Music Notes!! A pretty Global language!!

[Ah-Those-Old-Days!]

Being a 'Muso', (Guitar & other instruments), it's always amazed me what just 8 notes, (& 5 Sharps/Flats) can signify!!
The English Alphabet has 26 letters, but with just the above, virtually every single song/tune Globally, from whatever 'genera'
of music from Pop songs, to Classical etc., in their millions, consists of just those few notes in various/varying orders!!
And it amazes me how particular 'Sequences' can be Copyrighted with only those few to work with. Is someone 'copying' a
whole Tune, or just the Chorus/Interlude, or a particular 'Riff'... What about just a repeated 'Bar' of 4 notes!!! Ppfftt...

All that aside, over the years, (decades!), I've played at many concerts & festivals, (I'm mainly a 'Folkie'), and have often sat
down with various other players from many countries, that don't even speak English... But somehow we just 'Make-Music' !!
We may have never heard the 'tune' before, but we understand how music 'works', and we know the Key, and after even just
a few Bars we all get the Gist of what it's about including standard progressions, and we are shortly all playing it !!!

Once you are able to grasp what happens musically, it's like a 'Universal Language', and no words need to be spoken!...

[Uncle Fester]

Once you are able to grasp what happens musically, it's like a 'Universal Language', and no words need to be spoken!...

Same could be said for mathematics, actually I would go further and say UNIVERSAL as in communication with extraterrestrials.

Music and maths may seem a bit far apart for some but actually they are not. It is all about harmonics and Fourier analysis, very mathematical!

The first synthesiser, the church organ is all about adding harmonics, again very mathematical and the higher these harmonics go the more you will find the intervals used in the actual music itself that defines chords and harmonies that we find appealing to hear.

Of course there is also mathematics involved to create any instrument although a lot was initially achieved with trial and error.

So just like binary is universal, I would expect also music on other worlds to be not so much different either.

That said I can't read note music, more out of protest because my father(a professional musician) forced me to play music as a child, the clarinet. I memorised it when he played it, then I pretended to read it, but if I didn't get it right, he got furious that I couldn't read what was in front of me. Punishment was then imminent.
Luckily he mostly let me alone with the piano that I usually played when nobody was home. I never liked it when somebody listened to me.

Things changed when I got in high school and met the right guys. I ended up playing for 10 years in a hard and heavy band in Germany, touring and made an Album but that ended in 1990.
I was more interested in the structure of music, composing, making repairing and improving instruments and creating sounds, rather than performing.
These days I can only play if the sound of what I am playing turns me on then I just improvise, yeah and after downing a few beers.
I can rarely remember what I played the next day and can not repeat it.
I don't play other people's music, although I can quickly nut most of it out on a keyboard and I only like instrumentals not vocals unless sung in awesome harmony.
As a kid I liked to confuse people when I said I am an AC/DC addict who likes Simon and Garfunkel.

Today there is only focus on singers and I find the music that is 'offered' today mostly an abomination.

[Ah-Those-Old-Days!]

I LOVED everything you said "Uncle Fester", but will respond properly tomorrow, after a nap that I need!!
However... in the interim, I MUST say/agree that 'Music' is VERY Mathematical!!!

[Ah-Those-Old-Days!]

Same could be said for mathematics, actually I would go further and say UNIVERSAL as in communication with extraterrestrials.
Music and maths may seem a bit far apart for some but actually they are not. It is all about harmonics and Fourier analysis, very mathematical!
The first synthesiser, the church organ is all about adding harmonics, again very mathematical and the higher these harmonics go the more you will find the intervals
used in the actual music itself that defines chords and harmonies that we find appealing to hear.

Of course there is also mathematics involved to create any instrument although a lot was initially achieved with trial and error.

So just like binary is universal, I would expect also music on other worlds to be not so much different either.

That said I can't read note music, more out of protest because my father(a professional musician) forced me to play music as a child, the clarinet. I memorised it when he played it, then I pretended to read it, but if I didn't get it right, he got furious that I couldn't read what was in front of me. Punishment was then imminent.
Luckily he mostly let me alone with the piano that I usually played when nobody was home. I never liked it when somebody listened to me.

Things changed when I got in high school and met the right guys. I ended up playing for 10 years in a hard and heavy band in Germany, touring and made an Album but that ended in 1990.
I was more interested in the structure of music, composing, making repairing and improving instruments and creating sounds, rather than performing.
These days I can only play if the sound of what I am playing turns me on then I just improvise, yeah and after downing a few beers.
I can rarely remember what I played the next day and can not repeat it.
I don't play other people's music, although I can quickly nut most of it out on a keyboard and I only like instrumentals not vocals unless sung in awesome harmony.
As a kid I liked to confuse people when I said I am an AC/DC addict who likes Simon and Garfunkel.
Today there is only focus on singers and I find the music that is 'offered' today mostly an abomination.

Thought I would respond as I said I would mate!!
Firstly, you spoke of communication with Extraterrestrials... I've always hoped that 'they' would grasp Music too, & maybe it is even part of their language!!
Slightly aside from that, I remember, and loved!, the Carl Sagan fictional book called "Contact". Where-in he explains in detail how the 1st level of 'signals'
could be how to interpret/learn an understanding both ways!! Too much to explain here, but certainly plausible and informative!!

You then talked about... It is all about harmonics and Fourier analysis, very mathematical!
You are so right. Even simplistically looking at the likes of the 'Circle Of Fifths', and the mathematical reduction of spaces of frets on a Guitar etc., such that
the 12th fret, (see circle of 5ths), is one Octave higher, and each halving of length is an Octave shift... Not to mention the '1st, 4th, 5th' rule pertaining to
the general progression of typical 'sounds' for virtually any tunes/songs Chords. (Eg: Key of 'C', main chords are C, F, G etc). A 'relative minor is minus 2 notes
and call it a minor!! (For C chord, it is an Am, and for G chord, it is an Em etc etc). Diagnosing the notes/frequencies, it's just basic maths!!!

You liked it when people could not hear you!! I've always been the same, and would have my most 'D&M' (Deep & Meaningful), moments when I was only
amusing myself. I never realized that what one plays might actually 'entertain' others??!! Then much later, I was introduced to the 'Folk' scene, and then
found myself playing with say 12-15 others... maybe 5 guitars, 3 violins, 3 flutes, Banjos & Mandolins etc etc... I felt like I belonged!!
Since then, I moved to front-row, and enjoy the camaraderie as well as the visitors that we would enjoy, & always got their kids to play with us for fun...

Re: The last few words/times I made 'Bold' from your reply...
Since moving to WA, (Bunbury actually), I have lost contact with the vast majority of the people & events that I was most spoilt with back in Adelaide!!
So MY appreciation for music now, is listening to & playing along with many such 'Oldies' & Folkie music on the likes of YouTube' !!!
I thought I better say NOW, that I do not sing!! Well... not any more... I used to be paid 50c back in about 1965's or something!! to sing with the Church
organist at Weddings!!! (Until my voice broke hahahaha...). Now I JUST accompany!!

ANYWAY, in regards to 'todays' abominations....
When ever something is playing, I swear I can hear every note/chord etc...and play accordingly...
However, the other end of the spectrum, regarding Voices, sometimes not an INSTRUMENT needs to accompany it!!
Yes, you may have guessed it, called Acapella . One of the tunes/songs I used to love playing, is called "The Parting Glass".
Here is a totally Acapella version that I also love!!!!!!
No instrumentation, but just beautiful harmonies

[Uncle Fester]

@Ah-Those-Old-Day, looks like we are in perfect harmony from your response

In regards to not wanting someone listening to me playing, nothing has changed today. Thanks Sennheiser for all the quality headphones I now have.
Apart from the fact that I am totally rusty if I pick up an instrument and the consequent embarrassment, I always felt pressured to play what the listener wants to hear and not what I want to play, well not only felt that, I usually WAS pressured.
I also can not be pressured into being creative, some people actually need that pressure but me not.
It turns me totally off when somebody tells me to play this or that 'song' after they heard I play an instrument. The suggestions are almost always pop rubbish and they all expect you to sing too ...at least here in Australia.
So I try to conceal the fact of my past musicality with close encounters and I usually manage to hide from these people too.


@Enf, as an Alien I would have picked German as it is the most logical of the languages I am aware of, always spoken the way it is written.
Unfortunately their sensors are far more likely to pick up rap before anything else and the Aliens will think the twisted form of English used there is the common denominator for communication on this planet.

[enf]

Been watching Close Encounters Fester....

.................................................. ......

Today there is only focus on singers and I find the music that is 'offered' today mostly an abomination.

Amen to that....although thres nothing wrong with singers if they can actually sing. My parents listened to real singers. It wasn't my cup of tea, but they were really good.

ffs, some of the sh!t that my children listen to is numbing.

[lsemmens]

Agree with all of the above. I've been a muso (guitar and bass) for most of my life. I look back and wish that, as a kid I was forced to learn the piano although I can read music and know my way around a piano, I can't play it. I come from a line of concert pianists. I'm also stroppy in that, although I know all the theory and progressions et al. I still need a chart, keyboard or other instrument to follow. (i.e. read). My ear is atrocious.

[Uncle Fester]

I still need a chart, keyboard or other instrument to follow. (i.e. read). My ear is atrocious.

My timing is atrocious and I can't follow anyone.
However with the band it worked sort of OK because the bass player was like a glue between me and the drummer.

Most embarrassing when I had to record single tracks in a studio.
Most of the time I played riffs on the guitar, little melody lines where you could hide small timing errors but when the studio asked me to play an underlying rhythm guitar in Malcom Young style, I folded.
Don't know how many takes it took until I get that bloody timing right.

I even had and still have a drum kit at home where I nutted out reasonably cool solos but this never helped much with my timing.

I was much more comfortable behind the mixing pad or buried inside a 24-channel digital tape machine servicing it, rather than in front of a microphone when that scary red light is on.

[trash]

Music and Maths.

Lets just stick with a simple two crotchets and one octave. There are 12 notes in an octave. That gives us 144 combinations with just two simple notes.
Lets expand this to a 4/4 bar. Four simple notes, one octave gives us 20736 combinations.

Lets try four bars, two octaves and a choice of crotchets, quavers, minums and semis.
Gives is something like (6x20)^16 = more combinations of notes in four bars then there are stars in the universe.

That's a rather vague description because there are even more possible combinations than the simplistic example I used, but as we know not all of them are winning combinations.
Some sound like a Madonna remix or a B side Big Audio Dynamic single. (craptacular).

[Uncle Fester]

Your maths would go ballistic when you would include all my bending, hammer-ons, attacks, slurs, flageolets... simply put, all the expressions that differ a human from a computer in playing an instrument.
Yes I can can program a computer to do all that too(with a lot of work) but it will never be as spontaneous and natural as a human can play.

My favourite term in music notation is "ad lib." which for me means "knock yourself out"

[Ah-Those-Old-Days!]

Your maths would go ballistic when you would include all my bending, hammer-ons, attacks, slurs, flageolets... simply put, all the expressions that differ a human from a computer in playing an instrument.
Yes I can can program a computer to do all that too(with a lot of work) but it will never be as spontaneous and natural as a human can play.
My favourite term in music notation is "ad lib." which for me means "knock yourself out"

Very true!!
In my 1st statement in this post, I also deliberately left out 'Japanese' music!!, which can often use frequencies
totally out of line with general music notation, regarding note progressions!!

[enf]

What a BOB. If they can cross the f*cking galaxy, I'm sure that English would be within their grasp.

Then we can get them into Clapton and real music before the modern rap bred dickheads get a look in.

(Sorry...jugs still boiling..)

[Ah-Those-Old-Days!]

What a BOB. If they can cross the f*cking galaxy, I'm sure that English would be within their grasp.

Then we can get them into Clapton and real music before the modern rap bred dickheads get a look in.

(Sorry...jugs still boiling..)

Dear 'enf'... My brain does flips when I read some of your replies?? such that I just don't understand mate.
This post did not start as a confluence of like-minded people contemplating proof of extraterrestrials, but simply stating
as a mere 'side-note' that equally 'intelligent' beings May or may not, include something like 'Music' in their wealth of
understanding/knowledge, as WE mere Earthlings seem to hold it relative/pertain-able to Intelligence, as we know/think it.

'Granted', 'RAP' is not something that I would consider being 'Music', by any stretch of the imagination. However, there are
certain 'Musical Progressions' that MOST Humans would agree can be/are 'pleasing to the Ear. I FULLY understand that some
of these, are not 'Party-Music', but should be taken as they are intended... The BEST example that I can give here, is this
piece that is referred to simply as the "Humming Chorus". It is written by...

Giacomo Puccini: "Coro a bocca chiusa" (Humming Chorus) from Madame Butterfly

Some songs/tunes need nothing else, to get the message across..
What myself & uncle Fester were getting across, was the sentiment, with/without the 'notes'...
And the "Sorry, Jugs still boiling" was totally lost on me????? Why are you so angry??????

[enf]

Dear 'enf'... My brain does flips when I read some of your replies?? such that I just don't understand mate.
This post did not start as a confluence of like-minded people contemplating proof of extraterrestrials, but simply stating
as a mere 'side-note' that equally 'intelligent' beings May or may not, include something like 'Music' in their wealth of
understanding/knowledge, as WE mere Earthlings seem to hold it relative/pertain-able to Intelligence, as we know/think it.

'Granted', 'RAP' is not something that I would consider being 'Music', by any stretch of the imagination. However, there are
certain 'Musical Progressions' that MOST Humans would agree can be/are 'pleasing to the Ear. I FULLY understand that some
of these, are not 'Party-Music', but should be taken as they are intended... The BEST example that I can give here, is this
piece that is referred to simply as the "Humming Chorus". It is written by...

Giacomo Puccini: "Coro a bocca chiusa" (Humming Chorus) from Madame Butterfly

Some songs/tunes need nothing else, to get the message across..
What myself & uncle Fester were getting across, was the sentiment, with/without the 'notes'...
And the "Sorry, Jugs still boiling" was totally lost on me????? Why are you so angry??????

WOW...ummmm....now THATS what I would term "overthinking".

Look......to me, music is an individual and aquired taste. You like it or you don't. I don't play music, I can't read music, and I have no desire to. I played a little blues harmonica when I was young, but when I left Freo in the early 70's I left the harps behind. My younger brother took them up and he now DOES play music and has travelled the world attending festivals and has played at various concerts with oodles of local groups.

The creation of all kinds of music and the artistic ability and skill of the relevant artists to produce it impresses me no end, but I still regard most of it as sh!t that I wouldn't listen to given a choice. My musical tastes are ingrained in the blues and rock scene from the late 60s to the late 80s. Thats just what I like and I make no apologies for that at all.

The oft used assumtion that music is some kind of universal language seems a stretch to me. It may be for some humans, but I would argue that extraterrestrials (if they even exist) may not get it at all. What if first contact is with a species that appreciates silence and regards sound as an egregious insult? All that fancy Close Encounters stuff may just be like pushing Putins buttons.

As for the jug boiled statement, I was just alluding to the fact that I hadn't even had a morning coffee yet and was a tad grumpy. Now, to the members of the species that I am familiar with THAT is a universal language.

Oh, I seldom get angry about much at all, but my level of pissedoffness certainly varies....

[Al Bundy]

...The oft used assumtion that music is some kind of universal language seems a stretch to me. It may be for some humans, but I would argue that extraterrestrials (if they even exist) may not get it at all. What if first contact is with a species that appreciates silence and regards sound as an egregious insult?....

Uh oh, now you have pushed nomeat's sorry Fester's buttons hes gonna come gunning for you now.... or maybe its just me he has the hard on for ???

[Uncle Fester]

My musical tastes are ingrained in the blues and rock scene from the late 60s to the late 80s. Thats just what I like and I make no apologies for that at all.

Ditto, although I go a bit further back as Beethoven was the creator of hard rock, even metal. Maybe because he was rather deaf at later age and he felt the vibrations better when he hit hard on the keys.

Blues is about the only thing I can still play reasonably well, no matter on what instrument, it is something that you don't need to practice or focus on, it just flows out of you, although best after a few beers.

Looks like Al Bundy seems to have lost the plot. Good luck to you mate.

[Al Bundy]

...Looks like Al Bundy seems to have lost the plot....

Funny, I was going to say the same thing about you, but cant be bothered wasting my time...

[trash]

What a BOB. If they can cross the f*cking galaxy, I'm sure that English would be within their grasp.

If they can cross the galaxy, any you have to say is pointless.

So traveling aliens is a but unrealistic. If we're just talking SETI/METI. Think of it like this. Swing the dish around and find a transponder with a foreign language you know nothing about and learn that language from just watching that channel. It's going to take you some time to get the hang of it.


Of course if you're an invading alien force and you're doing some recon by watching Earth's TV signals, you're going to be making a hard decision about your next move. Are these creatures so stupid we could just take their planet OR are they so stupid that invading might be dangerous because there is no telling what they might be capable of when threatened.

[lsemmens]

Can you imagine what the Aliens would make of us considering the cr*p that is broadcast on the airwaves every second of the the day. "Ways of our Wives", "As the stomach turns", "Doctor Phil", and so on.........

[Uncle Fester]

Can you imagine what the Aliens would make of us considering the cr*p that is broadcast on the airwaves every second of the the day. "Ways of our Wives", "As the stomach turns", "Doctor Phil", and so on.........

I can only hope they arrive without prejudice otherwise the only logical solution is to destroy us.
Maybe the show "Resident Alien" might lighten their mood somewhat and have a little sympathy for the lost human race ...before they destroy us.