Heat Pumps

[beer4life]

From their website...one of the last q&a...

Q. How does taking energy from the atmosphere make it more efficient?

A. By using only a small amount of electrical energy to run the heat pump it can transfer 3 times this value, in heat energy from the atmosphere, into the water, giving an efficiency rating above 300% e.g. 1kW of electrical energy into the heat pump can transfer 3.6kW of heat energy into the water.


So...if the unit uses full peak priced power, (which is 3 times the price of off peak)...then the savings are zero over a conventional electric storage system.


IMHO...Solar with off peak electric boost shits all over it Sanity.

Here are the Country Energy Tariffs. Off Peak is 50%.
Does that make a difference to your calculations?

Okay...we can say that they use about a quarter of the power?

My calculator says that is still a 2 to 1 advantage in running cost even when charged at full rates.

[admin]

Viper , it has been wound out fully since day one. It takes 5 minutes to get any hot water to come out my kitchen tap so it doesnt help in saving water or my gas bill in any way or form. Filling a bath takes about an hour. My neighbours house with the same unit and setup is exactly the same.

I plan on replacing the current unit because :

1. Its shit and is a basic builder supplied unit. I know how good they are from the last house I built. Not good at all. Chances are it will shit itself in the next few years no doubt at a time when I can least afford to replace it. Its not economical , has to run flat out and as mentioned actually getting hot water is a painfull process.

2. If I can get a almost $4K unit that produces hot water for almost nothing for $600 odd dollars , its worth doing. I dont care about how much hot water something produces etc , only whether I can knock my hot water bill down to almost nothing and have enough for daily use.

[z80]

...Does that make a difference to your calculations?

It does....I can go back to where I say that a solar setup beats it because...

The solar setup has the potential to use zero electricity.
The heat pump will always use power, whether the sun shines or not...



BTW I read 6 cents vs 17c in that example. (closer to 1/3 )
It looks confusing...



And...why do they specify a 15A outlet? That's more than 1.2Kw requires...more like what 3Kw needs...

( I am obviously skeptical of Chinese built equipment...)

[MrElectricity]

And...why do they specify a 15A outlet? That's more than 1.2Kw requires...more like what 3Kw needs...

Because a 15a outlet will be on it's own circuit, if 10a was specified fools would be plugging into regular house hold power circuit and over loading to billyo.

[admin]

The solar setup has the potential to use zero electricity.

They may have the potential to use zero , but in reality the vast majority use a gas or electric boost because the sun doesnt shine 24/7. So potential aside , reality is that the sun doesnt do 100% of the job. Unless you want to spend a lot of money on a totally solar unit.

The heat pump will always use power, whether the sun shines or not...

Yes , but what I want to know is how much it uses. If the claim of $120-$150 a year running costs is correct , I would say its cheaper than solar assisted systems backed up by electricity or gas. Yes it uses power but no , it doesnt have to use a booster system. The Rheem heat pump does have a electric boost and uses power for that purpose ( as it wont operate at as low a temperature ) so its completely different to the Quantum unit.


Nomeat , can I ask what model you have ?

[Joey]

They may have the potential to use zero , but in reality the vast majority use a gas or electric boost because the sun doesnt shine 24/7. So potential aside , reality is that the sun doesnt do 100% of the job. Unless you want to spend a lot of money on a totally solar unit.



Yes , but what I want to know is how much it uses. If the claim of $120-$150 a year running costs is correct , I would say its cheaper than solar assisted systems backed up by electricity or gas. Yes it uses power but no , it doesnt have to use a booster system. The Rheem heat pump does have a electric boost and uses power for that purpose ( as it wont operate at as low a temperature ) so its completely different to the Quantum unit.


Nomeat , can I ask what model you have ?

Sanity went through this exercise recently as well , our instant gas Bosch unit was a pain in the butt , like yours it was never hot enough , took forever to deliver and used heaps of gas, average bill was around $135 per quarter.

Looked at all the alternatives and asked lots of questions until I eventually decided on a Rinnai Beasley Split Solar system with gas boosting.
What is unique about this system is that the tank SS 315L only stores hot water made by the sun , When you turn the tap on it flows through the solar infinity and only heats the water if it's 7 deg below 60c .
It doesnt matter if it a sunny day or cold day it never uses gas to heat water in the tank , only using gas to raise the temp if it is too low when you use it.
During most of our 21deg days it reached about 45deg in the tank so the gas burners barely come on the raise the temp to normal level.
For the past 3 months since install we have used $12.70 in gas .
Today was a bit hotter and by 2PM the entire 315 L in the tank was at 60Deg , this is normal for these systems so even after 4 people had a shower before 5PM the gas never came on , meaning most of the year the hot water is free.

Just received a RECS rebate from Rinnai for this system of $1815.15c , apparently this unit is the most energy efficient hot water available hence the huge rebates.
You still get the gov rebates as well .

The Rinnai infinity instant unit alone is 40% more efficient than my old Bosch unit , so even with no Sun at all the water would be hotter faster and cheaper than before , the Bosch was also one of the contractor installed pieces of junk.

[Antennaman]

So...if the unit uses full peak priced power, (which is 3 times the price of off peak)...then the savings are zero over a conventional electric storage system.

Granted, however there could be an additional minor saving if the off-peak connection is no longer required, ie no meter or supply charge, even though this would probably only equate to 50¢ daily.

[Joey]

Granted, however there could be an additional minor saving if the off-peak connection is no longer required, ie no meter or supply charge, even though this would probably only equate to 50¢ daily.

"Only" 50 cents a day is more than they quote it will cost to operate , still $182 per year or $1820 over the average 10 year expected life span of the unit , that is if energy costs remain the same for the next years! highly unlikely.

I think everyone needs to be aware that Hot Water costs most Australian's more than anything else in their home so choosing the right system is important.

[admin]

Just received a RECS rebate from Rinnai for this system of $1815.15c , apparently this unit is the most energy efficient hot water available hence the huge rebates.
You still get the gov rebates as well .

Thanks for the reply Joey .The Quantum unit is also eligible for the full $1815 in renewable energy credits along with a Victorian government rebate of $2100. Throw in some money from Krudd's ca$h bonanza and I wouldnt be paying a cent for it.

I will contact Quantum for full power use details and will get some advice from my stepfather as he is a pump dealer and will either know something about them or will find out for me.

[Uncle Fester]

They may have the potential to use zero , but in reality the vast majority use a gas or electric boost because the sun doesnt shine 24/7. So potential aside , reality is that the sun doesnt do 100% of the job. Unless you want to spend a lot of money on a totally solar unit.



Yes , but what I want to know is how much it uses. If the claim of $120-$150 a year running costs is correct , I would say its cheaper than solar assisted systems backed up by electricity or gas. Yes it uses power but no , it doesnt have to use a booster system. The Rheem heat pump does have a electric boost and uses power for that purpose ( as it wont operate at as low a temperature ) so its completely different to the Quantum unit.


Nomeat , can I ask what model you have ?

340-TC-EC

1006W rated power input, 3.6kW energy to water, 315l nominal capacity although the tank is 340l. No idea why.

Compressor would be running on average about 6h in 24h.
That would equate roughly to the $120-150 caim if you connect to off peak.
If you have the 340l and set to 65deg or more that should get you through the day, despite the "recommendation" not to use off peak and have 18h power availablity.
The safety temp mixer valve is a good idea.
They are easily adjustable to your needs and you can safely run the HWS thermostat higher which gives you more capacity, should you need it.

We have a 5 head household and I have the HWS set at 60deg and safety at 45deg.
Installed behind the kitchen so the kitchen tap runs hot after 2 secs.
We have actually been using the Quantum for more than 4 years now... my memory was a bit dusty.

[admin]

Thanks for the reply nomeat , that gives me a bit more idea. One last question , have you had any problems with it ?

[z80]

Any appliance with rotating parts is going to require more maintenance than a unit with no moving parts.

And...if those parts are Chinese then that makes it double trouble.

That's all my 2c used up...

[Uncle Fester]

Thanks for the reply nomeat , that gives me a bit more idea. One last question , have you had any problems with it ?

Only a faulty overheat sensor located on the evaporator, the coldest part in the system .
The diagnosis code showed this correctlty and I replaced it in 5mins. Took most of the time to clean the dust under the lid.

Z80, it is a fridge.
I have seen fridges running for 20years and more.
Can you prove to me that it uses a chinese compressor of very low quality?
Considering the price without rebate, somebody would be making huge profit it is was ultra cheap mass production, but who knows.
Even popular branded products are produced in the PRC, we can not escape

[admin]

But what parts arent chinese these days ( no evidence that they are ) ? Other than that , having a relative that is a pump wholesaler helps But thats something that isnt a concern until warranty runs out. Warranty is the same as the comparable Rheem heat pump unit.

Nomeat , your model isnt on the site as I suspect they have updated the models as there is one with the same capacity. This household has 4 people so I may get away with a smaller unit as I havent run out of water yet with this crappy Hardie Dux system that is only 135 litres ( due to us all showering at different times of the day ). I wont be using a temp mixer , it has been a nightmare from day one having one. The current HWS isnt far from the kitchen but it takes 5 minutes for hot water. So does the bath that is about 4 meters away from it.

[z80]

Only a faulty overheat sensor located on the evaporator, the coldest part in the system .
The diagnosis code showed this correctlty and I replaced it in 5mins. Took most of the time to clean the dust under the lid.

So your answer is yes, it failed very early in it's life.

Z80, it is a fridge.
I have seen fridges running for 20years and more.

Not a chinese one you haven't, so why try that analogy?

My Kelvinator is still running after 27 years, it's now a beer fridge.

Can you prove to me that it uses a chinese compressor of very low quality?

All chinese appliance products are of poor quality.
Yours failed as per above...and will continue failing, but you are unlikely to post when it does.
You will just keep fiddling and tinkering with it like all bargain hunters of chinese bits end up having to do.
Don't worry nomeat, I buy cheap chinese crap as well....but not water heaters or anything that requires a marital counsellor to rectify...

Considering the price without rebate, somebody would be making huge profit it is was ultra cheap mass production, but who knows.

Yes, the Aussie importers make a killing, cause that is the way of business.
Profits don't excuse poor quality by the manufacturer.

[iwacelect]

,anything that requires a marital counsellor to rectify...

ROFLMAO!

[admin]

I cant see how the conclusion has been made that its poor quality ? A faulty sensor ? If thats the extent of his issues , I dont really see a problem.

It looks like I wont get one of the rebates so if thats the case I wont be going ahead with it. But it will be on the cards in the next couple of years when the legs fall off the Hardie Dux.

[viper5150]

Viper , it has been wound out fully since day one. It takes 5 minutes to get any hot water to come out my kitchen tap so it doesnt help in saving water or my gas bill in any way or form. Filling a bath takes about an hour. My neighbours house with the same unit and setup is exactly the same.

I plan on replacing the current unit because :

1. Its shit and is a basic builder supplied unit. I know how good they are from the last house I built. Not good at all. Chances are it will shit itself in the next few years no doubt at a time when I can least afford to replace it. Its not economical , has to run flat out and as mentioned actually getting hot water is a painfull process.

2. If I can get a almost $4K unit that produces hot water for almost nothing for $600 odd dollars , its worth doing. I dont care about how much hot water something produces etc , only whether I can knock my hot water bill down to almost nothing and have enough for daily use.

Maybe the tempering valve is faulty, not saying it is but its a possibillty.

But thats not the reason it takes a long time to fill a bath. By the sound of it you are in a new house. If so they your tapware, more specifically you bath spout is the problem. With all new tapware needing to comply with WELS, the easiest way for manufacturers to comply is to fit a flow restrictor during manufacture. It is usually inside the airator. Remove the flow restrictor that is fitted and it will work so much better. Same goes with vanity and some kitchen mixers. In the kitchen, open you cupboard and check that the mini cistern cocks are open fully.

Not only will you fill a bath quicker you will also get hot water sooner.


Edit: Changing your hot water unit will NOT give you hotter water. You will still be restricted to 40 degrees because of the tempering valve, which as you know is required by law. Only way to do it is to remove the valve completely.

[z80]

I cant see how the conclusion has been made that its poor quality ? A faulty sensor ? If thats the extent of his issues , I dont really see a problem.

.

Yeah what the hell, just do it...


(it will make for a good rant in general chat later mate )

[Uncle Fester]

No rebate, why that?
I think I paid only $400 out of my pocket 4 years ago.

Quantum is an Australian company that own's it's own plant in China.
They are not using some mass produced generic China crap but their own engineered pumps and have been doing so for around 20 years.
The sensor, was an NTC resistor like you would find in thousands of different items.
It was encapsulated in resin so I don't know it's origin.
However I can remember seeing Omron relays on the rather solid looking, double sided controller board.
Omron is a 75 y/o Japanese company that produces quality components to industrial standards. You will find them in many cars and even in hospitals. I used thousands of their relays over 17 years and they had never let me down.

My Kelvinator is still running after 27 years, it's now a beer fridge.

Z80
I have seen quite a few troubled Kelvinators and was happy to leave one behind when I moved house 4 years ago.
I'm afraid you might need a martial counselor when your trusty partner suddenly decides to leave you after 27 years