Reply With QuoteUncle Fester (28-05-22)
Yes, to all the other points, although pedantry is not a political strong point, unless you are in opposition. On this point, however, the Whitlam govt springs to mind, there was no clear majority as he could get nothing done because he DID NOT have clear majority and the lower house was blocking all supply. Bye Bye Gough!!!!Originally Posted by peteramjet
I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...
Uncle Fester (28-05-22)
Yeah back to 74 with Lyons very close, Labor 678 Ahead with Labor well ahead in Macnamara I guess Lyons is the one everybody will be watching along with Gilmore and Deakin
Last edited by Al Bundy; 28-05-22 at 11:54 AM.
Cheers
Ted (Al)
Really? Albo won the election. I hope they get a governing majority so they can actually govern. If they don't they'll do a deal. They always do.
Either way, we have a winner so let them get on with it. I fail to see what the issue is here, other than pedantic nit picking.
In three years time we'll have another election and the opposition will claw a little back, they almost always do. The gloss will probably be dulled a little and we'll think about rotating the tyre on the bus to the non flat side.
I can't see the ALP blowing it like they did last time and becoming so unpopular in record time that they knife two PMs again. Can anyone?
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
tristen (29-05-22),Uncle Fester (28-05-22)
Albanese promised no deals to form Government - if the ALP don’t get a majority (which I still believe they eventually will) we are in a quandary.
We don’t legally have a ‘winner’ - it’s not being pedantic or nit-picking, it is what it is.
This is why no official Ministers are yet sworn in - there is still no Government, so there can be no Ministers. We currently have a small number of interim ministers and an interim PM, in a caretaker Government, to allow necessary functions. But as a caretaker Government they cannot undertake the necessary functions needed for Parliament to fully function.
I agree. Plus the LNP have no credible senior candidates remaining - just look at their choice of leader. The ALP will remain for the foreseeable future - assuming they can get through this election
What quandary? They'll break their promise if they have to. They're politicians and they always do. They'll rationalise it and move on. As will voters.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
wotnot (29-05-22)
Yep. same'old same'old.... wash, rinse, repeat....
I think we all saw the high chance of a hung parliament for quite some time leading up to the election.
Albo saying he would make no deals made no sense to me, especially when the Teals in essence are not that much different, more in depth with climate change but Labor has the equal women thing already covered.
He just has to choose ONE Teal INDEPENDENT who seems the most aligned with Labor, two seems unlikely but still shouldn't be a problem.
Then they don't have to make any deals with a more radical entire PARTY that could stuff things up !
The Greens contradict themselves and any action towards progress with renewable energy would eventually lead to inaction with pointless infighting about compromises that need to be.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 29-05-22 at 10:55 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
enf (30-05-22)
The Teals are just labor in a ghillie suit Fester, they always were. They are just another con. Albo knows this so he'll use it. He knew it when he made that promise.
No radical green loonies this time around. As someone opposed to total socialism, I'll be content with that.....
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
I don't think you understand how our government works enf.
Lets start with the Independents. You're making a No true Scotsman fallacy claim here. That independents are facades for collecting major party votes.
It's easy to suspect that, but that is either conspiratorial thinking or it would be a kind of election fraud. Good evidence of it would be dealt with by the AEC in a very public manner if they thought it was true and were able to prove it. Remember the burden of proof is upon the claimant.
Reality is Independents are just that, independent. Some of them have never been involved with a political party, some have. The odds of independent candidates winning a clear majority are about 100:1 in Australian elections. It's not a very successful strategy if you're entering politics for the first time.
In the Senate it is even more difficult because of preferences directed by the groups. Ungrouped candidates have very very long odds of winning a seat.
Absolutely not. That would be the dumbest thing a cross bencher could do. It completely removes any real power to negotiate.have probably been made already
The major parties have a good idea which way the cross bench will lean but absolutely they make no deal with independents before they fail to win a clear majority. That would be writing a blank cheque on their part.
This statement also seriously fails to take into account how the parties think, act and negotiate.
Yes. That is EXACTLY how our government operates. The two major parties work together all the time. They talk to each other on bills and the co-operate and make changes which they can both agree on and what they think are the best decisions. This happens all the time but the media portrays only the conflict and the high contrast differences which gives the impression that they never agree on anything. The opposition isn't locked out of government and the threat of the cross bench is always there.The ALP and Coalition even do deals with each other when it suits them.
As much as I dislike The Greens they use their position on the cross bench very effectively. And in NSW the Legislative Council is a very good example of where the cross benchers work very effectively to influence the government. The Shooters, Fred Nile, The Greens and One Nation work together even if they directly oppose each other and they do work with the government to effectively steer it.
And that is the point of the cross bench. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
We saw this with John Howard, he went too far with some of his policies and even when he realised it and backed down, it was too late. His own party were too afraid of him. His own back benchers were less afraid of the the voters than their leader.
And Kevin Rudd who turned the ALP leadership into a dictatorship as the head of an internally democratic party. They tolerated it because he delivered on what he promised. Only when they accepted that he was an intollerable dictator and isolated by his staff from the party did they democratically remove him from his position in the same was as they did Julius of the Ceaser kind.
The ALP put Julia in charge. And you will remember this was a hung Parliament. Three cross benchers held the ballance and they were prepared to deal with either party to form government. Absolutely nothing was certain. The only thing certain was Tony Abbot would run the standard Liberal play.
That was that people preferred a Liberal government and he would not negotiate because the Liberal policies were in line with what the cross bench wanted anyway. You won't back a Gilard government because they're hopless.
So the cross benchers had a choice, negotiate with the ALP or give Tony Abbot the crown for nothing in return.
Julia Gilard and the ALP were prepared to give the independents almost everything they asked for. Tamworth under Tony Windsor got a shitload if new infrastructure and funding. New hospital with a great oncology ward and a Linear Accelerator. Hundreds of millions of dollars were invested in country NSW where it was badly needed. The Australian people and even Tony Windsor's own electorate hated the fantastic deals they did.
They didn't have to like the federal government major decisions, they did exactly what they were supposed to do, represent their local electorates and they did that very well.
Which planet did you just arrive from?by default untrustworthy
#1 people lie
#2 everybody lies
#3 if you don't lie or learn to live in a world of lies you're as good as dead.
#4 politics relies on lies. If they told the truth you wouldn't vote for them.
#5 even when politicians do tell the truth, YOU DON'T BELEIVE THEM.
#6 Lying is a much more effective strategy than telling the truth. If you don't realise that then it explains why your not successful in politics.
#7 Never ask a question you don't already know the answer to.
#8 Politics is kissing babies and stealing their lollypops. Yes voters are the babies.
#9 People say they would prefer to hear the truth. That is a lie !
#10 Politics is about game theory, not what you think the perfect world should look like.
#11 Your utopia is another persons dystopia.
#12 Absolute power corrupts absolutely - I already said this. A cross bench and helps prevent that.
What, you're upset that you didn't get your way?
Who are you really, Tony Abbot? Donald Trump?
Welcome to democracy where nobody gets to rule the world.
Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
Uncle Fester (30-05-22),wotnot (30-05-22)
AMEN to that !
Though you missed one point:
Money rules the world and he who has control of the energy also.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 30-05-22 at 11:30 AM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
Ummm...........geeee...they do deals with independents in advance all the time. I've seen it first hand when I worked for the government. I dunno where you get the idea that ALL of these people care about getting stuff for their electorates. Some do. Some don't give a crap and will say anything to get elected. As for Abbott and Trump, I don't even get that.
I don't know where you get the idea that I'm upset either. I'm happy enough as long as I can afford to live, and that doesn't seem to be an issue. Never has.
And as Fester says, money rules. Our politicians will sell themselves to anyone with enough cash. Especially if it keeps them in power.
Seriously? Welcome to democracy where you at least have a chance against those that rule....
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
Enf, that is the most glorious part of democracy and why Trump for example was doomed when he tried to rule the world.Welcome to democracy where nobody gets to rule the world.
Dictators hate democracy because it is such a blooming complicated mess to get anything through and the leader can't really do that much at all in a REAL democracy.
That is why Trump always got his fits and tantrums when he didn't get what he wanted and an angry child will create a lot of damage.
It is democracy itself that can rule the world, NOT any leader.
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 30-05-22 at 11:16 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
Trump was doomed because he went totally overboard in his criticism and abuse of the press. He kicked the bear, and the bear kicked back. Hard! The fact that he is a moron is irrelevant really as we got Joe the vague instead, sponsored BY the press.
Democracy is flawed, but it's the best available to maintain a shred of ones independance and freedom. The flaws in democracy are amply demonstrated by the above...that those two are the choice in the US is rather damning in my view. We are not much better, although human nature is such that we like to think that we are.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
A Dictatorship seems flawless because it does not allow disagreement and works like a machine until somebody breaks it.
When I mean somebody that could also be somebody in the administration who made errors in judgment and planing, be it the Soviet Union or the current Russian Dictator.
The flaws in democracy is what makes it strong but sometimes it needs mistakes to fix mistakes, like when democracy voted Trump.
Because nobody simply agrees with things, the right solutions evolve with time but become fundamental.
Your personal opinion on Biden has nothing to do with the flaws of Democracy.
The majority of US voters disagreed with you in their attempt to rectify the mistake made with it's former decision.
So far Biden has done very little wrong and he has brought the democratic world back together that was damaged under Trump.
It is now even stronger since the uprising of a notorious Dictator.
So in my opinion democracy is winning, at least for now unless it decides to make the same mistake twice.
I have a good gut feeling that we in Australia are now on a better path to spread democracy too (to keep this slightly more on topic
Last edited by Uncle Fester; 31-05-22 at 12:41 PM.
Update: A deletion of features that work well and ain't broke but are deemed outdated in order to add things that are up to date and broken.
Compatibility: A word soon to be deleted from our dictionaries as it is outdated.
Humans: Entities that are not only outdated but broken... AI-self-learning-update-error...terminate...terminate...
Al Bundy (31-05-22)
And now 76 Seats for Labor and maybe 77 with Gilmore, Labor leading by 142 votes there, probably a recount before that is known I'm guessing.
Cheers
Ted (Al)
enf (31-05-22)
Yeah, Sorry about that enf, I should say that you can imagine that I don't have any emotional investment when I post on politics.
My posts should always be taken like I was making a speech on one of the TV great debates. They should always be humorous making fun of dysfunction.
You're mistaking the exchange of preferences for running of candidates. There is a big difference.
Lets say for example I am am the Liberal candidate and you're an independent. I might have a good idea that I'm going to get 45% of the vote and my ALP opponents might get something similar. I can also correctly guestimate that you have no chance of winning the seat.
This is where the preferences come in and that deal has to be done before the election else your constituents might direct their votes in the wrong direction.
You have minor local issues that you're running running for or single ticket issues. In return for you directing you preferences or how to vote preferences (which aren't guaranteed votes) I will carry your issues to the government where they have a good chance of being tabled.
You might imagine if a lot of independents are running then there is a lot of deals to be done. However, if both parties think you won't pull in a significant percentage of the vote, they might just ignore or even denounce you. But if they think it is going to be a very close call, they will kiss your your arse.
That is how government is supposed to work. The local member is just that. A local representative. If you vote for a party for the party's sake or it's leaders sake then you're not making correct use of the legislative government. It's like for voting for Labor because you like the colour Red.I dunno where you get the idea that ALL of these people care about getting stuff for their electorates.
just a cheap joke. They think democracy is what they think it is.. As for Abbott and Trump, I don't even get that.
It does. Money is the fuel of politics. However if it was what fest says, Clive Palmer would either be THE cross bench or the Government. He's not, he's 5th place after One Nation.And as Fester says, money rules. Our politicians will sell themselves to anyone with enough cash. Especially if it keeps them in power.
You can buy politicians but you can't buy votes. You can however bait voters and expensive pretty lures catch more anglers than fish.
You do, the problem is that people think they don't. So many people think their vote is just a drop in the ocean and doesn't matter. It does and politicians pay very careful attention to election results. But you have to think very carefully about it. Unfortunately we don't teach children in High school how to vote and how to maximise their vote.Seriously? Welcome to democracy where you at least have a chance against those that rule....
How many people vote above the line in the Senate? They would rather be lazy and hand their vote to somebody else because they couldn't be bothered to vote below the line.
Paul Keating was another example of somebody I dislike. But, I have to admire how he handled the election. He manipulated the voters extremely effectively.
He knew they hated his guts and he was going to loose in a landslide defeat. He was doomed. But he found the one thing people hated more than him. The GST.
A new tax. And so he hammered that point home. People like me think harder about how to get rid of the GST and Keating. That's simple.
I'll vote the ALP out by putting them last on any preferences even after the Greens knowing that this will make it easier for the Libs to get into power even if I don't vote for them. To stop them getting a GST through I'll put the ALP in control of the Senate and they will block it.
Keating knew people like me would take him out, so he doubled down. He said if we lose but hold the senate majority (which was very likely) the ALP would not oppose the GST. FARK !!! That's a clever play and people like me voted against the GST rather than against Keating.
I called Keatings bluff. I knew that smug bastard would walk out of the seat and leave the taxpayers to pay for a bi-election and the ALP would be left in ruins to clean up the mess. Not voting against the GST, WTF, they could get a lot out of that situation by allowing it to pass or better blocking it forcing a double dissolution election with a very good chance of gaining back a lot of seats against a GST and without Keating to fvck it up.
Politics is not one dimensional there are many factions, topics and preferences. You have to play all the angles and every last vote is counted. Even the informal votes. What do you think politicians would do if more than 50% of votes in an electorate where informal? That's a very serious statement make by voters.
What if was only 10%? How seriously do you think the major parties take informal votes?
I used to have these kind of debates with my old man. It's one of the voting tactics I've not been able to get a good grip of so I'm always interested to hear the plays in it.
And that's the fun part about democracy Fester. When it came to the USA election of Trump vs Hillary. The voters had a choice.
Elect a sensible tyrant or an incompetent Moron.
"Hey, we've had a few tyrants already, lets give the moron a go, how much worse could things possibly get?"
In the short term it didn't seem to make much difference, but after a while people started to take the stupidity a bit more seriously.
And we can see, it was still a close call for a second term. He lost but not by as much as he should have.
For sure enf, Trump was heading right down the nationalist socialism pathway and it is rather scary to realise how easy it would have been to push a bit harder or had he had any real friends could have seriously perverted democracy even more than he did.
Dictatorships are like cults Fester. It's all good news up front, nobody ever joins a cult because they've heard about some horrible shit they do or how bad they might becomes. Dictators offer real solutions with real rewards and benefits, everybody wins. But then like any good drug we become a bit dependent. The leader needs to deliver more good stuff. If he can't then he might not want to let go or he feels only he can deliver the good stuff. And now we're on the road to hell.
The leader now feels people are trying to get rid of him and before you know it, you're working a salt mine for the leader.
This country needs me as it's dictator. Of course I do not hold myself to the exception of the above. I know that should I have absolute power, I'm the person you can then least trust with it. To think, had Putin stepped down when he should have, the world would still think he was one of the greatest Russian leaders.
Instead he's now on his way to "Vlad the Vulgar", he's off the rails. What he needs is a healthy dose of paranoia that people around him are slipping shit into his tea.
Yes I am an agent of Satan, but my duties are largely ceremonial.
enf (01-06-22)
They had another choice.... 8)And that's the fun part about democracy Fester. When it came to the USA election of Trump vs Hillary. The voters had a choice.
Elect a sensible tyrant or an incompetent Moron.
"Hey, we've had a few tyrants already, lets give the moron a go, how much worse could things possibly get?"
I'm not going to print that whole quote again.......................
And I'm not going to bore people with a history lesson on Nazism, a child of the left in fact born after WW1. It's all there to be read. The letters NAZI even derive from the German for National Socialism.
Movements like this need a cause that can be used to brainwash the young and the gullible. The extreme green movement currently is the front runner in my view, not idiots like Trump. Movements need a leader. Hitler was a clever orator. Trump is neither clever NOR an orator. People like him can rally the truly stupid, not the young. (I confess that I mischievously liked Trump for one thing...he was f*cking entertaining.)
Pounding sh!t into the heads of the young so that they actually believe that the world will end in 50 years or so is just criminal, and society destroying radical solutions very alluring to a young mind. After a long shift at the ANU in the early eighties, I came home and, through the dope smoke, watched a movie that happened to be on the tube called THE WAVE. It chronicled an experiment conducted in the US in 1969 by a history teacher.
The experiment was called The Third Wave. Stunningly, it actually happened. Read about it when you have time...it's all there.
Democracy always hangs on by a thread. The thickness is the only thing that varies. Thats why my old man and his generation put their lives on the line for it. Would we? I doubt it. Half the free world want EVERYTHING for free, and as long as they can bury themselves Borg-like into things like facebook, would be content in their matrix. Until the internet gets cut off, then they'll go apoplectic. And as Trash says, the leaders will get heavy handed to maintain power. They always do.
The fact that there's a highway to hell and a stairway to heaven says a lot about the anticipated traffic flow.
I’m glad there is now majority, that a Government can now be formed and Ministers have been sworn in.
Be interesting to see the final make up of the Senate. Appears the LNP will make up the largest group, but the Greens will likely hold the balance.
enf (01-06-22)
Firstly, I'm sorry if I'm 'replying' too much(?) on this Forum lately! (I'm medically retired hahaha & have limited thrills these days!!)...
Re: Politics in general, I tend these days to think in relatively simplistic terms, in any discussion. And 'Politics' has NEVER been one
of my strong points anyway, which leads me to say the following, in the way that my 'simple' mind (today!) works!...
MOST people, are torn between the main top 2 political parties, unless one want's to legalise Marijuana as the main agenda! xoxox
(Sorry to the Greenies etc etc)...
We 'listen' to the possible powers to be, pushing their 'Spiel', but let's face it... What is the main 'Opposition' going to say, if not to
denigrate our current Leader(s). They are never going to say... "Oh, that policy/idea sounds great & we will support that!". They are
obviously only going to say the opposite, be it good or bad for the general public? The 'public' is then torn between bull shit promises,
just because the 'opposition' does simplt that... To oppose!! Our present leaders should have more time in office, as a lot of other
countries laugh at us for having a new 'Prime Minister' etc as often as we do these days!! They need more time, & that's a fact!
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