power if the engine gets too hot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    Well explained wotnot, having never worked in the motor industry, this was educational.
    Thank you kind sir, when you get old and the rigors of age weigh against you, sharing the knowledge you've gained over one's life time becomes more essential.

    Especially these days with the inet and a million online portals all hosting posts spouting BS, or 'urban lore' that somehow gets transmogrified into cause, explanation or fact.

    Things happen for a reason, there's an underlying cause ; engine manufactures didn't resolve to use steel core plugs and anti-corrosion fluid in the coolant 'by accident'...

    ...Would you like to know more? ...=)

    Originally, they used brass welch plugs in engines....they're concave discs, and look like this ;



    You're actually looking at the outside face of the plug there - they chose brass because it was malleable, and that property of the metal suited the installation process -- stick the plug in the hole convex side out with Stag jointing compound around the edges, and strike it in the middle with a heavy brass hammer, to knock in the 'dome' a a poofteenth of a thou, which would spread the edge of the disc and jam it in the hole in the block.

    If that sounds dodgy as all buggery, remember we're talking the 1950's and before, and we were yet to be using 'high pressure' cooling systems...and....and this is a bit like air crash investigations...'it's always a chain of events' ... they didn't need pressurized cooling systems, until they started getting greater efficiency/power out of the engines, which produced more waste heat, and the easiest way to deal with things is to pressurize your water cooling system ; works in PWR reactors, bound to work in a car engine...however these disc shaped welch plugs weren't very good at holding back pressure.

    So they moved to the more familiar cap style core plug...



    The increased area of the wide flange, ensures a tight enough frictional inference fit to hold a few bar of pressure.

    Then it's like, oh damn we need a better water pump seal to hold that pressure, and now a working radiator is -really- important, and because we're making more power, we can't really tolerate rust/scale buildup around the cylinders, so we need to add soluble oil, which will help that new pump seal as well....then, like you point out, engines became more and more reliable, and brass parts were going through more and more heat cycles (heat contraction/expansion... cast iron does this half as much compared to brass), and they moved to using steel plus because it was now a more resilient choice, especially with corrosion inhibitor in the coolant...that was really the only drawback steel core plugs had - susceptibility to damage by contact with a hot Lewis acid (tap water =)

    I suppose I should mention you never ever put brass <anything> fittings, in aluminium alloy castings/parts....they antagonize each other 8)

    I've seen a few blokes over the years, use threaded core plugs...not to hold coolant pressure, but to increase the strength of the engine block wall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lsemmens View Post
    ... Another thing worth considering, too, is that old cars used to be considered high mileage at 80,000 miles whereas modern cars often run 2 or three times that before they are considered High mileage units. I'm pushing 150k miles in my current car and expect to have it for another 60 off K miles before I would even consider a replacement and by that, I do mean MILES, not kilometres.
    Do you also pay for the fuel in POUNDS
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    No, we are totally metricated here.We are currently sitting at around $1.60 per litre give or take about 30c, with the "discount" cycle. I could have used Kilometres but those 'muricans may not usnderstand that, so, I converted it all.
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    I'm still waiting on the M/Y of the Hyundai that they quoted $350 for a replacement headlight 'globe' =)

    I wanna check with my local Hyundai dealer ... they don't wear suits B)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    I'm still waiting on the M/Y of the Hyundai that they quoted $350 for a replacement headlight 'globe' =)

    I wanna check with my local Hyundai dealer ... they don't wear suits B)
    Oem hid globes are expensive....

    Jeep/Chrysler ones are at least that much.....

    usages.kangaroos.sound

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    Quote Originally Posted by hoe View Post
    Oem hid globes are expensive....

    Jeep/Chrysler ones are at least that much.....

    Yeah, I know...mate has a new Jeep...some of their 'consumable' parts prices are over the top...

    ....not seeing it in the Hyundai parts cataledog tho' ...really need M/Y and trim...

    edit: No I don't, I found it...hyundai/kia part# 1864725012 ...list price AU$335.60... type D5S...ballast/driver incorporated with bulb assembly. (these are the aftermarket ones I mentioned before that can kill your BCM, because you're not just buying a cheap chinese made bulb, but also the ballast/driver electronics). Can't find any of these on ebay for $50/pair as the OP claims though, what I can find is around $50-100 a pop, out of china, not E-mark certified...and all 'faked' philips (genuine philips are up around $150/unit)...BCM is 7grand (!)...
    Last edited by wotnot; 05-02-22 at 12:55 PM.

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    I can see where the OP is coming from, however, a good home mechanic can still source parts via the internet, can still diagnose most of these new vehicles using a cheap OBD11 diagnostic tool & perform your own repairs.

    My recent experience with my wife's '07 Hilux V6 petrol 1GR-FE engine.
    Driving home from town the CEL (check engine light) comes on the dash, car still running OK, ignored it & got home OK.
    as I already had an ELM327 OBD11 adaptor & diagnostic programme Torque on my phone, cheap simple diagnostic solution BTW. I plugged the ELM in to the diagnostic port below the steering wheel, checked for error codes & one popped up detailing what sensor & the sensor's location & fault.

    Bank 2 sensor 1 is the location, which interprets as, passenger side bank with #2 cylinder in the bank & sensor 1 is the forward sensor before the catalytic converter.
    So I googled the error & found it common for these A/F o2 Lambda sensors to fail, they are supposed to be replaced every 10 years or 100,000km or something similar. As the Hilux has 137,000 km on the clock & 14 years of service by me, I guess it was due to be replaced anyway.
    Now as it's a V6 it is advised to replace them in pairs, so found an aftermarket sensor supplier in West Oz on ebay (Auto Sensors Australia) & ordered 2 for $230 delivered. OEM Toyota Denso parts are $350 each!
    Had a look at how they are positioned & realized I didn't have the tools to get them out. Ordered a set of Lambda sensor tools from supercheap auto online store, $75 including freight. I really needed this tool set.
    Had the tools within a week & the sensors arrived a few days later.

    Now, managed to unclip the wiring at back of engine, needed mirror on extension to find the wiring harness plug & location of clip, so I could get my hand in there & release it by feel. Then after getting the right length of socket bars to reach the extraction tool, the faulty sensor came loose with little effort, despite the awkward position (rear of exhaust header toward rear of engine bay, pointing inwards & back toward the fire wall), then I turned it the rest of the way out by hand.
    Cool, but unfortunately the other side was even more difficult to get to with the brake MC & pipes in the way & to top it off was seized in.
    Struggled for an hour to get enough leverage & freeze & release spray on it to get it to budge an 1/8th of a turn, but it was still fighting the seized threads. More force only made more friction & harder to move, so resorted to using enough pressure on a long socket bar to move it an 1/8 of a turn at a time then rocking it back each & every time using more freeze & release spray & some wd40 as alternative, both had the same effect. The net result wat the rocking back & forth loosened the threads quite substantially to facilitate more than 1/8 turns progressing to quarter turns which is all the room there was to move the tool.
    3 sessions over 2 days = 5 hours to remove the sensor. Had to stop every couple of hours as I was getting hot & impatient.
    This last bit is where if you had to pay a mechanic to extract that at $150 an hour, you would not believe him, right. I used this to help keep me going, knowing that no matter who was doing this, it was going to take hours of work, so I might as well earn the money myself.
    The alternative would have been to remove the header pipe which I determined was an equally difficult job, as there was still going to be a seized sensor in it that had to be patiently removed, albeit in a more accessible position. Then there could have been just as much drama getting the header bolts undone..
    Good thing is I managed to salvage the header & although I didn't have a thread tap that I could get in the hole, I managed to use the failed sensor with the good thread to repair the burred header thread, by inserting straight & rocking it in & out slowly so as not get friction heat, took about an hour with heaps of wd40 to lubricate. After the second time in & out I could screw it in by hand.
    Cleaned off all the spray residues.
    The new sensor was a little tight even with the anti-seize paste on it, but it went in. Other one was a breeze.
    Cleared the fault code from the ECU with the Torque app & started the engine, CEL gone out & no more detectable errors.

    I hate to think what a dealership would have charged for the job, they probably would have replaced the header pipe with Cat at a ridiculous price of the part, plus labour. I'd say around $3k.
    All up I got it done for $300 & a bit of blood sweat & tears.
    Last edited by Tiny; 05-02-22 at 04:13 PM.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Now as it's a V6 it is advised to replace them in pairs, so found an aftermarket sensor supplier in West Oz & ordered 2 for $230. OEM Toyota Denso parts are $350 each!
    $411 each at SCA =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    $411 each at SCA =)
    Lol, the ones that came from Auto Sensors Australia look identical in construction & quality as the OEM's I removed. Just missing the brand stamp.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny View Post
    Lol, the ones that came from Auto Sensors Australia look identical in construction & quality as the OEM's I removed. Just missing the brand stamp.
    Haha...in the US you have a choice, from cheap and nasty through to certified Bosch...


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    Quote Originally Posted by wotnot View Post
    Haha...in the US you have a choice, from cheap and nasty through to certified Bosch...
    Yes the same choices here on ebay, as I was looking, cheep & nasty direct from china for $30 each increasing price depending on quality up to the genuine items for $300+.
    Genuine Part number: 89467-71020

    ASA has good range of sensors & injectors. I'll use them again.
    Sensors came well packaged including anti-seize paste on threads with plastic cap retaining the paste on the threads.
    Cheers, Tiny
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    Yeah, ASA aren't bad..bought from them before...btw, that list above I grabbed from rockauto...in seppoland they used the same sensor in a 2007 4.7l V8 Sequoia =)

    This is the other, other issue of course ~ the engineering used in modern cars, is getting to the point where the DIY owner shouldn't be undertaking routine service themselves, because the lure of (saving) money blinds their common sense -- some of us, you included, know to look at all the options, pick a mid-priced 'known' brand naming, do a quick search to see if there's complaints/reviews..all the normal stuff. You can still get burnt, when sensor you bought might fail inside 2years, one just never knows.

    Or like when those gen2 BT-50/Rangers came out with the MZ-CD diesel, and every mug&singlet who'd been doing their own oil changes for years and years and years, discovered you don't follow that procedure changing the oil in these engines.

    When I mentioned above about fake Philips HID bulb units, some of the facts behind that are pretty mind blowing..like..ie; what possible harm could come from changing out a $300 OEM headlight bulb, with a cheap knockoff? I mean, apart from frying the BCM module it's plugged into...Philips call it the 'Xenon HID Anti-Counterfeit Program' and there's a website you can go to to enter box codes and verify QR, holographic seals, the whole works. You think it's overkill, until you read the bit about the HID bulb itself has 30bar of gas pressure in it when running, and ppl reporting incidents of these exploding with enough bang, it triggers the airbags...goodgrief...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    We talking about the engine only and the pinion and bearings are integral to that one moving part.
    Strictly speaking the cage in the bearings does move somewhat independently so to split hairs I give you half a point.

    However it is common to integrate a reduction gear and differential with lubricant in the same casing of the engine but functionally they don't belong to the initial source of motive power.

    The motor itself does not require coolant and there are limitations for how long EV motors can run under maximum power. A thermal sensor (not a moving part) will tell the speed controller to limit the power if the engine gets too hot.
    Hi all,

    In response to EV enthusiasts on this forum, you may well be interested in the following series "Vintage Voltage" turning normal (petrol) cars electric.

    Luv and Kisses from Ma

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    You wipe your bum after each crap, why don't you clean your teeth after every meal?

    There is no shame in being uneducated nor in being stupid.
    The true shame lies in knowing that you are and doing nothing about it.

    Only the living worry about dying.

    To the tobacco addicts - Smoke more and die sooner, so I can breathe fresh air. Thank you.

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