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Thread: The YouTuber, 'Veritasium' ??

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    Default The YouTuber, 'Veritasium' ??

    I love this guy, and am amazed at the level of technical & scientific Knowledge the man has, and lovingly passes on!!!
    HOWEVER... I was put off not long ago when he went on & on for a few YouTube Posts regarding 'his' views about how
    Energy Transference / Elect Current / Electron flow / within & outside(?) 'wires' that have left a sour taste in my mouth...

    As smart as he is, I 'think' that sometimes, people that know a lot, can't help but look for solutions that are too complicated!
    Remember the old acronym... 'KISS'. (Keep It Simple, Stupid!). Well, he is not stupid, but is certainly over-thinking it!!!
    There's another old saying, about people who "Can't see the forest for the trees". Well, sometimes, what's in front in Trees!!

    Over the decades, I've heard/seen many examples where for instance, KIDS can see/find a solution to some problem, simply
    because they don't over-analyze it, where-as 'smart' adults who over-think, can miss it all together. Here's an example....
    What's the missing letter???...
    Kids always get it, but most adults struggle with it!!! (Scroll down for the 'Spoiler Alert!)
    .
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    .
    .
    .
    .
    .
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    .
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    .
    The missing letter is 'N' !! (For 'Nine')

    People seem to think that 'Current', (Electron Flow), is the Speed of Light... No..., it had nothing to do with it!!
    The 'result' at the other end of the 'wire' may be bloody quick, but only because the Electrons that are Shunted in
    one end, cause a chain reaction to pop out the other end! In fact, as a VERY rough guide, a few amps flowing in a
    wire is only 'moving' the actual Electrons at maybe 1cm /sec !! In an A/C power point in your house, the 'Electrons'
    (on load) are only jiggling back & forth by a few millimeters at the most, and go nowhere!!, but THAT movement in the
    wires etc is what generates the heat, in the likes of a light globe, having a small size & resistance.
    Stop trying to make it more complicated with terms of Quantum-Physics/Grav-Waves/Fields bla bla bla... Maybe we should
    think like some stirrers that say "Light is the absence of Darkness", instead of "Darkness is the absence of light??"

    (I'm equally sure I won't get any 'comments' here, hahaha.... )



Look Here ->
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    ...errr, why did you post the answer, I could still see it without scrolling.

    Maybe you could post a link of the actual youtube video in question

    But I am already disagreeing with you when you say that darkness is the absence of light.
    What about infra red light? It is dark but it is there and we can feel it.
    And even a Black Hole has light, it just can't escape.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 26-05-22 at 12:43 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    ...errr, why did you post the answer, I could still see it without scrolling.

    Maybe you could post a link of the actual youtube video in question

    But I am already disagreeing with you when you say that darkness is the absence of light.
    What about infra red light? It is dark but it is there and we can feel it.
    And even a Black Hole has light, it just can't escape.
    Ha!!! Sorry, I didn't put enough dummy lines underneath!! (P.S. Try it on your grandkids!!!)
    As for the rest.... You know what I meant !!!!! hahaha.... (Re: Light!!)... You know what I mean & I stand by it...
    Anyway, here's ONE example from 'Veritasium'...
    Last edited by Ah-Those-Old-Days!; 26-05-22 at 01:24 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    ...errr, why did you post the answer, I could still see it without scrolling.

    Maybe you could post a link of the actual youtube video in question

    But I am already disagreeing with you when you say that darkness is the absence of light.
    What about infra red light? It is dark but it is there and we can feel it.
    And even a Black Hole has light, it just can't escape.
    This is the same mumbojumbo from around 6months ago now ... see or for more amusement

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    I'm Too analytical! It took me until I started typing this reply to work out how the hell you got to N . My initial response was going to be "How the F*** do you get N out of that lot?"
    I'm out of my mind, but feel free to leave a message...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ah-Those-Old-Days! View Post
    Examples are always better to make a point.

    I am getting an inverse deja vu about a discussion we had here a while ago regarding current flowing through a capacitor

    What this guy is messing up is seeing energy flowing through a wire similar to through a transformer.
    The simple circuit he is using is basically a coil with a single turn so the electromagnetic field it creates will be very low compared to the actual current flowing through it and any effects to the transmission of energy so marginal that it can be usually neglected, unless we are talking about high frequency AC.


    As for darkness and light, the claim: "Light is the absence of darkness" very elegantly deals universally with that claim, while your "Darkness is the absence of light" is restrictive and requires a definition of what you call light, i.e. what humans can see.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 26-05-22 at 12:29 PM.
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    and a follow up vid from Veritasium

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    Quote Originally Posted by freakee1 View Post
    and a follow up vid from Veritasium

    Ha... His Tag-Line written across the Video on start-up, was...
    "ARE YOU NOT YET CONVINCED!!"... My reply, hahahha...


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    Yes, wotnot , I've seen that video before, and watched it again now in it's entirety, to ensure what was said there!
    I still find myself agreeing with 'ElectroBOOM', (that video poster), and in my time constraints I don't think I'm going to change.
    B.T.W.... Unless I'm mistaken(?), I can't recall your beliefs re: that topic, other than pointing to such videos?...

    To others though, who talk about transformers etc., of course current flow in a wire also produces a magnetic field, which when
    condensed enough within the likes of a transformer 'Primary' winding, (AC obviously!), then that cyclic collapsing of the Field will
    induce a turns-dependent voltage, in the secondary winding! But that is a 'transference' of power, that in no way diminishes what
    is/was happening within the wires, before or after the transformer? But that's all 'moot' to the original topic...

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    I can't recall your beliefs re: that topic
    I don't hold beliefs, because it isn't so much that belief can exist without proof ; it's that it must emphatically avoid proof to remain belief.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ah-Those-Old-Days! View Post
    Yes, wotnot , I've seen that video before, and watched it again now in it's entirety, to ensure what was said there!
    I still find myself agreeing with 'ElectroBOOM', (that video poster), and in my time constraints I don't think I'm going to change.
    B.T.W.... Unless I'm mistaken(?), I can't recall your beliefs re: that topic, other than pointing to such videos?...

    To others though, who talk about transformers etc., of course current flow in a wire also produces a magnetic field, which when
    condensed enough within the likes of a transformer 'Primary' winding, (AC obviously!), then that cyclic collapsing of the Field will
    induce a turns-dependent voltage, in the secondary winding! But that is a 'transference' of power, that in no way diminishes what
    is/was happening within the wires, before or after the transformer? But that's all 'moot' to the original topic...
    What I like about the whole - "he's right, he's wrong" thing and the level of detail in the discussion

    Derek (vertisium), Medhi (ElectroBOOM) and David (eevblog) all agree on the Maths and concepts, but have different thoughts on the actual "how" which is an amazing thing to think about in 2022

    I had a discussion with a fellow at work about the vertisium's ideas and we both wondered the what and how of electricution....... with this magnetic force........

    and to the uninitiated when explaining electricity - water through a hose works well and is an easy concept to get....... not going to waiver from that

    f
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakee1 View Post
    - water through a hose works well and is an easy concept to get....... not going to waiver from that

    f
    ...err no!

    We know that a sudden flow of electrons on one end of a wire is is passed on to the opposite end at the speed of light.

    Water is incompressible so one might think it should respond equally fast on the opposite end of the pipe to a change of pressure at it's entrance.
    It does not as the hose/pipe is not incompressible so the relatively slow flowing water needs time to fill up the increased volume as the hose expands.
    This does not happen with a wire. An important difference.
    And things get messy if you then try to create water energy transfer using 50Hz alternate 'water current' where all you might achieve is inflation and deflation of the hose
    The inertia of water is also very high compared to electrons, so a huge amount of energy is required to merely accelerate that water back and forth.

    I think it might be time to move on from those old comparisons.
    Last edited by Uncle Fester; 25-06-22 at 08:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    ...err no!

    I think it might be time to move on from those old comparisons.
    I'm up for new things - for the..umm.....stupi........uneducated, how do you explain it?

    not forgetting the KISS principal

    f
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    Quote Originally Posted by freakee1 View Post
    I'm up for new things - for the..umm.....stupi........uneducated, how do you explain it?

    not forgetting the KISS principal

    f
    It is important to look at free electrons for what they really are and not just think moving water molecules. The copper atoms in a wire are stuck together including most of their electrons.
    Only the very outer electrons are shared around as they don't feel attached to any particular molecule, so they can move freely and do so randomly at very high speed.
    Their mass is here negligible so they can be accelerated almost instantly and alternated in their direction at very high frequency.

    When a charge is applied to the ends of that wire, these FREE electrons that otherwise move randomly are FORCED INSTANTLY with a relatively slow drift in their motion towards the positive electrode.
    They become negative CHARGE CARRIERS to fill the deficiency of electrons in the positive electrode and their rate of charge through the cross section of that wire over a time period defines the CURRENT.
    The higher the applied charge (Voltage) the higher this rate of charge obviously.
    However the drift is so slow, even when there are several amps it is only a few millimetres per second. Imagines water flowing that slow and how little energy would that transfer.

    If there is a break in the wire and the electric charge (field) is high enough these charge carriers can exit the wire and collide with gas atoms to ionise them and create their own conductor, also known as a spark.

    In semiconductors there are sections of material where the atoms have MISSING electrons.
    They are called holes and when enough energy is applied, electrons hop out of neighbouring atoms into these holes so that these holes are shifted.
    This movement of holes then become POSITIVE charge carriers where they do their magic in transistors.

    There is so much more when you look beyond the water model but this is as KISS as I can do it and I bet you didn't even notice the maths I hid in there
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    ...err no!

    We know that a sudden flow of electrons on one end of a wire is is passed on to the opposite end at the speed of light.

    Water is incompressible so one might think it should respond equally fast on the opposite end of the pipe to a change of pressure at it's entrance.
    It does not as the hose/pipe is not incompressible so the relatively slow flowing water needs time to fill up the increased volume as the hose expands.
    This does not happen with a wire. An important difference.
    And things get messy if you then try to create water energy transfer using 50Hz alternate 'water current' where all you might achieve is inflation and deflation of the hose
    The inertia of water is also very high compared to electrons, so a huge amount of energy is required to merely accelerate that water back and forth.

    I think it might be time to move on from those old comparisons.
    Dear Uncle Fester... I hope you know that I really do like you, and respect you, but regarding the line of yours above, that I made Bold...
    Yes, the 'speed' of Electric Current in a wire, can be very fast... However!!, it has no correlation/relation to the "Speed Of Light" as such!!
    Light itself, yes, or radio waves etc etc... but the time between input & output of a piece of wire is a totally physical unrelated phenomenon.
    I've pointed out somewhere before though, that as to the actual electrons moving, that as a crude example, with a DC current of say 1 Amp,
    the actual 'electrons' may only be moving about say 1-Cm / Sec!! Which is also irrelevant though to cause/effect from one end to the other!
    Last edited by Ah-Those-Old-Days!; 29-06-22 at 11:14 PM.

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    Dear Ah-These-Old-Days ... please read my post #15 in it's entirety and maybe several times because every word I wrote is important and highly accurate.
    It is clearly YOU who is missing the FOREST for the trees.

    Maybe it might be clearer for you when I say that although all the outer shell electrons are free in their movement and unattached to a particular atom, their number correlates precisely with the amount of atoms in the lattice in a completely uncharged state.
    You add one single electron to that system (the conductor) on one end, then normally with the response time of the speed of light one electron on the other end wants to leave it, if it is given the opportunity to do so.
    That actual added electron will drift slowly towards that other end if more electrons are added, like I said above with a few millimetres per second. Looking roughly ballpark at a conductor of 1mm^2 in single digit ampere range.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Fester View Post
    Dear Ah-These-Old-Days ... please read my post #15 in it's entirety and maybe several times because every word I wrote is important and highly accurate.
    It is clearly YOU who is missing the FOREST for the trees.

    Maybe it might be clearer for you when I say that although all the outer shell electrons are free in their movement and unattached to a particular atom, their number correlates precisely with the amount of atoms in the lattice in a completely uncharged state.
    You add one single electron to that system (the conductor) on one end, then normally with the response time of the speed of light one electron on the other end wants to leave it, if it is given the opportunity to do so.
    That actual added electron will drift slowly towards that other end if more electrons are added, like I said above with a few millimetres per second. Looking roughly ballpark at a conductor of 1mm^2 in single digit ampere range.
    I truly thank you for your response 'Uncle', & in relation to the above 'Bold', I really do understand about 'Outer-Shell' (Valence) Electrons, and the small 'shuffle' effect
    as they 'dawdle' along in reality, inside a 'conductor' etc. However, I think you are missing my point that such movement & cause/effect from one end of a conductor
    to the other, still has no correlation to the 'Speed Of Light'? If I may be so crude, as to compare this to a "Newton's Cradle", the Dropping of the 1st ball THEORETICALLY
    transfers movement to the Last ball, instantaneously, (discounting the physical likes of ball 'compression' etc.), and all that has nothing to do with the speed of light??

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    Adding one electron to an uncharged conductor charges the entire conductor.
    The propagation of this charge is at (practically close to) the speed of light, so one electron on the other side 'instantly' wants to drop off because of this CHARGE, not any imaginative inertia of all the other electrons 'pushing' behind it.
    This has nothing to do with Newton's Cradle or water in pipes where first the inertia has to be passed on from one atom to the next and that is exactly my point why I don't like people using these comparisons because just like you, they get the wrong picture.
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