Weird convergence issue with component connection on Palsonic CRT

[Supernaut]

Bit of a long shot with such old technology but I got a CRT to play retro game systems on and I'm having a weird colour convergence issue that only affects the component input. The TV is a Palsonic 5130GM, the model of the tube is a SEG-HITACHI A51JSY63X13 (CR) and for what it's worth the geometry is a little off particular with H position in composite but is actually perfect on component. I also have not been able to track down a service manual or a service menu for it.

I have some pics here:








This is a shot from the same game but with composite for a comparison:



Does anyone know what could be causing this?

[wotnot]

That's reasonably bizarre, but I've seen similar when trying to get Amiga video output to play nicely with various VDUs (not just CRT)....possibly my first 'sanity' check, would be to connect a different device's component output to the unit, and see if the problem persists/is the same. You wouldn't happen to have video output specs on whatever you're running these games on?

As for a service manual, a palsonic probably isn't --- have a look around and see if you can identify the chassis used ; going by the CRT part# it could be something like this ->

This looks like signal input processing, not a convergence issue with the set itself...ie; if you put an Amiga into an interlaced video mode, stuff like this happens

[Supernaut]

That's reasonably bizarre, but I've seen similar when trying to get Amiga video output to play nicely with various VDUs (not just CRT)....possibly my first 'sanity' check, would be to connect a different device's component output to the unit, and see if the problem persists/is the same. You wouldn't happen to have video output specs on whatever you're running these games on?

As for a service manual, a palsonic probably isn't --- have a look around and see if you can identify the chassis used ; going by the CRT part# it could be something like this ->

This looks like signal input processing, not a convergence issue with the set itself...ie; if you put an Amiga into an interlaced video mode, stuff like this happens

Thanks for the reply. It's a Wii with a Wii specific component cable straight into the TV. It looks fine plugged into my HDTV.

I also tried a PS3 with component and got the exact same issues. The wii is running 576i. 480p just gave me a bunch of garbage on screen, which I understand is normal for most CRTs.

Also thanks, I'll check out that manual. I did open it up but couldn't find anything that would identify the chassis but I realise now that it's all back together I didn't look underneath the board, so might be worth having another look.

[wotnot]

What res was the PS3 running that reproduced the problem?

[Supernaut]

The only resolution I can get the ps3 to run on is 576i and it had the same issue. I've tried both 480i and 576i on the Wii and both have the same issue. I'll be getting a ps2 in a week or so but currently those are the only 2 devices I have with component connections atm.

Also fwiw I had a look at that service manual you linked me and unfortunately my remote doesn't have a lot of those buttons so no go there. I'll have to have another look soon to see if I can find the chassis number.

[wotnot]

Yeah, ok...I'm not overly familiar with the Wii but understand the PS3 video reasonably well ~ the CRT set won't do 480P, we'll take that as a given.

My ~guess~ is the CRT set is working fine ~ possibly the only way to quickly check, is find an older DVD/VCR player with component out ...

I think what you're seeing, is the YUV demuxer not stripping out the timing component correctly...ie; I presume the blue colourspace is roughly correct, but the R/G components display a delayed timing ...it really depends on where the set's demuxer is looking for timing...ie; just off the Y line, or overlapped on the R/B space...

Don't judge a set by it's remote control functions -- the 'cheap' range chassis have a lot of 'no stuff' without extra features the highend range model has (because they'd stuffed all these extra components in the highend build)...same chassis/mainboard tho most of the time...SEG-Hitachi however is based in CN...ymmv...

edit: what's the part number on the signal processing chip (main IC) in the CRT set...that may lend a clue

[Supernaut]

Yeah, ok...I'm not overly familiar with the Wii but understand the PS3 video reasonably well ~ the CRT set won't do 480P, we'll take that as a given.

My ~guess~ is the CRT set is working fine ~ possibly the only way to quickly check, is find an older DVD/VCR player with component out ...

I think what you're seeing, is the YUV demuxer not stripping out the timing component correctly...ie; I presume the blue colourspace is roughly correct, but the R/G components display a delayed timing ...it really depends on where the set's demuxer is looking for timing...ie; just off the Y line, or overlapped on the R/B space...

Don't judge a set by it's remote control functions -- the 'cheap' range chassis have a lot of 'no stuff' without extra features the highend range model has (because they'd stuffed all these extra components in the highend build)...same chassis/mainboard tho most of the time...SEG-Hitachi however is based in CN...ymmv...

edit: what's the part number on the signal processing chip (main IC) in the CRT set...that may lend a clue

Oh interesting, so how would I fix that? I'll open up the TV sometime this week and have another look for the chassis number in the hope the service menu can help.

[wotnot]

Oh interesting, so how would I fix that? I'll open up the TV sometime this week and have another look for the chassis number in the hope the service menu can help.

Be sure to get the signal processor IC number ; with a datasheet for that, it'll help

[Supernaut]

Be sure to get the signal processor IC number ; with a datasheet for that, it'll help

So I'm pretty sure I've got that number. It was very hard to read and I couldn't even get a clear photo of it, but the number was M61264. I also got a bunch of other IC numbers:

NS205M
k2959m
24LC088
stv9302a
an7552n (I think this is just an audio amplifier)
m37160m8

[hoe]

Email jomac amusements, joey is the guru on such matters.......

Sent from my CPH2305 using Tapatalk

[wotnot]

Ugh...damn CN rubbish ...one last question: in the teevee menus, what colorsys is selected?

[Supernaut]

Ugh...damn CN rubbish ...one last question: in the teevee menus, what colorsys is selected?

Yeah, I'm wondering if it's time to just enjoy it with composite until I can find something better that takes component.

Colorsys is set to auto. If I set it to PAL the issue is still there but the colours get duller. There's also N358 and N443. I can't tell the difference between those.

[wotnot]

Yeah, I'm wondering if it's time to just enjoy it with composite until I can find something better that takes component.

Colorsys is set to auto. If I set it to PAL the issue is still there but the colours get duller. There's also N358 and N443. I can't tell the difference between those.

N358 and N443 are . M61264 is the video processor...proprietary, made in CN, and one of 6 different variants (NTSC/PAL/SECAM and/or subdivided into PAL B, G, D, K, I...and/or reduced feature set, which is the more likely answer..ie; your set doesn't have RGB in) ...this allowed the manufacturer to target specific countries with the same teevee chassis -- the 5130GM was specifically targeted to the AU market ; it is not an EDTV. As such the M6126x datasheet is expurgated down to 2 pages, and about as useful as tits on a bull =) I bet the N358/443 functionality is nobbled and does nothing, and merely appears because they didn't want to redo the menus.

I bet it works on component video out of a DVD (the digital video data is down-scaled & converted to suit PAL sets) - component output from ps3/wii don't get treated like this. There are SCART to YUV/RGB out there, but I've not tried them (might improve the Wii video)...won't help with the PS3 tho'.

[Supernaut]

N358 and N443 are . M61264 is the video processor...proprietary, made in CN, and one of 6 different variants (NTSC/PAL/SECAM and/or subdivided into PAL B, G, D, K, I...and/or reduced feature set, which is the more likely answer..ie; your set doesn't have RGB in) ...this allowed the manufacturer to target specific countries with the same teevee chassis -- the 5130GM was specifically targeted to the AU market ; it is not an EDTV. As such the M6126x datasheet is expurgated down to 2 pages, and about as useful as tits on a bull =) I bet the N358/443 functionality is nobbled and does nothing, and merely appears because they didn't want to redo the menus.

I bet it works on component video out of a DVD (the digital video data is down-scaled & converted to suit PAL sets) - component output from ps3/wii don't get treated like this. There are SCART to YUV/RGB out there, but I've not tried them (might improve the Wii video)...won't help with the PS3 tho'.

Thanks so much for your help, I really appreciate it. I'll be getting a PS2 quite soon so will see what that looks like and move the Wii and PS3 back to the LED in the living room. Is this going to be a common issue with component in CRTs? I'm going to keep looking for something a bit better, maybe a Trinitron if I'm lucky.

[wotnot]

Yeah...if the VDU can't do 480P it's a problem ...you can read from the wikipedia page which is a good brief of it. I should have mentioned above it's the DVD players that did the necessary signal conversion internally, before passing the signals out the connection jacks. EDTV with CRT displays are rare these days -- the world went flat panels and HDTV just after they appeared. You do see them for sale occasionally like .

[Supernaut]

I'm not too worried about doing 480p. I can make the Wii do 576i 50hz or 480i 60hz as well and they both have the issue. 480p doesn't work at all. I'd be happy with 480i if it didn't have the colour issue.

So is the issue that the Wii is putting out RGB and not YUV regardless of resolution?

[wotnot]

With CRT. be VERY WORRIED if the set can't do 480P....(with Amigas all you're interested in is whether the set has SCART input to accept RGBs) ; the CRT component of the set is fixed frequency doing PAL...(in computer monitor terms a fixed-sync versus a multisync) ...I'm a few pixels right on the yellow start line, but from your images above...



....they're on the same timebase -- the red & green components (which give yellow), are all moved and equal amount to the right, relative to the blue/gray/black components.

Now...the only place that can happen, is in the M61264 video processor, but because I can't find a datasheet for it (which, if it exists, will be in chinese) and only that of of the base IC design with a (as opposed to the sort of datasheet for a similar western market equivalent like series), nobody can really explain just wtf or why it's doing that...ie; is it at the programmable interface level or at a chip design limitation level (or even CRT driver hardware limitation), but for whatever reason in the real world relative to CRT technology, it's firing the red and green guns too early/late =) I know I'll be reiterating here, but if it were me I'd be straight on down to cashies to buy a dvd player or some cheap with component out, -just- to prove or disprove the case you could use (or need to use) a M61264 that works with CAV (component analog video) and not digital component video conversion...I never really thought about it...probably because Amigas were computers not consoles, the former targets monitors, the latter teevees....here with M61264 you'd suspect the RGB matrix and/or Y signal line processing being at the bottom of this..

...in a way ExtendedDefinitionTV -is- 480P ....you look at the block diagram for M61264 ; there's a lot of 'conspicuous space' that suggests this IC may come with other functional blocks...you just don't know (you never do with this stuff) ; I used to hack with this sort of video signal processor gear years ago....works like this (same for '1 Chip TV' devices like this and a host of others)...the IC itself is thick as a brick, and controlled by a MCU, which boots up, initializes the video IC with configuration data and it works. On some video converters like , instead of the device MCU running the IC, you connect a RPi to it's I2C bus and control it yourself, get access to setting you can't get to from OSD menus...supply your own parameters to suit a particular conversion specification the manufacturer never thought about, as the gbs8200 is aimed primarily to arcade board type applications (and the various different input video to VGA conversion algorithms) and not the whacky screenmodes an Amiga spits out....

Decades back you may have been lucky to come across big Tektronix CRT displays used in hospital/medical/other lab equipment for video display units, being decommissioned and replaced with smaller more functional units with flat-panel LCD. The monitors were built on Sony Trinitron chassis with flat face 20" CRT and RGB-SoG (sync on green) video input. I think..what can go wrong...buy/build a a VGA->RGB-SoG converter, and be looking at a -real- CRT instead. On usenet you eventually find someone's leaked out specifics of the '' required to send timing pulses to the monitor inputs...so with this modeline in hand, configure the Xserver with it, restartx turn things on...garbage on the screen, loss of sync, shifted colours/contrast, moire patterning...wtf? What have I done wrong?...recheck all my hardware (I built a SOG circuit), shorten interconnect cabling and double-check, tear my hair out, nothing worked...but then I never suspected my S3 Virge videocard might be the problem, because it worked fine in SVGA.

I swapped in a Diamond Stealth ET4000 video card instead -- it works! (huzzah) not perfect, occasional jitter....but why? It was in the S3 video chip...you have to specify the dotclock value in the modeline, it was silently rounding the dotclock up/down to the nearest number divisible by 8...the ET4000 chip would increment the number by 1 if odd (so it got closer but not spot on) -- Sony had made the chassis Tektronix specific by use of a proprietary video chip capable of producing that exact modeline the video inputs would accept. Of course you only find out about this years later and after the fact, when the datasheets find their way out of nda and into the wild... =)

[Supernaut]

With CRT. be VERY WORRIED if the set can't do 480P....(with Amigas all you're interested in is whether the set has SCART input to accept RGBs) ; the CRT component of the set is fixed frequency doing PAL...(in computer monitor terms a fixed-sync versus a multisync) ...I'm a few pixels right on the yellow start line, but from your images above...



....they're on the same timebase -- the red & green components (which give yellow), are all moved and equal amount to the right, relative to the blue/gray/black components.

Now...the only place that can happen, is in the M61264 video processor, but because I can't find a datasheet for it (which, if it exists, will be in chinese) and only that of of the base IC design with a (as opposed to the sort of datasheet for a similar western market equivalent like series), nobody can really explain just wtf or why it's doing that...ie; is it at the programmable interface level or at a chip design limitation level (or even CRT driver hardware limitation), but for whatever reason in the real world relative to CRT technology, it's firing the red and green guns too early/late =) I know I'll be reiterating here, but if it were me I'd be straight on down to cashies to buy a dvd player or some cheap with component out, -just- to prove or disprove the case you could use (or need to use) a M61264 that works with CAV (component analog video) and not digital component video conversion...I never really thought about it...probably because Amigas were computers not consoles, the former targets monitors, the latter teevees....here with M61264 you'd suspect the RGB matrix and/or Y signal line processing being at the bottom of this..

...in a way ExtendedDefinitionTV -is- 480P ....you look at the block diagram for M61264 ; there's a lot of 'conspicuous space' that suggests this IC may come with other functional blocks...you just don't know (you never do with this stuff) ; I used to hack with this sort of video signal processor gear years ago....works like this (same for '1 Chip TV' devices like this and a host of others)...the IC itself is thick as a brick, and controlled by a MCU, which boots up, initializes the video IC with configuration data and it works. On some video converters like , instead of the device MCU running the IC, you connect a RPi to it's I2C bus and control it yourself, get access to setting you can't get to from OSD menus...supply your own parameters to suit a particular conversion specification the manufacturer never thought about, as the gbs8200 is aimed primarily to arcade board type applications (and the various different input video to VGA conversion algorithms) and not the whacky screenmodes an Amiga spits out....

Decades back you may have been lucky to come across big Tektronix CRT displays used in hospital/medical/other lab equipment for video display units, being decommissioned and replaced with smaller more functional units with flat-panel LCD. The monitors were built on Sony Trinitron chassis with flat face 20" CRT and RGB-SoG (sync on green) video input. I think..what can go wrong...buy/build a a VGA->RGB-SoG converter, and be looking at a -real- CRT instead. On usenet you eventually find someone's leaked out specifics of the '' required to send timing pulses to the monitor inputs...so with this modeline in hand, configure the Xserver with it, restartx turn things on...garbage on the screen, loss of sync, shifted colours/contrast, moire patterning...wtf? What have I done wrong?...recheck all my hardware (I built a SOG circuit), shorten interconnect cabling and double-check, tear my hair out, nothing worked...but then I never suspected my S3 Virge videocard might be the problem, because it worked fine in SVGA.

I swapped in a Diamond Stealth ET4000 video card instead -- it works! (huzzah) not perfect, occasional jitter....but why? It was in the S3 video chip...you have to specify the dotclock value in the modeline, it was silently rounding the dotclock up/down to the nearest number divisible by 8...the ET4000 chip would increment the number by 1 if odd (so it got closer but not spot on) -- Sony had made the chassis Tektronix specific by use of a proprietary video chip capable of producing that exact modeline the video inputs would accept. Of course you only find out about this years later and after the fact, when the datasheets find their way out of nda and into the wild... =)

Thanks so much again for all your help and knowledge. Very much appreciated. I think I'm starting to understand now. I have pretty much given up on ever finding my way to a service menu, searching for service manuals for TVs with that same chip has come up with nothing. I'll be getting back my old PS2 from when I was a kid this weekend, if has the exact same issue then I'll find myself a cheap DVD player from cashies or something just to see what happens. If it doesn't have the issue than I'll be happy with what I have.

[wotnot]

Thanks so much again for all your help and knowledge. Very much appreciated. I think I'm starting to understand now. I have pretty much given up on ever finding my way to a service menu, searching for service manuals for TVs with that same chip has come up with nothing. I'll be getting back my old PS2 from when I was a kid this weekend, if has the exact same issue then I'll find myself a cheap DVD player from cashies or something just to see what happens. If it doesn't have the issue than I'll be happy with what I have.

No worries, it's what this forum is about. I found a good treatise on this -- basically what you're seeing is difference between compressed (processed) YCbCr signals (what comes out of a DVD video encoder), and raw uncompressed YCbCr coming out of the consoles. The video DACs inside DVD players usually resample the video data to YUV 4.2.0 and change aspect ratio from 4:3 to 3:2 (for SDTV content), to stay within the bandwidth constraints of the PAL system (720x576) ...without having to interlace the the video output. This was why I was hoping to find a 'real' datasheet for M61264 ; it's very likely it doesn't even have the bandwidth to do this =)

[Supernaut]

So I got the PS2 and it's the same issue, although it's interesting that the blue is also shifting to the right, was a little hard to tell before I think but this screenshot shows it well:

I'm still yet to get the DVD player but thought I'd share in case it changed anything.